ESPN: Four Cowboys on decade's 25 most overrated players

burmafrd

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Everlastingxxx;2828846 said:
I have posted highlights of Cowboy players, many times. I wanted to support my ORIGINAL post to which i when you review it, i was right. And i am on break, i have some down time. And i really couldn’t give a ratass if you think i am a true fan or not.

Tnew has made hundreds of plays over his career to stop catches one way or another. Somebody then goes around looking for the handfull he has allowed and thinks that means something. Talk about stupid.
 

Everlastingxxx

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burmafrd;2828903 said:
Tnew has made hundreds of plays over his career to stop catches one way or another. Somebody then goes around looking for the handfull he has allowed and thinks that means something. Talk about stupid.

I didn’t have to go looking, those were the ones i remembered. And you shouldn’t insult yourself like that, think good thoughts about yourself.
 

BAT

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41gy, it was a pleasure. You do bring up some very valid points (ie # of TDs scored against).


As for his slot prowess, I agree that Newman is very good over the slot, but Renfro and Green were doing that in their day as well, except the position was not called nickelback, it was called safety. :D
 

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BAT;2829094 said:
41gy, it was a pleasure. You do bring up some very valid points (ie # of TDs scored against).


As for his slot prowess, I agree that Newman is very good over the slot, but Renfro and Green were doing that in their day as well, except the position was not called nickelback, it was called safety. :D


I appreciate you not thinking I"m psycho. :)

Darrell Green was great for sure. I still remember him running Tony Dorsett down from behind. I watched the game where Dorsett got his 99 yard TD against the Vikings. I was really young when Staubach was playing, so my memories of the late 70s games are pretty slim. The only thing I remember about Refro is what I saw on NFL Films. I remember him in his blue jersey in the Colts game. I'm going to research him.

I was looking back at some of the 2006 games because I wanted to make sure my memory was correct and I wanted to see the Lions game in particular. There were 4 TD passes in that game for Kitna. I thought Newman gave up 2, but the one to Mike Furray was on Akin Ayodele. Ayodele didn't stick to his man and Newman came off his man and tried to get there but he couldn't. Newman was playing the outside guy who ran a pattern inside. Two of them came against Aaron Glenn, and Roy Williams scored both of them. Newman gave up a TD to, gulp, Mike Williams,

Hey, that's not a bad trade off for getting DeMarcus Ware. I'll take that trade off.

I looked back at Manning's throw to Marvin Harrison, and Newman was all over him. Harrison only had the space that a CB has to give a WR. That throw was special. The window was micro-tiny. Manning threw that ball over Newman's and Harrison's head where only his guy could get it. Harrison stretched both arms out, caught the ball, started to fall and roll, and Newman was all over him.

Newman took Harrison and Clark all day long and gave up one play. That isn't bad at all. Plus, Dallas put up the goalline stand after that great play, and I remember the anouncer calling Newman out for good coverage on one play near the goalline. Manning had four cracks at the endzone, but Dallas held on 21-14. I loved that game, because I saw up close how good Manning was for four years.

Dallas did have a bust when Reggie Wayne and the other WR crossed, and Newman and Henry both took the inside, crossing guy. AdamJT13 could probably tell you who the bust was on, but Newman got knocked pretty hard on that one punt. He probably had a slight concussion.

Oh, well. 21-14 is all that matters. That bust wasn't a reflection of Newman's cover skills, anyway.

They flat out took a pick six away from Roy Williams in that Lions game. Newman hit that guy with his shoulder, not his helmet. The refs blew the call and took 7 away from Dallas and Detroit ended up with 3. Newman had a nice punt return for a TD.

Roy Williams had a nice pick on the goalline against the Colts to stop them from scoring during that game.

Always nice talking football with you.
 

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Idgit;2828528 said:
Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I could have seen an OPI flag go down on that play.

I think it was just a well executed play overall and I have no problem with a CB occasionally getting burnt when he's right in position and trying to make a play on the ball. Half the time that same throw is a pick for Dallas.




Ding. Ding. Ding. I'm glad you said it, because I didn't want to.


Same here. I was just making sure I remembered the play right, because the last time I saw it, it was from the endzone camera on ESPN.

I agree with you, and I think Newman's job description is much tougher than Champ Bailey's and Asante Samuel's job description. Again, those two guys can't run with Jackson in the open field. It would have gotten a whole lot uglier for them in man coverage.

That is the life of a CB in man coverage, especially out of the slot where that Jackson play occurred. That definately isn't a typical play for Newman. Jackson put an inside move on him, but Newman turned and caught him. The race was on.

Jackson will have something to tell his kids about. He better get the video, because Newman will get his revenge, twice.

That is one reason why I think Newman is better than both of them (Bailey and Samuel). Samuel is a zone CB, and Bailey has played man coverage, but he has made a name for himself staying close to the sidelines. Plus, teams have been very successful in attacking him deep. There are some stats from Joyner that show this. Plus, I've seen him get beat deep more than a couple of times. Bailey plays significant zone, too. There are still man concepts in zone, but you only have an area of field to cover.

That is what I meant when I said Newman is in the top 2 CBs in the NFL if you eliminate the two zone CBs rated ahead of him in that PFW survey.
 

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41gy#;2829230 said:
Same here. I was just making sure I remembered the play right, because the last time I saw it, it was from the endzone camera on ESPN.

I agree with you, and I think Newman's job description is much tougher than Champ Bailey's and Asante Samuel's job description. Again, those two guys can't run with Jackson in the open field. It would have gotten a whole lot uglier for them in man coverage.

That is the life of a CB in man coverage, especially out of the slot where that Jackson play ocurred. That definately is a typical play for Newman. Jackson put an inside move on him, but Newman turned and caught him. The race was on.

Jackson will have something to tell his kids about. He better get the video, becasue Newman will get his revenge, twice.

That is one reason why I think Newman is better than both of them (Bailey and Samuel). Samuel is a zone CB, and Bailey has played man coverage, but he has made a name for himself staying close to the sidelines. Plus, teams have been very successful in attacking him deep. There are some stats from Joyner that shows this. Plus, I've seen him get beat deep more than a couple of times.

That is what I meant when I said Newman is in the top 2 CBs in the NFL if you eliminate the two zone CBs rated ahead of him in that PFW survey.

Dude, I swear you're Terence Newman.
 

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Apollo Creed;2829235 said:
Dude, I swear you're Terence Newman.


I'm not TNEW, but he's my favorite player for sure.

They need to make the TV screens bigger, so you can see what's going on down field. :)

Pound for pound, Terence Newman VS Steve Smith is the best WR/CB matchup in the NFL.

Asomugha vs Larry Fitsgerald would be another good one.

You got me before I could correct all my editing mistakes. I always jump the gun, and sometimes I don't catch stuff.
 

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Flozell Adams was on Paul Zimmerman's (SI.com) 2007 All Pro Team, too.

Zimmerman calls NFL people and gets input on his All Pro Teams. I know Newman has made it twice that I know of.

In 2007, these Cowboys were on Dr. Z's team:

Flozell Adams
Jason Witten
DeMarcus Ware
Terence Newman

Overrate that!

Flozell Adams was flat out dominant in 2007. He dominated Osi Umenyiora and Trent Cole, twice. He dominated everyone, and may was definately one of the best LTs in the NFL, top 5 easy during 2007.

The guy has been a very good LT, and he wasn't picked in round 1.

Adams was picked in round 2. People need to remember that fact. He wasn't a top 10 pick or first round pick.

If he's healthy, there might be some 2007 beatdowns in the NFC East this year, and it will not be the first time.
 

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41gy#;2829301 said:
Flozell Adams was on Paul Zimmerman's (SI.com) 2007 All Pro Team, too.

Zimmerman calls NFL people and gets input on his All Pro Teams. I know Newman has made it twice that I know of.

In 2007, these Cowboys were on Dr. Z's team:

Flozell Adams
Jason Witten
DeMarcus Ware
Terence Newman

Overrate that!

Flozell Adams was flat out dominant in 2007. He dominated Osi Umenyiora and Trent Cole, twice. He dominated everyone, and may was definately one of the best LTs in the NFL, top 5 easy during 2007.

The guy has been a very good LT, and he wasn't picked in round 1.

Adams was picked in round 2. People need to remember that fact. He wasn't a top 10 pick or first round pick.

If he's healthy, there might be some 2007 beatdowns in the NFC East this year, and it will not be the first time.

I agree completely. I actually think Flo is gonna dominate this season.
 

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41gy#;2829184 said:
I thought Newman gave up 2, but the one to Mike Furray was on Akin Ayodele. Ayodele didn't stick to his man and Newman came off his man and tried to get there but he couldn't.
Off topic, but I couldn't help noticing this part of your post and thinking back to one of the most aggrivating recent plays in the past few years.

I think I still have a pre-snap video capture of that play somewhere on my computer which I had posted on another board asking anyone to explain to me why the Cowboys defense was in its base 3-4 when the Lions were in a 3 WR set...with Ayodele covering Furrey.

Yeah...think about that...Ayodele covering Mike Furrey. Of course he didn't stick to his man.


By the way, just as a side note, a certain receiver named Roy Williams had 6 catches for 104 yards and 2 TDs that day against the Cowboys defense....and he was the # 1 receiver on the Lions depth chart that year.
 

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Just an fyi 41gy, but Zimmerman's All Pro is not the official one.


I seem to recall Z talking up Mario Edwards (yeah, THAT Mario Edwards) as one of the NFL's best corners one year. And he used similar metrics to back him up.
 

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The Dodger;2829387 said:
Off topic, but I couldn't help noticing this part of your post and thinking back to one of the most aggrivating recent plays in the past few years.

I think I still have a pre-snap video capture of that play somewhere on my computer which I had posted on another board asking anyone to explain to me why the Cowboys defense was in its base 3-4 when the Lions were in a 3 WR set...with Ayodele covering Furrey.

Yeah...think about that...Ayodele covering Mike Furrey. Of course he didn't stick to his man.


By the way, just as a side note, a certain receiver named Roy Williams had 6 catches for 104 yards and 2 TDs that day against the Cowboys defense....and he was the # 1 receiver on the Lions depth chart that year.

Yes. That wasn't a good day for the Dallas defense. However, the Lions had field position all day long after poor special teams and some turn overs. The Cowboys' defense was in disarray but put it together in the wildcard game and gave the team a chance to win.

The Saints exposed the weakness of the Cowboys, and Ellis' absence compounded it. Drew Brees did a number on the Cowboys.

Back to that Ayodele play:

The Cowboys were in base D, but if you watch that play, Aoydele completely falls asleep. He's on top of the WR and just falls asleep, and the guy sneaks off.

Parcells liked to stay in base D as much as possible. It was a battle of style and wills.

Parcells' style should have won in the wildcard game. I think Dallas would have beaten Chicago but another game against the Saints would have been tough.

I think Parcells would have benefited with a younger 34 defensive coordinator. It would have taken stress off him, too.
 

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BAT;2829765 said:
Just an fyi 41gy, but Zimmerman's All Pro is not the official one.


I seem to recall Z talking up Mario Edwards (yeah, THAT Mario Edwards) as one of the NFL's best corners one year. And he used similar metrics to back him up.


Dang, Bat.

You Mario Edwards me. :rolleyes:


I was glad to hear Matt Mosley and Randy Galloway disagree on the "Terence Newman is "overrated'" issue on that ESPN driven Football Outsiders list.

Putting Newman on that list was a joke and an insult to him and the fans. According to AdamJT13, some of Football Outsiders methods for rating CBs are suspect. K.C. Joyner is the best in the business.

Newman has been very underrated. He can't even get an "Honorable Mention" on the Cowboys 50 Greatest Players on DallasCowboys.com for crying out loud.

Anyway, glad to see Mosley and Galloway get it right. I wish they would have defended him more though. However, I'll take it. They disagreed.

I can understand why Brian Boddadus isn't scouting now after I listened to him misdiagnose Newman's play.

Pro Football Weekly's 2009 survey of NFL GMs, scouts, and NFL personnel people put Newman in the top 5, and they got it right.
 

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Tovya;2829338 said:
I agree completely. I actually think Flo is gonna dominate this season.


I think if he can just get close to that level, Dallas should be fine.

Auburn changed coaches, and I"m not sure they upgraded at all.

Tuberville's offense hurt him in recent years, but that guy is a great coach and was beating "Bama.

Nick Saban changes things for sure.
 

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BAT;2829765 said:
Just an fyi 41gy, but Zimmerman's All Pro is not the official one.


I seem to recall Z talking up Mario Edwards (yeah, THAT Mario Edwards) as one of the NFL's best corners one year. And he used similar metrics to back him up.


On that again:

I read the article where Dr. Z talked about how he picked the 2007 team. He went with Newman first and had settled on Cromartie, one of the AP All Pros.

He changed his mind at the last minute on Cromartie.

He liked Will Allen and went with him after calling NFL guys, again.

Zimmerman does use YPA, but he also consults NFL people before he chooses.
 

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BAT;2829765 said:
Just an fyi 41gy, but Zimmerman's All Pro is not the official one.


I seem to recall Z talking up Mario Edwards (yeah, THAT Mario Edwards) as one of the NFL's best corners one year. And he used similar metrics to back him up.


Bat, you got me to thinking about the All-Pro Team. I went back and did a little digging on Mr. Ronde Barber. The guy has lived in the Pro Bowl.

Ronde Barber was on the AP All Pro Team three times from 2004-2006. He was first team in 2004 and 2005 and second team in 2006.

Football Outsiders (an ESPN outfit) claimed that Terence Newman didn't make enough plays on the football or get interceptions or passes defensed. Also, they had that ridiculous claim that Newman "keeps WRs in front of him". Also, they claimed teams didn't "avoid" Newman even though Anthony Henry led the NFL in targets, with 100+ (2006), according to K.C. Joyner.

No, players like Ronde Barber and Asante Samuel have made careers out of sinking deep into cover 2 and cover 3 and jumping routes or the ball in front of them. Newman has been the guy playing heavy man to man coverage while playing for the Cowboys.

We'll, I've already compared Newman's career interception total (totals since 2003) with the other CBs in Pro Football Weekly's 2009 top rated CBs survey and showed a strong or close comparison, in the totals, between the highly regarded players.

Here are Ronde Barber's and Terence Newman's career INT and Passes Defensed Totals since 2003 according to NFL.com.

Ronde Barber:

19 Interceptions

67 PD

5 TD


Terence Newman:

20 Interceptions

77 PD

1 TD


Terence Newman has proven that he does have good ball skills just like the 2009 Pro Football Weekly survey stated. He has more interceptions and passes defensed than Ronde Barber since 2003, a three time AP All Pro. Plus, Newman accumulated his totals in these areas and did it playing in a heavy man to man scheme.

Both players play the slot, but Barber plays man concepts in a zone. He thrived by sinking deep into Tamp Bay's cover 2 and closing on the football in front of him or jumping routes. The zone scheme increases your opportunities to jump routes. Newman has been the guy playing with his back to the football in man coverage and covering the shallow, intermediate, and deep thirds of the football field in man coverage. Plus, he does that out of the slot where there is no sideline help. Plus, the Dallas safeties have been suspect in coverage though out Newman's career.

Ronde Barber is a cover 2, zone CB. He has been responsible for the shallow flats and for a vertical area from around the numbers to the sidelines. His safety help is responsible for helping him in the deeper parts of his vertical zone.

When Steve Smith has played Tampa Bay, he has lit them up in the past for monster games, because Barber isn't fast enough to play him all over the football field and the scheme is designed to protect him.

One player doesn't have the skill set to take a player like Steve Smith all over the football field and shut him down, and one player does.

Furthermore, that player, Terence Newman has shut down Smith, an All Pro himself, three times, and he did it twice by taking him all over the football field.

Again, Newman's job description is much tougher than Asante Samuel's, Champ Bailey's, and Ronde Barber's. Samuel and Barber are pure zone CBs. Bailey thrives in zone, but he has played man to man during his career.


I added the INT returns for TDs. Barber has 5 while Newman has 1.

Ronde Barber's INTs for TDs have helped him get positive recognition and Pro Bowls. That is the number one thing the media has used to crown "the best CBs" over the years. (see DeAngelo Hall's two Pro Bowl selections 2005 and 2006). Nnamdi Asomugha has been the exception to the rule. Barber is a real good player; however, he's a zone CB. His job is easier, and the scheme he's in allows him to play aggressive and jump routes.

On the other hand, Newman has been quieter in terms of INTs for TDs, but his outstanding cover skills, elite speed, and exceptional athletic ability have allowed him to make plays on the ball and erase some of the top WRs and TEs in the NFL. Terence Newman thrives in man to man coverage.

Newman can be a silent assassin, too. He can negate a guy like Steve Smith or Santana Moss, and you would never know he was there.

That wins football games, because it keeps points off the scoreboard.

I wonder what Football Outsiders thinks about the three time All Pro Barber, because Newman is the better, more talented player.



Rafeal Vela calculated their four year average YPA (from 2004-2007) in his analysis of K. C. Joyner's YPA stats.

Barber (6.3 YPA) (tied for third)

Newman (6.2 YPA) (2nd place)

One guy did it in the Tampa 2, and one guy did it playing in a heavy man to man scheme.

Who had the tougher job description?

Terence Newman


Yeah, Dr. Z's All Pro list isn't official, but it can highlight a player such as Newman, a player the mass football media has ignored to a great degree and now likes to attack in the case of this ESPN.com article, ect... This wasn't the first attack from the ESPN outfit.
 

BAT

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First of all, not a Barber fan (either of them). But it is what it is (talking about scheme & responsibilities), Ronde (and most cover 2 corners) is really a safety, but .1 yd is not much of a difference in terms of ypa. If its THAT close, you take the player that fits your scheme, or in the case of the All Pro selectors (official ones that is), you take the playmaker (5 INTs vs. 1 INT), or winner.


And yeah I know Z consults "experts", but Z used the same methods to choose Mario Edwards. Seriously, that was not good.:D
 

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41gy#;2830235 said:
Football Outsiders (an ESPN outfit)
Football Outsiders isn't an "ESPN outfit." They do write some stories for ESPN, but they write stories for other people as well.
 

burmafrd

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Barber gave up more big plays then he made. newman did not. End of story.
 
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