F.O. has failed this offseason

[Haimerej]

And my point is that even if the bar was really low last year, it didn't get raised all that much this year to make me think they now have a viable pass rush from the edge.

So you acknowledge it was raised, however insignificant. That was the point I made.

My goal wasn't to just be better on paper than last year's debacle. I was hoping the goal was actually be much better to the point they might actually be ranked in say the Top 12 of pass rush teams.

So on one hand, you're saying they look better on paper but on the other you're saying they don't look good enough... even though it's all on paper at this time.

I'm comfortable saying there is more talent to work with than in the previous year. Again- 4 of 6 day one guys at the position last year weren't even pedestrian- they were non-existent.

PS - yes, it's quite a stretch to suggest that Mayowa would match Hardy's production from last year. Let's note that some of the analysts, like Sturm, pointed out the effect Hardy had when not even getting sacks. It's been said that Hardy commanding double teams helped Lawrence out a lot. I don't think any team is fearful of Benson Mayowa like they were concerned with Hardy.

Sure, Hardy had an effect that helped others. But this year you should see the interior linemen having an effect that we haven't seen, too. If they can generate pressure up the middle the QB won't be stepping up in the pocket to avoid the edge rush. That's been an issue for years. Maybe if they pressure the front of the pocket last year Hardy becomes more productive.

But all that aside -

It's too early to know for sure, either way. I believe there has been talent added. The DE group may be a wash, maybe be a downgrade, we'll have to wait and see. They'll have to be extremely bad to lower last year's production. Mayowa hasn't had many opportunities, but imo, he doesn't have to be great to improve this team.

 

[Sydla]

1) It's possible 5 of 6 day one guys might be useless too. Tapper isn't even playing, Mayowa doesn't have a track record of even mediocre play, Irving might be a better 3 Tech than a DE, Russell is just a JAG, Gregory could be a colossal bust.

2) The "better on paper" comment was just throwing you a bone. Because in reality, even if they are better on paper, it appears they are still a long way from being a competent group of DEs that can put consistent pressure on opposing QBs. You weren't just saying the bar was raised slightly, your whole innuendo is that they've improved the DE situation more than just a small amount.

3) Hardy was, at worst, our 2nd most productive DE. Mayowa has to be better than just "OK" to improve the team.

IMO, you have a very pie in the sky attitude to the DEs. It's a mediocre bunch and likely the Achilles heel of this team. And what makes it more galling is that Stephen Jones made improving the pass rush one of their top priorities and yet come the start of camp, their solution to one of their biggest needs was taking a DE in the 4th round of the draft, adding a guy off our practice squad and signing a FA who wasn't wanted by Seattle and then Oakland.

 

[Haimerej]

1) It's possible 5 of 6 day one guys might be useless too. Tapper isn't even playing, Mayowa doesn't have a track record of even mediocre play, Irving might be a better 3 Tech than a DE, Russell is just a JAG, Gregory could be a colossal bust.

Players generally improve from year 1 to year 2, do they not?

2) The "better on paper" comment was just throwing you a bone. Because in reality, even if they are better on paper, it appears they are still a long way from being a competent group of DEs that can put consistent pressure on opposing QBs. You weren't just saying the bar was raised slightly, your whole innuendo is that they've improved the DE situation more than just a small amount.

I said the defensive line as a group was upgraded. You singled out DE's and I indulged you for the sake of argument. I've made no assertion that the group has improved, "more than just a small amount." You're putting words in my mouth.

3) Hardy was, at worst, our 2nd most productive DE. Mayowa has to be better than just "OK" to improve the team.

Hardy's production was simply, "OK," last year. Mayowa doesn't have much to do to improve on that.

IMO, you have a very pie in the sky attitude to the DEs. It's a mediocre bunch and likely the Achilles heel of this team.

I'm more concerned with the LB corps.

And what makes it more galling is that Stephen Jones made improving the pass rush one of their top priorities and yet come the start of camp, their solution to one of their biggest needs was taking a DE in the 4th round of the draft, adding a guy off our practice squad and signing a FA who wasn't wanted by Seattle and then Oakland.

There is more to the pass rush than the DE position. The DT has been the weak spot for years and they addressed that position with significant upgrades.

 

[big dog cowboy]

I'm more concerned with the LB corps.

We play nickle and dime packages so much I'm less concerned than most with this group.

 

[Haimerej]

We play nickle and dime packages so much I'm less concerned than most with this group.

I don't know... I haven't watched the last game very closely but heard Durant didn't play well. Hitchens isn't good in coverage so hopefully what I heard was wrong or Durant just needed to work out some kinks.

 

[Sydla]

Some players get better from Year 1 to Year 2. And some don't. And Gregory, who would have the most potential, will be out 10 games most likely so he's likely a lost cause this year anyway.

Hardy had 6 sacks and commanded double teams most of last year. Mayowa has 2.0 sacks TOTAL in three seasons in the NFL. So yeah, the jump for Mayowa to be as productive as Hardy was in 2015 is a pretty significant leap for the guy.

There is more to a pass rush than just defensive ends. But you still need quality DEs to generate a significant, consistent pass rush. So no, I don't think if you have good DTs you can get by with a patchwork group of DEs, like we have.

 

[Haimerej]

Some players get better from Year 1 to Year 2. And some don't. And Gregory, who would have the most potential, will be out 10 games most likely so he's likely a lost cause this year anyway.

Gregory did nothing last year, so at worst it's a wash. Russell did nothing last year and looks better this year. I call that an upgrade.

Hardy had 6 sacks and commanded double teams most of last year. Mayowa has 2.0 sacks TOTAL in three seasons in the NFL. So yeah, the jump for Mayowa to be as productive as Hardy was in 2015 is a pretty significant leap for the guy.

No more significant than the production Marinelli got out of Selvie or Mincey.

There is more to a pass rush than just defensive ends. But you still need quality DEs to generate a significant, consistent pass rush. So no, I don't think if you have good DTs you can get by with a patchwork group of DEs, like we have.

2014 was more of a patchwork at DE than this year.

You're trying to say that since they haven't added significant, proven talent, they haven't added anything. I disagree. You're moving the goal post from, "better than last year," to, "top 10 pass rush." If the pass rush is top 10 this year I'll eat my hat.

 

[Sydla]

You're trying to say that since they haven't added significant, proven talent, they haven't added anything. I disagree. You're moving the goal post from, "better than last year," to, "top 10 pass rush." If the pass rush is top 10 this year I'll eat my hat.

I am doing no such thing. I am saying for a position that the GM said they needed to upgrade, they went about it with a bunch of unknowns that could blow up in their face. You may try to convince yourself they are much better on paper, but in reality, they are likely still a low 30s type sack team, which is not good enough IMO.

 

[Haimerej]

I am doing no such thing.

You're doing exactly that. I said the defensive line was upgraded. You took issue with my assertion and proceeded to argue that it wasn't upgraded enough to your liking.

I am saying for a position that the GM said they needed to upgrade, they went about it with a bunch of unknowns that could blow up in their face. You may try to convince yourself they are much better on paper, but in reality, they are likely still a low 30s type sack team, which is not good enough IMO.

Who said, "much better?"

You're twisting what I've said in an effort to be, "right."

 

[Sydla]

So wait. You initially talked about upgrades at every positional group but LB but now are saying you didn't say "much better"? But isn't that the point........... they needed to get much better?

Let's make this simple. They improved at DT. Hayden was a slug and Thornton was a nice signing. They don't appear to have improved at DE, at least at this point. As much as you want to think Mayowa can match what Hardy did (6 sacks, command a lot of double teams), to expect a guy with 2 career sacks in 3 seasons to now start commanding double teams to take pressure off Lawrence seems like a real reach. So in terms of pass rush, they appear to be no better than the previous couple of defenses based on what we have seen, injuries, etc.

In the end, I think the front office screwed up the DE position and should have brought at least one seasoned vet in here............ Mario Williams, Robert Ayers, etc.

 

[YosemiteSam]

What did Football Outsiders fail on?

 

[Haimerej]

So wait. You initially talked about upgrades at every positional group but LB but now are saying you didn't say "much better"? But isn't that the point........... they needed to get much better?

There is a difference between better and much better. All I said was they upgraded.

Let's make this simple.

I thought it was.

They improved at DT. Hayden was a slug and Thornton was a nice signing.

We've established that from my first response to you.

They don't appear to have improved at DE, at least at this point. As much as you want to think Mayowa can match what Hardy did (6 sacks, command a lot of double teams), to expect a guy with 2 career sacks in 3 seasons to now start commanding double teams to take pressure off Lawrence seems like a real reach.

I think you're exaggerating Hardy's impact. Yes, he did get doubled but it wasn't as much as you're trying to make it seem. A healthy DT next to Lawrence will help him, too. He's also looking better by all accounts.

So in terms of pass rush, they appear to be no better than the previous couple of defenses based on what we have seen, injuries, etc.

You seem to completely discount the DT's role in the pass rush. The significant upgrade at that position will affect the overall pass rush. The defensive line is a single unit. DT's work with DE's on games/stunts, for example.

In the end, I think the front office screwed up the DE position and should have brought at least one seasoned vet in here............ Mario Williams, Robert Ayers, etc.

That's fine. Again-

I think your argument is they didn't upgrade enough. I think you're overestimating Hardy's impact. He produced about as well as Mincey in 2014. You're acting like he put up a Pro Bowl performance.

Speaking of Pro Bowlers- Mayowa has been stuck behind some. It's easy to diminish him based on his lack of opportunities. It's not unreasonable to think he's shown flashes of talent and Marinelli can get similar production he got from a Mincey, Selvie, or even Hardy.

 

[Sydla]

I don't discount the DTs in the pass rush department. But I think you overestimate the effect they will have given the DEs we will trot out there. This seems to be the battle cry from those who deep down know the DE spot looks shaky - the DTs will pick up the slack! I suspect our interior push will be better but we still will have issues on the edge. And FWIW, I liked the Thornton signing very much but he's not really a pass rushing DT. That's going to have to come from Crawford and McClain, who you hope both can stay healthy, and maybe Collins (or even Irving who might slide over to DT on some pass rush downs).

If Mayowa was as good as you think, I doubt the Raiders just let him walk simply because they have some other DEs. He would have, at the very least, been a nice, cheap backup for them. And to state that he can match what Hardy did last year short sells the job Hardy did and likely completely overrates how good Mayowa will be. He had 2 sacks in 3 years not because he was unfortunate to play behind other DEs, he had 2 sacks because he simply wasn't good enough to get on the field enough. Now maybe he really is that diamond in the rough. I hope he is, but to state that one thinks he can match Hardy is largely blind optimism as opposed to rational analysis at this point.

We just have two differing opinions on the DL. I think they could be pretty good against the run, especially with Thornton for Hayden. But I think there are too many questions and risks at this point to think they are any better at getting after the QB than previous teams. But let's hope you end up being the right one on this and not me.

 

[Haimerej]

Well, my point all along has been that they don't have to do much to improve on what has been. Hardy was pedestrian last year, plain and simple. It's not unreasonable to believe Mayowa can contribute at the level of Jeremy Mincey or George Selvie, which is what Hardy did.