ESPN: Goodell's Conduct Policy Has Some Gray Areas

superpunk

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Good article.

*****' a, Peter.

***** a.

You cannot have a system wherein the punishments for your actions are unclear, or subject to whimsy and personal opinion. We've spent thousands of years of human existence establishing that, and it's unreasonable to throw it out simply because we cannot abide "thuggery." There MUST be a clearly established conduct policy with clearly established levels of punishment (tiered systems seem effective). You can't have one man wielding dictatorial power with no established guidelines to check him.
 

Hypnotoad

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theogt;1530741 said:
Because there's utility in knowing what punishment will follow from your actions. Knowing the possible consequences of your own behavior is fundamental to an organized, functioning society.

If you want to override consistency, then you should have a valid justification. Your justification appears to be deterrence. But you can have deterrence with consistent punishment. So the question is, how does deterrence justify inconsistency? Or do you have another justification for inconsistency?

This isn't the criminal justice system where theres a seemingly never ending flow of criminal activity. There is a very small number of players who commit punishable activity. Each player is unique and have a specific set of circumstances. These circumstances must be discussed with the team owner, with the union, with the coaches, with lawyers, and with the player.

My point is clear, going to stop arguing it now. But id like to add, If Floyd Reese "guarantees it" then I shouldn't question it.
 

theogt

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superpunk;1530743 said:
Good article.

*****' a, Peter.

***** a.

You cannot have a system wherein the punishments for your actions are unclear, or subject to whimsy and personal opinion. We've spent thousands of years of human existence establishing that, and it's unreasonable to throw it out simply because we cannot abide "thuggery." There MUST be a clearly established conduct policy with clearly established levels of punishment (tiered systems seem effective). You can't have one man wielding dictatorial power with no established guidelines to check him.
Thankfully we have burmafrd to set us on the right path after so many years of wondering through the desert.

Hypnotoad;1530744 said:
This isn't the criminal justice system where theres a seemingly never ending flow of criminal activity. There is a very small number of players who commit punishable activity. Each player is unique and have a specific set of circumstances. These circumstances must be discussed with the team owner, with the union, with the coaches, with lawyers, and with the player.

My point is clear, going to stop arguing it now. But id like to add, If Floyd Reese "guarantees it" then I shouldn't question it.
You're still dodging the question. How does this at all address what I'm asking?
 

Bob Sacamano

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theogt;1530717 said:
No, it doesn't. It overturns them if they overstep their boundaries. Who overturns Goodell if he oversteps his boundaries? Oh, that's right -- appeals are made directly to -- GOODELL.

But let's go with a classic, two wrongs make a right point. That always works, right?

Hence, the article.

Goodell has yet to overstep his boundaries

but keep expecting it so you can say you told us so
 

theogt

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Bob Sacamano;1530881 said:
Goodell has yet to overstep his boundaries

but keep expecting it so you can say you told us so
I guess you didn't read the word "if." The system doesn't actually have to fail before you can point out its flaws.
 

Bob Sacamano

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burmafrd;1530734 said:
Consistent? HOW? Unless the player committs the SAME infraction, etc in exactly the same way, how do you make it consistent?
By the way my high school analogy is slightly wrong. I should have said your experience with the judicial system is probably the same as going to a high school game then claiming to know all about all football from jr high to the pros.

they're talking about consistent as in handing down consistent penalties, and they have a point, why was Tank only suspended for 8 games when he, unlike PacMan, was convicted of a crime? because he was contrite?

I see the logic behind Goodell's move, as it is numerous brushes w/ the law in PacMan's case, it's obvious he needs outside influence in order to behave, or at least point him in that direction, and I see the logic behind the consistency argument, although at this stage, I don't think it's that big a deal, because I think Goodell needs to come down hard on these repeat offenders of the conduct policy
 

burmafrd

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As long as a player knows he is going to get suspended for a considerable number of games if he acts really stupid, what else matters? The smarter ones will shape up, the stupid ones keep getting suspended and eventually permanently banned.
 

Bob Sacamano

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theogt;1530882 said:
I guess you didn't read the word "if." The system doesn't actually have to fail before you can point out its flaws.

no doubt, and I see the main one, the consistency of the suspensions given out
 

burmafrd

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It seems to me clear that Tank acted differently once he was out of prison and made it a point to try and look and act differently then Pacman and Henry. To me that seems to be the reason why he got off relatively lightly. Just like in the judicial system that some here seem to worship. Contrition often gets a lighter sentence. How is that for consistency?
 

Bob Sacamano

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burmafrd;1530887 said:
It seems to me clear that Tank acted differently once he was out of prison and made it a point to try and look and act differently then Pacman and Henry. To me that seems to be the reason why he got off relatively lightly. Just like in the judicial system that some here seem to worship. Contrition often gets a lighter sentence. How is that for consistency?

I actually think it's a combination of contriteness on his part, and the fact that he paid his debt to society already
 

theogt

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burmafrd;1530885 said:
As long as a player knows he is going to get suspended for a considerable number of games if he acts really stupid, what else matters? The smarter ones will shape up, the stupid ones keep getting suspended and eventually permanently banned.
So why not give out consistently harsh punishment? What problem do you have with punishing a guy that was convicted of a crime?

burmafrd;1530887 said:
It seems to me clear that Tank acted differently once he was out of prison and made it a point to try and look and act differently then Pacman and Henry. To me that seems to be the reason why he got off relatively lightly. Just like in the judicial system that some here seem to worship. Contrition often gets a lighter sentence. How is that for consistency?
Sometimes spending time in prison works. Sometimes it doesn't. We won't know about Tank until a few years from now.

Bob Sacamano;1530888 said:
I actually think it's a combination of contriteness on his part, and the fact that he paid his debt to society already
But what about his debt to the league? The league's image was tarnished and now it looks like it goes light on ex-convicts. That makes no sense.
 

burmafrd

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Got no problem with any of the punishments handed out. You seem to be the one with the problem.
 

theogt

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burmafrd;1530895 said:
Got no problem with any of the punishments handed out. You seem to be the one with the problem.
I'm trying to say Tank's wasn't harsh enough and you seem to be disagreeing. Either you agree with me or not.
 

Bob Sacamano

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theogt;1530892 said:
But what about his debt to the league? The league's image was tarnished and now it looks like it goes light on ex-convicts. That makes no sense.

I'm trying to see the logic behind it, not saying I agree w/ it, but that's the only thing I'm coming up w/, also, maybe because it's Tank's only transgression as opposed to 4 or whatever for PacMan, I don't really know, nor do I care, I'm just glad PacMan's punkarse got pounded

if it doesn't make sense, whatever, you do better trying to figure it out
 

burmafrd

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Tank got suspended a good number of games. No problem for me. You, OGT, are the one whining about inconsistancy. As far as I am concerned I see none. Just trying to explain why Tank got 8 games for being convicted. I think it was his contrition that made the difference- VS Pacman and Henrys defiance.
 

theogt

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Bob Sacamano;1530897 said:
I'm trying to see the logic behind it, not saying I agree w/ it, but that's the only thing I'm coming up w/, also, maybe because it's Tank's only transgression as opposed to 4 or whatever for PacMan, I don't really know, nor do I care, I'm just glad PacMan's punkarse got pounded

if it doesn't make sense, whatever, you do better trying to figure it out
Oh really?

In November 2005, Johnson was arrested at the Excalibur nightclub in Chicago's Cook County for possession of a handgun in his sport utility vehicle. Johnson pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor gun charge and was sentenced to 18 months probation and 40 hours of community service.[4] On February 12, 2006, Johnson, while still on probation, was charged with aggravated assault and resisting arrest after allegedly verbally threatening a police officer. Johnson was leaving Level Nightclub on Chicago's Rush Street when the police officer was ticketing a limousine driver whom Johnson had hired. As Johnson allegedly put up a struggle, he was maced and subdued with the help of other police officers. The charges were eventually dropped.[5]

On December 14, 2006, Lake County police officers searched Johnson's home in Gurnee, Illinois, and allegedly discovered that he possessed six firearms, including two assault rifles. Although Johnson was at football practice during the search, his bodyguard William Posey was arrested from his house for alleged possession of marijuana. Johnson was charged with violation to probation and possessing unlicensed weapons. Bears coach Lovie Smith deactivated Johnson for the following game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers based on this incident.[6]

On December 16, 2006, Johnson's best friend and bodyguard William Posey was killed in a shooting at Ice Bar in Chicago's River North neighborhood. Posey was shot after he was allegedly involved in a fight around midnight. Posey was rushed to Northwestern Memorial Hospital, where he was pronounced dead at 1:30am. Posey's assailant was not apprehended by the police.[7] On December 28, Chicago Police apprehended Michael Selvie, Posey's alleged assailant. Selvie, a "reputed gang member" has been implicated in over 30 other crimes. However, Selvie's defense attorney claims that Selvie does not posses a firearm or any gang affiliations. If found guilty, Selvie will face charges of first degree murder.[8]

On December 22, 2006, Cook County Circuit Judge John J. Moran, Jr. (Skokie courthouse, Second District, Cook County, Illinois) placed Johnson on home confinement, preventing him from driving by himself or leaving the state of Illinois.[9] On February 8, 2007, Johnson entered a guilty plea in Cook County's Courthouse in Skokie for violating his probation.[10] On March 15, 2007, Johnson was sentenced to a 120 days in prison (Cook County Jail) and fined $2,500 for violating his probation. [11] On February 17, 2007, Johnson's lawyer contested a Lake County Circuit Court to drop Johnson's unlicensed weapons charges. His attorney claimed that since Johnson is a resident of Arizona, he does not have to abide to gun registration laws of Illinois.[12] Johnson entered a plea of not guilty on 10 counts of possessing a weapon without the proper state-required ID. [13]

On December 30, 2006, Tank Johnson contacted Gurnee Police Department to file harassment charges. [14] This news story is at best a footnote in many articles but deserves much more recognition. The information in the references is actually there but hard to find. Local youths left a toilet seat with a harassing message on his doorstep. Local news said that "Police did not disclose what the message on the garbage can said" [15] However, other sources claim that "Nice Job Tank" was written on the seat. [16] In reality the words "GO TANK" was written lovingly with duct tape. This toilet seat was duct taped to a garbage can.

On April 30, Johnson pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor weapons charge as part of an arrangement with prosecutors that will keep him from serving additional jail time. He was sentenced to 45 days in jail, which will be served concurrently with a four-month sentence he's already serving in the Cook County Jail for violating his probation; to donate $2,500 to the Gurnee Police Department and $2,500 to the Gurnee Exchange Club's child abuse prevention program.
 

theogt

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burmafrd;1530899 said:
Tank got suspended a good number of games. No problem for me. You, OGT, are the one whining about inconsistancy. As far as I am concerned I see none. Just trying to explain why Tank got 8 games for being convicted. I think it was his contrition that made the difference- VS Pacman and Henrys defiance.
Tank's transgressions were worse than Pacman's. He got less time. I think he should have got more. You want to go light on him. I'm just wondering why. Apparently you think he should get away with a light punishment because he's "sorry" he was such a bad guy.

Bob Sacamano;1530902 said:
then I don't know what it is theo, care to enlighten me?

I still won't care
If I knew I wouldn't be crowing about it.
 

Bob Sacamano

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theogt;1530903 said:
If I knew I wouldn't be crowing about it.

who says you have to crow about it? who's crowing about anything? if my reasoning on why Tank got less games makes no sense, do better, that's all I ask, formulate your own hypothesis and let's hear it
 

5Stars

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theogt;1530741 said:
Because there's utility in knowing what punishment will follow from your actions. Knowing the possible consequences of your own behavior is fundamental to an organized, functioning society.

If you want to override consistency, then you should have a valid justification. Your justification appears to be deterrence. But you can have deterrence with consistent punishment. With that in mind, how does deterrence justify inconsistency in a way that isn't maintained through consistency? Or do you have another justification for inconsistency?


You know, theogt...I would really like to see you make some kind of matrix, some kind of chart, some kind of "consistant" guideline...something, that will show just EXACTELY what punishment should be handed down for all the MANY, MANY, VARIOUS crimes or misdeeds that a player could get into!

If you and others have such a problem with the way this behavior is being handled, propose a solution?

What about rape? How much time?

What about DUI?

What about wife beating?

What about breaking into a girls house and taking a dump in her laundry basket?

What about pulling a gun but not shooting it?

What about pulling a gun and then shooting it?

What about stealing an ATV?

What about shoplifting?

What about being involved in a gang fight?

What about inciting a riot?

What about being a peeping tom?

What about car thieft?

Don't forget about exposing yourself to someone, that too!

What about...there are literally thousands of way that a player can get in trouble. Your telling us that there should be some "consistancy" in how punishment is handled. Now, lets leave all the above, and all the other thousands of ways that a player can get in trouble away from the "courts". OK? That is an entirely different subject...if a player is arrested or convicted, that is a different matter in itself and is more clear. However, bad behavior is a different matter!

Can you suggest just how a matrix, chart, flip of the coin, roll of the dice, whatever...can be constructed so that ALL THE THOUSANDS OF WAYS a player can cause trouble and harm the reputation of the NFL can be devised? And the matrix better be "consistant"...meaning if a player does multiple misdeeds compared to a player that had done the same misdeed ONE time.

I'll be waiting...!

;)

P.S. Don't leave any bad behavior out, be "consistant"!
 
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