Escobar pick really only makes sense if

Afigueroa22

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Are you saying the o line played poorly?

No, at that time not many were comfortable with anyone to the right of Tyron. Although I didn't know who Warford was, I would've been happy with two O linemen in the first two rounds. Our best players play offense, give Romo more time to find Dez.
 

jterrell

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I don't see Witten slipping at all. What's there to lose for him, physically? He's got to be one of the slower tight ends in the league already. I would guess he can remain at his current level of production into his mid-30s.

He has already slipped. Where he got open easily now he is having to make tougher catches.
He is clearly on the downside every bit as much as Ware.
His catches and yards totals were his lowest since 2006.

No one beats mother nature.
 

Verdict

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There is no chance Gavin Escobar is ever a better player than Larry Warford. Zero. Zilch. Nada. It's not happening. They can save this post and forget about it when I'm right. In one short year it's already a laughable comparison.

And this is coming from a guy who actually liked Travis Frederick before the draft, not somebody calling him a huge reach as a 1st round projection and has now done a 180 on him. Now he's telling you don't sweat Warford. Excuse me if I don't take his word for it.

Barring unforeseen injury, Larry Warford will have a ten plus year career making the Cowboys front office look like flaming jack#@%^#.

I have heard some posts say that we didn't select Warford because he didn't fit the zone blocking scheme. I sort of have a problem with coaches not being flexible enough to utilize talent. The better teams who enjoy consistent success adapt their game plan to the players they have, not make the players fit the scheme. Teams like the Patriots do it every year.
 

jterrell

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No, at that time not many were comfortable with anyone to the right of Tyron. Although I didn't know who Warford was, I would've been happy with two O linemen in the first two rounds. Our best players play offense, give Romo more time to find Dez.

Ultimately this is the gist of it here.

Fans, who are unaware completely of what players are capable of in 2013, and had no clue how Frederick or Leary or Bern or Free would play wanted an OG.
But the OGs Dallas liked had already been drafted so they moved down to select an OC and were RAILED for it.
Except that OC is a very good young anchor that helped improve the OL immensely.

A team that couldn't dream of 3rd and short runs now eats on 3rd and short.

So basically you have the brain deads who ignore EVERY FACT except that Warford played at a high level.
Nothing else matters in their small-brained universe.

We should only draft OL because that will certainly win us games. Us and Cleveland.

The same guys who so LOVE OL. Guys who post nothing that doesn't whinge about Jerry not selecting more OL couldn't even recognize good OL players on the team they watch.

That's all you need to know.
 

jterrell

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I have heard some posts say that we didn't select Warford because he didn't fit the zone blocking scheme. I sort of have a problem with coaches not being flexible enough to utilize talent. The better teams who enjoy consistent success adapt their game plan to the players they have, not make the players fit the scheme. Teams like the Patriots do it every year.

Scheme or not he wasn't even on the board.
They simply didn't like him as a Cowboy.
He is hardly the only guy we'll not draft that can play football.

From his NFL.com draft profile....

Weaknesses
As one might imagine for someone of his size, Warford is not tremendously explosive out of his stance. He also struggles to react quickly enough to defenders who are simply diving at his legs. For this reason, running directly behind him on short yardage situations is not as successful as one might expect given his size. It's also possible that quicker defensive lineman in the NFL with active hands could give him problems due to this deficiency.
 

Verdict

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If you want to argue about defensive line depth and what we drafted the argument isn't we didn't have enough depth, the argument is that we ignored our board entirely and passed up someone that had an very high grade on the board. After a scope one would assume Spencer should have been healthy. After almost a year off for a hernia one should assume that Ratliff should be healthy. Crawford and Bass are what amounts to depth in this NFL, and they both got hurt early in camp. So find any team that has the depth to soak up 2 starters and the top two backups at a position group go down all at once. It's like saying that we should have enough depth on the offensive line to have Smith, Leary, Parnell and Weems all go down at once. The salary cap NFL team can't have that happen, unless they are phenomenally lucky, and survive it. The fact that the coaching staff found guys like Hayden and Selvie should be enough to prove at least a bit that they know what a DL for their scheme looked like. Supposedly they didn't want Floyd, I'll give the benefit of a doubt.

Same thing with Warford. I had heard a good number of draft shows talk about him very well. I would have liked us to draft him. Our offensive coaches didn't like what they figured he would bring inside our current scheme, at least for where most in this thread were wanting him drafted. After seeing what they did with the line this year and the center they drafted, wouldn't you say they should get some benefit of a doubt also?

What it comes down to for me is this, the team has actually drafted pretty well the last three years. I think they tend to go best player available when they come up. That tends to annoy a good portion of the fan base and a lot of the national analysts because they grade a draft based on their board/need charts. IIRC we drafted Dez when we didn't really need a stud WR because we thought he was the best talent on the board. We drafted Smith pretty quick after giving Free a big deal coming off of a good year, probably not a dire need for a RT at where we were picking. When you go into the draft with the mindset of I must get a DE that's where you wind up drafting guys like Eb Ekuban. The only position where I think you might let need trump pure talent a little bit is at QB. But people wanting to draft a QB and set them for 2-3 years right now have forgotten about how the new CBA works. You have to have a very good answer about your 1st round QB by the end of season three, because you have to make a guaranteed option decision then.

I agree with everything you said, but my only concern is that in not drafting a guard high we essentially went all in on Waters and paid him a lot more than our cap would suggest we were able to afford. I do give them credit for guessing right on Waters and getting him signed. I do think we have drafted pretty well in the past couple of years. So I am willing to give them a bit of a pass on Escobar. But if he doesn't supplant Witten, and save Witten's cap hit and SOON, really it didn't really improve the team, or save us cap room the way drafting a guard would have. Of course, what we don't really know is if the Cowboys thought they could get a guard in round 3 or 4 who they thought would be just as good and the stars just didn't come into alignment.
 

Risen Star

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I have heard some posts say that we didn't select Warford because he didn't fit the zone blocking scheme. I sort of have a problem with coaches not being flexible enough to utilize talent. The better teams who enjoy consistent success adapt their game plan to the players they have, not make the players fit the scheme. Teams like the Patriots do it every year.

Agreed. Though I'd argue if Leary can play the scheme Warford can to. This is simply the homer fan's rallying cry. In the summer they told me Warford wasn't any good. It's why he was there in the 3rd round. Now they're telling me he just didn't fit our scheme. Pay no attention to the results on the field. It wouldn't have worked here. Jerry and Stephen said. Go Cowboys!
 

xwalker

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I have heard some posts say that we didn't select Warford because he didn't fit the zone blocking scheme. I sort of have a problem with coaches not being flexible enough to utilize talent. The better teams who enjoy consistent success adapt their game plan to the players they have, not make the players fit the scheme. Teams like the Patriots do it every year.
Some teams like the Patriots might change their scheme based on the players that they already have on their roster.

It would be completely different to change the scheme for a player that is available in the draft but is not already part of the team.
 

jterrell

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Some teams like the Patriots might change their scheme based on the players that they already have on their roster.

It would be completely different to change the scheme for a player that is available in the draft but is not already part of the team.

It is also fair to note we spent 20 years a monster man blocking scheme and felt part of the decline in the OL was our insistence on those rare and hard to find guys that dominate 1 on 1s.

But again it is largely speculation about scheme with Warford. It could have been something medical or in the interview or any number of things. All we know for sure is that the released board we saw didn't include him at all.
Maybe the scouting staff needs to review that and learn from it but the board as it was looks really friggin good in hindsight compared to the draftnik stuff all over the web.
Not only in actual draft results but in actual NFL performance once drafted.

Escobar has a long way to go to win people over but that draft board was strong top to bottom.
 

xwalker

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It is also fair to note we spent 20 years a monster man blocking scheme and felt part of the decline in the OL was our insistence on those rare and hard to find guys that dominate 1 on 1s.

But again it is largely speculation about scheme with Warford. It could have been something medical or in the interview or any number of things. All we know for sure is that the released board we saw didn't include him at all.
Maybe the scouting staff needs to review that and learn from it but the board as it was looks really friggin good in hindsight compared to the draftnik stuff all over the web.
Not only in actual draft results but in actual NFL performance once drafted.

Escobar has a long way to go to win people over but that draft board was strong top to bottom.

It does seem odd sometimes when a player is completely off the board as compared to just ranked lower (i.e. They could have ranked Warford as a 7th round pick).

They said going into the draft last year that they were going to decrease the size of their board from something like 240 players to 120 players. They wanted to be able put more focus on each individual player on the board. They have had many draft busts in the past because they didn't do a detailed evaluation of the mental-makeup of that player. They didn't do any background/personality research on Bobbie Carpenter, Jacob Rogers, Robert Brewster, Jason Williams, etc.. Carpenter and Rogers didn't like the physicality of football. Brewster was lazy and didn't like football. Jason Williams could not learn coverages and despite being a LB in college, was not required to play coverage. His college team referred to him as a standup-lineman.

IMO, way more of the Cowboys bad draft picks failed due to poor mental-makeup than picks that failed due to a lack of physical ability.
 

Hoofbite

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Why would that be irrational exactly?

I fail to see how saying, "We have a good opportunity to address the OL by adding two pieces." is irrational but "I refuse to draft 2 OL in a row" is somehow rational.

I was agreeing with you.

OL was the weakest spot last offseason and ignoring because you can't justify picking 2 OL in a row is irrational.
 

FLcowboy

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Look at the roster on the day that Escobar was drafted.
D-line looked legit at that point.

That's a good point, lost in the events that occurred during the year. Ratliff, Spencer coming off a monster year, Carter finally playing on par with Lee, Brent a solid front man, Carr and Claiborne both healthy, what the heck, We all thought the defense was set
 

Future

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As opposed to Center, Backup TE?

There's nothing wrong with spending a 1st and 2nd on a guard. What would it have changed? Would we have gone 7-9? 6-10?
You have to get impact players in the first couple of rounds. Interior OL simply aren.t
 

Future

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Not worth responding. When I see a fan who undervalues the line play, I just Deniro smile, say "okay" and hope he goes away.
How's the Browns offense doing after taking Thomas? The Dolphins after Long? Were the Lions better this year with Warford?

Making the trenches the sole prioriety leaves you with great line play that allows playmakers to do their thing, and no playmakers.

FWIW, in the last two drafts, the remaining teams have combined to take just 2 OL in the first two rounds.
 
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TheCount

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You have to get impact players in the first couple of rounds. Interior OL simply aren.t

Absolutely. Frederick had no impact on the success of the line this year.

We've spent plenty of early picks on guys that made no impact. It's about the players, not where they're taken.
 

trueblue1687

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[quote="CowboyFan4Eva, post: 5412225, member: 37736insiders"?]It has sucked for the majority of his ownership of the Dallas cowboys. When he first bought it, the deal between him and JImmy Johnson was jerry does the business, and jimmy does the football......

Well, that changed after a few years.......and jerry decided he wanted to be football guy too......and jimmy just Left.
And we have scene what GM Jerry is all about..........sad really. Business Jerry is awesome......

This is all well documented.......surprised you don't know this.....[/quote]

Documented by whom? You? Or the all knowing media "i
 

jterrell

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It does seem odd sometimes when a player is completely off the board as compared to just ranked lower (i.e. They could have ranked Warford as a 7th round pick).

They said going into the draft last year that they were going to decrease the size of their board from something like 240 players to 120 players. They wanted to be able put more focus on each individual player on the board. They have had many draft busts in the past because they didn't do a detailed evaluation of the mental-makeup of that player. They didn't do any background/personality research on Bobbie Carpenter, Jacob Rogers, Robert Brewster, Jason Williams, etc.. Carpenter and Rogers didn't like the physicality of football. Brewster was lazy and didn't like football. Jason Williams could not learn coverages and despite being a LB in college, was not required to play coverage. His college team referred to him as a standup-lineman.

IMO, way more of the Cowboys bad draft picks failed due to poor mental-makeup than picks that failed due to a lack of physical ability.

I would wager that isn't just a Cowboys thing.
Very few guys get drafted lacking NFL measurables unless they've insanely outproduced those numbers in college.

The mental part of it is far more likely to be the cause of issues.
You really must have a ton of 'want to' to get by in the NFL.
It shocks us that guys like Jonathon Martin or Jacob Rogers would rather go to school than play in the NFL but someone had ot have an inkling those guys were not into football.
 

jterrell

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Man, didn't realize a thread about Gavin Escobar could make people so feisty.

This is an 8-8 team that is far worse now then when they lost to the Eagles because of the free agents they have and lack of salary cap.
It is going to be a long off-season.
 
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