Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, and Udonis Haslem all opt out

[Rockport]

You just don't get it. In L.A. or N.Y., you don't think they have Gated Communities? Again, have you ever lived or spent any amount of time in either of those cities?

I get it. Whatever you say is always right. So I'll just let you go.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I get it. Whatever you say is always right. So I'll just let you go.

Says the guy who's 100% right in another thread right?


Fine with me, I appreciate you letting this go. Thank you.

 

[jterrell]

Because in bigger markets, you wouldn't get away with what San Antonio does in San Antonio. The speed of the lifestyle is different in L.A. or N.Y., for example. Duncan would hate being in either place and I doubt he would stay in either place. For that reason alone, it wouldn't work. Or, are you going to now say that the most unselfish team's most unselfish low key player (according to you), would be a player who would fit in either of those cities?

This is one of the goofiest arguments of all-time.

Duncan would be a Hall of Famer in any city. And he would have been happy in NBA city that had Pop or a similar coach.
Money allows for plenty of things including peace and quiet.

The Spurs are over-rated right now like any team who wins a title.
The had some really bad playoff runs mixed in their title drought from 2007-2013.
But they have been consistently good overall because they had Pop and Duncan.
Duncan started the "take less" model and it paid off in this title.

The Knicks just went and got Phil Jackson to emulate what Pop has done.
Steady the organization and be consistent about improving where you can.

Any NBA team can follow the Spurs model.
Get a truly great organization builder in place and a great X's and O's coach(doesn't have to be the same guy).
Tank to get a generational superstar to build around.
Preach selflessness.

The 2011 Mavs did the same thing without the tanking. They got lucky with Dirk in a deep draft.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

This is one of the goofiest arguments of all-time.

Duncan would be a Hall of Famer in any city. And he would have been happy in NBA city that had Pop or a similar coach.
Money allows for plenty of things including peace and quiet.

The Spurs are over-rated right now like any team who wins a title.
The had some really bad playoff runs mixed in their title drought from 2007-2013.
But they have been consistently good overall because they had Pop and Duncan.
Duncan started the "take less" model and it paid off in this title.

The Knicks just went and got Phil Jackson to emulate what Pop has done.
Steady the organization and be consistent about improving where you can.

Any NBA team can follow the Spurs model.
Get a truly great organization builder in place and a great X's and O's coach(doesn't have to be the same guy).
Tank to get a generational superstar to build around.
Preach selflessness.

The 2011 Mavs did the same thing without the tanking. They got lucky with Dirk in a deep draft.

This is one of the worst reading comprehension deals of all time. Nobody ever said he would not be great in any city he played in. The question was, would Duncan ever fit in a market like N.Y. or L.A. where the media is on you all the time.

I don't believe the Spurs model would work in a big market like L.A. or N.Y. but if you do, that's fine.

 

[jterrell]

This is one of the worst reading comprehension deals of all time. Nobody ever said he would not be great in any city he played in. The question was, would Duncan ever fit in a market like N.Y. or L.A. where the media is on you all the time.

I don't believe the Spurs model would work in a big market like L.A. or N.Y. but if you do, that's fine.

The answer is an obvious yes, he would fit in any media market.
As would Pop.
He would be just as boring and dry as he is.
NY and LA media is very similar to Dallas. They love winners.
One of the media markets that treats Dirk the best is NY.

A guy that needs blinders on and can be drawn offsides by distractions like say JR Smith will always struggle in big media markets because they can't handle scrutiny but great character guys that are true gym rats with next to nothing to hide will always be fine.

KD and Thunder have built a very strong franchise in OKC but they'd be great anywhere.
It is about talent and leadership. But lack of coaching is keeping them from truly lite status.
Now the fact Brooks can't coach is openly an issue... and would be in any city, lol.

This isn't 1980 anymore. This is a national (really global) sport and society.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The answer is an obvious yes, he would fit in any media market.
As would Pop.
He would be just as boring and dry as he is.
NY and LA media is very similar to Dallas. They love winners.
One of the media markets that treats Dirk the best is NY.

A guy that needs blinders on and can be drawn offsides by distractions like say JR Smith will always struggle in big media markets because they can't handle scrutiny but great character guys that are true gym rats with next to nothing to hide will always be fine.

KD and Thunder have built a very strong franchise in OKC but they'd be great anywhere.
It is about talent and leadership. But lack of coaching is keeping them from truly lite status.
Now the fact Brooks can't coach is openly an issue... and would be in any city, lol.

This isn't 1980 anymore. This is a national (really global) sport and society.

That's right, it's not 1980 anymore. You can't hide in NY or LA but you can do that in San Antonio. I don't agree with you on this. Teams in each city are different and it effects how you can build a team IMO.

I understand you don't agree and that's fine. We disagree.

 

[LatinMind]

I think this depends on how well, Parker and Duncan hold up. Both are at the points in their careers where a drastic decline could happen at any time. I like both of those players a lot but it's going to be year to year at this point, IMO.

Duncan actually looks better then he did maybe 3 and even 4 yrs ago. He slimmed down and just looks like he understood his body better. Parker on the other hand looks like he might be on the decline. But they do have Mills and Mills splitting minutes with Parker goes along way in keeping Parker healthy. I think u will see an increase in Mills minutes this yr.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Duncan actually looks better then he did maybe 3 and even 4 yrs ago. He slimmed down and just looks like he understood his body better. Parker on the other hand looks like he might be on the decline. But they do have Mills and Mills splitting minutes with Parker goes along way in keeping Parker healthy. I think u will see an increase in Mills minutes this yr.

I would agree with that.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

A guy that needs blinders on and can be drawn offsides by distractions like say JR Smith will always struggle in big media markets because they can't handle scrutiny but great character guys that are true gym rats with next to nothing to hide will always be fine.

Think Derek Jeter.

 

[jterrell]

That's right, it's not 1980 anymore. You can't hide in NY or LA but you can do that in San Antonio. I don't agree with you on this. Teams in each city are different and it effects how you can build a team IMO.

I understand you don't agree and that's fine. We disagree.

agreeing or disagreeing has nothing to do with it.
this isn't about opinion but common sense.

duncan is the biggest star in san antonio by 1000% in la or ny he would be a b list guy that draws little celebrity interest.
arguing he is more obscure in san antonio defies all logic.

market talk is about the most overrated nonsense there is.
there are certainly issues with being in canada or perhaps utah but after that its largely homogenous.
the worst franchises the past decade were the clippers in la and gs out of oakland.
sacramento, utah, okc have all had long runs of success in tiny nba markets.
durant is the 2nd most popular player in the league out of okc...
lebron the most popular even back in cleveland.

 

[CF74]

The Spurs most definitely are. The model franchise for ANY sports team in the world to emulate.

They are a Team and a Coach.......

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

agreeing or disagreeing has nothing to do with it.
this isn't about opinion but common sense.

duncan is the biggest star in san antonio by 1000% in la or ny he would be a b list guy that draws little celebrity interest.
arguing he is more obscure in san antonio defies all logic.

market talk is about the most overrated nonsense there is.
there are certainly issues with being in canada or perhaps utah but after that its largely homogenous.
the worst franchises the past decade were the clippers in la and gs out of oakland.
sacramento, utah, okc have all had long runs of success in tiny nba markets.
durant is the 2nd most popular player in the league out of okc...
lebron the most popular even back in cleveland.

Oh it is about opinion JT. Contrary to what you might think, yours is just an opinion, just like mine. What you think is not fact. The location of San Antonio, alone, is a factor. The taxes in Texas as opposed to NY or LA is a factor.

If you don't think that living in L.A. or N.Y. is different then living in San Antonio and facing their press corps, then I'd have to guess that you also have never spent any time in either of those places. It's not the same. It's not even kind of the same. It's a different world, and there is not even a question of that but yeah, this isn't about opinion. Sure it's not.

You can try and sell that but I'm not buying.

 

[Rockport]

Reports today say LeMe wants a max contract. If true, so much for him opting out to help the team bring in other players.

 

[burmafrd]

Reports today say LeMe wants a max contract. If true, so much for him opting out to help the team bring in other players.

and of course you want to believe it. If it turns out not to be true you will ignore it since it does not fit into your reality

 

[Rockport]

and of course you want to believe it. If it turns out not to be true you will ignore it since it does not fit into your reality

I will ignore it because it wouldn't be true. Duh.

 

[jterrell]

and of course you want to believe it. If it turns out not to be true you will ignore it since it does not fit into your reality

LeBron is the best player in the game today but the amount of power he has over the league is not good for the game at all.
That part is legitimately obnoxious.

He has every right to want and to actually make the max; especially after taking less last time which also means he won't get his true max this time.
But his opting out is really a power play.
The Heat does exactly what he wants or he walks to any number of teams.
Teams would trade off 2 or 3 starters to clear cap room for him if need be.
Dirk would likely take the vet minimum(for this year with an opt out) to get him in Dallas.

I am actually floored that Wade opted out. He seems unlikely to ever recover all the money he walked away from.
Bosh is more understandable because he is both younger and a big man.
And LeBron never had any risk at all as he'll get as much money as he wants from any team he wants up to the max.

 

[jterrell]

Oh it is about opinion JT. Contrary to what you might think, yours is just an opinion, just like mine. What you think is not fact. The location of San Antonio, alone, is a factor. The taxes in Texas as opposed to NY or LA is a factor.

If you don't think that living in L.A. or N.Y. is different then living in San Antonio and facing their press corps, then I'd have to guess that you also have never spent any time in either of those places. It's not the same. It's not even kind of the same. It's a different world, and there is not even a question of that but yeah, this isn't about opinion. Sure it's not.

You can try and sell that but I'm not buying.

The statement that teams can not use the same strategy due to varying markets is an opinion.

The argument you laid out is not opinion but ... an argument. One that was logically flawed if not just untrue.
San Antonio is ALL about 2 things: The Spurs and UT. They have no bigger story.
In LA and NY they have much bigger fish to fry.
LA has all of Hollywood and USC. NY has it's own cache of celebrities and the Yankees, Giants, Mets and now Nets.
The Lakers and Knicks are huge because those organizations won over the years and built a following.
Same as the Dallas Cowboys.
(And much of the Cowboys success came when this was still a smaller market.)

Again this isn't 1990 anymore. The media is far less local and far more national.
Beyond that teams have varying degrees of media crush in the SAME CITIES.
You think the 90's Clippers had the same press as the 90's Lakers??

I travel for work and have to varying extents for years.
Cities are really very similar all over.
Teams and the players themselves are the only factor that really matters.
Miami is a very small town; that got a whole lot bigger once LeBron came to town.

In basically every sport teams have won by using the same foundation as San Antonio regardless of market.
Great coach who preaches selflessness and playing defense.
Build around a high caliber high character player with great work ethic.
Draft, scout, acquire talent that fits your system and elevate players beyond the norm.
That works in essentially any team sport.

I've seen the Stars, Mavs, Rangers, Cowboys all compete for championships and they all followed that blueprint basically.

BTW, San Antonio has grown 30% since 2000. It has well over 2 million people now.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The statement that teams can not use the same strategy due to varying markets is an opinion.

The argument you laid out is not opinion but ... an argument. One that was logically flawed if not just untrue.
San Antonio is ALL about 2 things: The Spurs and UT. They have no bigger story.
In LA and NY they have much bigger fish to fry.
LA has all of Hollywood and USC. NY has it's own cache of celebrities and the Yankees, Giants, Mets and now Nets.
The Lakers and Knicks are huge because those organizations won over the years and built a following.
Same as the Dallas Cowboys.
(And much of the Cowboys success came when this was still a smaller market.)

Again this isn't 1990 anymore. The media is far less local and far more national.
Beyond that teams have varying degrees of media crush in the SAME CITIES.
You think the 90's Clippers had the same press as the 90's Lakers??

I travel for work and have to varying extents for years.
Cities are really very similar all over.
Teams and the players themselves are the only factor that really matters.
Miami is a very small town; that got a whole lot bigger once LeBron came to town.

In basically every sport teams have won by using the same foundation as San Antonio regardless of market.
Great coach who preaches selflessness and playing defense.
Build around a high caliber high character player with great work ethic.
Draft, scout, acquire talent that fits your system and elevate players beyond the norm.
That works in essentially any team sport.

I've seen the Stars, Mavs, Rangers, Cowboys all compete for championships and they all followed that blueprint basically.

BTW, San Antonio has grown 30% since 2000. It has well over 2 million people now.

You are incorrect. Again, if we simply put all else aside, the simple fact that NY and LA have two of the very highest tax rates in the country and Texas has none, is enough to make a difference. Every city, every team, every fan base is different. You can not make a blanket statement and say that what works in one city for one organization will work everywhere. It's simply not true.

I also travel for work. Not just a little but a lot and every city is different. I could not disagree with you more.

You say great coach, great players, great character but that's not really what's being discussed here. This is not about how you go about building a team. It's more about what works in certain areas. As example, you can't say that what San Antonio did is what every team should do because every team can not duplicate what San Antonio did. You can't guarantee that you will have a player like Duncan who will play for 10 M instead of 20 M. That helps San Antonio out tremendously because it creates a lot of space for them. If he doesn't do that, they don't have the same roster and that changes everything. Not just a little but completely. They don't have a championship this year. Why did Duncan take less? Only Duncan can say for sure but it comes down to the fact that Duncan is different. He's not a guy who needs to be paid the most money. That's a credit to him. It's about who he is and how he was raised I think. Part of that is that he is not a big Lime Light guy. He doesn't really like it and he never has. That lends itself to the question of would he like playing in a fish bowl like L.A. or N.Y.? I think the answer is no. He could have gone to those teams and he could have made more money and had more press and it's ridiculous to say that he's a B star in either of those towns. If your one of the 10 best players of all time and have won 5 championships in a Basketball town, which both NY and LA are, your not a B star. Your on the A list regardless and that's how he would be treated. He's a big Star in San Antonio and I get that, it's fine but if your argument is that he's the biggest star in San Antonio, my response would be, "So What." The Biggest Star in San Antonio is nothing compared to either L.A. or N.Y. Duncan would not be happy in either of those places IMO and he has said as much in interviews.

"San Antonio has grown 30% to 2 Million." As of 2013, SA's population is estimated at 1.4 Million. L.A., the movie and media center of the world is almost 3.88 Million. NY is 8.4 Million. Basically, SA is just over 1/3 the size of L.A. and 1/6 the size of N.Y. Either way you slice this cake, your not going to make the case that San Antonio, especially the media coverage, is anywhere near the same. The quality of life, if you value privacy, is much much better in San Antonio then it is in L.A. or N.Y. and you know this. The problem here is that you are trying to argue a point that you can't defend.

It's not the same thing no matter how much you argue it is. It's just not.

 

[Rockport]

You are incorrect. Again, if we simply put all else aside, the simple fact that NY and LA have two of the very highest tax rates in the country and Texas has none, is enough to make a difference. Every city, every team, every fan base is different. You can not make a blanket statement and say that what works in one city for one organization will work everywhere. It's simply not true.

I also travel for work. Not just a little but a lot and every city is different. I could not disagree with you more.

You say great coach, great players, great character but that's not really what's being discussed here. This is not about how you go about building a team. It's more about what works in certain areas. As example, you can't say that what San Antonio did is what every team should do because every team can not duplicate what San Antonio did. You can't guarantee that you will have a player like Duncan who will play for 10 M instead of 20 M. That helps San Antonio out tremendously because it creates a lot of space for them. If he doesn't do that, they don't have the same roster and that changes everything. Not just a little but completely. They don't have a championship this year. Why did Duncan take less? Only Duncan can say for sure but it comes down to the fact that Duncan is different. He's not a guy who needs to be paid the most money. That's a credit to him. It's about who he is and how he was raised I think. Part of that is that he is not a big Lime Light guy. He doesn't really like it and he never has. That lends itself to the question of would he like playing in a fish bowl like L.A. or N.Y.? I think the answer is no. He could have gone to those teams and he could have made more money and had more press and it's ridiculous to say that he's a B star in either of those towns. If your one of the 10 best players of all time and have won 5 championships in a Basketball town, which both NY and LA are, your not a B star. Your on the A list regardless and that's how he would be treated. He's a big Star in San Antonio and I get that, it's fine but if your argument is that he's the biggest star in San Antonio, my response would be, "So What." The Biggest Star in San Antonio is nothing compared to either L.A. or N.Y. Duncan would not be happy in either of those places IMO and he has said as much in interviews.

"San Antonio has grown 30% to 2 Million." As of 2013, SA's population is estimated at 1.4 Million. L.A., the movie and media center of the world is almost 3.88 Million. NY is 8.4 Million. Basically, SA is just over 1/3 the size of L.A. and 1/6 the size of N.Y. Either way you slice this cake, your not going to make the case that San Antonio, especially the media coverage, is anywhere near the same. The quality of life, if you value privacy, is much much better in San Antonio then it is in L.A. or N.Y. and you know this. The problem here is that you are trying to argue a point that you can't defend.

It's not the same thing no matter how much you argue it is. It's just not.

False. If teams ran their organizations (top to bottom) like the Spurs do, they would be very, very successful. How can emphasizing TEAM play, unselfishness, defense and only acquiring high character players not lead to more success? I've seen TEAMS with no talent win in all levels of many different sports over hyped teams with supposedly elite players. It happens every day. It's a recipe. Take it anywhere and it will work. Take it to any country and it will work.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

False. If teams ran their organizations (top to bottom) like the Spurs do, they would be very, very successful. How can emphasizing TEAM play, unselfishness, defense and only acquiring high character players not lead to more success? I've seen TEAMS with no talent win in all levels of many different sports over hyped teams with supposedly elite players. It happens every day. It's a recipe. Take it anywhere and it will work. Take it to any country and it will work.

This might be true if TEAM play only existed in San Antonio but it doesn't. 2013 is a perfect example of this. The team you have referenced and the player you have referenced as too much ME, beat the Spurs in 2013. Clearly, that points to the fact that what you say is inaccurate. Yeah, team play will win but that's not the defining factor IMO. You say San Antonio is the model franchise but what I'm saying is that it's unrealistic to assume that every franchise can replicate that situation. Every team, every city, every fan base is different. What works in San Antonio will not necessarily work everywhere.