Falcons add college-style option to running game

[Chocolate Lab]

I am past the Line of Scrimmage and out of the pocket. Unless I stop dead in my tracks and give up on the play, whether I have the ball or have pitched it outside to Warrick Dunn and he is now Newman's read and assignment, are you giving me a free ride on that play?

But there's not a pitch to Warrick Dunn. If the QB sees the DE out there and maybe a linebacker shaded out there, he gives to the running back and goes up between the tackles. If the end crashes inside and there's some open space out there, he sprints to the outside.

I'm not trying to argue that Vick can stand the hitting, because he's shown that he can't. But you know him, he's going to run out of the pocket anyway, so why not run a few plays like this that give him a little advantage of no running unless the defense shows an opening that way. It might be safer than him running down the middle of the field where a linebacker can blindside him.

But one thing to remember about this is that a lot of the play is designed not for Vick to run it outside, but for Dunn or whoever to have more room inside. Just the threat of Vick running outside keeps the DE and LB at home a step longer, and that one step can make a difference in popping one up the gut.

 

[TEK2000]

I recognize this and am not saying differently.

Here, let me say it this way. For a moment you are Roy Williams and I am Mike Vick. We run the option out to the right. To your left you have Terence Newman.

I am past the Line of Scrimmage and out of the pocket. Unless I stop dead in my tracks and give up on the play, whether I have the ball or have pitched it outside to Warrick Dunn and he is now Newman's read and assignment, are you giving me a free ride on that play?

Or if I continue running up the field towards you are you going to do your impersonation of the Sandman? If I have the ball and don't slide feet first before you can tough me. That's the key.

Now, I'll openly admit, I prefer the pocket passer, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with this. I'm talking about straight up send a message defense. Do you deliver the message that this play will cost you, or do you do nothing and let them continue to think it's a good idea?

That's all it boils down to for me. Vick is not 6'4" and 235 pounds. Putting him out there for a defender to get a free shot at is a recipe for Matt Schaub to be the Falcons QB in 2006.

With the style of option that's been described.. THERE IS NO PITCH. Its a handoff. Did you not see the Longhorns play last season? Now, I haven't seen Atlanta's 2 games this season so I may be wrong on what exactly they are running.. but, from what people are describing, its the Zone Read option and there is NO PITCH in that option.

The exact scenario you're describing could happen on any pass play where Vick takes off scrambling. It doesn't matter if he's dropped back passing, takes off scrambling (unprotected), or keeps it on the option, the defense will always be trying to destroy the QB.

Vick rushed 7 times against Carolina... which matches his average for last season's per game rushing attempts. So, at least for the Carolina game.. he didnt run the ball anymore than he did last season.
He had 14 rushes against Tampa Bay... but is that because they ran 14 option plays or just that he scrambled several times? I'm gonna watch the games and see myself.

 

[Hostile]

But there's not a pitch to Warrick Dunn. If the QB sees the DE out there and maybe a linebacker shaded out there, he gives to the running back and goes up between the tackles. If the end crashes inside and there's some open space out there, he sprints to the outside.

I'm not trying to argue that Vick can stand the hitting, because he's shown that he can't. But you know him, he's going to run out of the pocket anyway, so why not run a few plays like this that give him a little advantage of no running unless the defense shows an opening that way. It might be safer than him running down the middle of the field where a linebacker can blindside him.

But one thing to remember about this is that a lot of the play is designed not for Vick to run it outside, but for Dunn or whoever to have more room inside. Just the threat of Vick running outside keeps the DE and LB at home a step longer, and that one step can make a difference in popping one up the gut.

I agree, that's the goal of the Option and he (Vick) can flat out run. I've never denied that.

I'm saying it's a bad idea because of the hitting. No other reason. At the college level a QB can take that kind of hitting. I don't believe he can at the NFL level. It's a bad trade.

I'm no fan of the option and I think there's a very real reason why NFL teams avoid it like the plague, but every now and then someone comes along thinking that it works in college so if you add the talent level of the Pros to the mix it will be even more lethal. I just think if it was that effective I'd have seen more of it at the NFL level for the last 36 years I've been watching football. But hey, that's me. I go by what I observe and I think the reason it won't be effective is exactly what I've already stated.

 

[chicago JK]

But there's not a pitch to Warrick Dunn. If the QB sees the DE out there and maybe a linebacker shaded out there, he gives to the running back and goes up between the tackles. If the end crashes inside and there's some open space out there, he sprints to the outside.

I'm not trying to argue that Vick can stand the hitting, because he's shown that he can't. But you know him, he's going to run out of the pocket anyway, so why not run a few plays like this that give him a little advantage of no running unless the defense shows an opening that way. It might be safer than him running down the middle of the field where a linebacker can blindside him.

But one thing to remember about this is that a lot of the play is designed not for Vick to run it outside, but for Dunn or whoever to have more room inside. Just the threat of Vick running outside keeps the DE and LB at home a step longer, and that one step can make a difference in popping one up the gut.

Yep, and how they have been running the ball....they are doing something right. For instance, when we play Atlanta, do you think Ware will need to think twice before crashing down the line of scrimmage to get to Dunn? If he does that is one less player the offensive line has to account for. If Ware does crash down the line he takes him out of the play if Vick keeps the ball.

 

[Hostile]

Doesn't seem like that's been the case so far, not that I've watched a Falcons game this year.

When it works over a 16 game schedule I'll say I spoke out of turn without any idea what I was talking about. 2 games isn't evidence of much. I give them credit for beating the Panthers, but without Steve Smith that team has no heart.

 

[Hostile]

With the style of option that's been described.. THERE IS NO PITCH. Its a handoff. Did you not see the Longhorns play last season? Now, I haven't seen Atlanta's 2 games this season so I may be wrong on what exactly they are running.. but, from what people are describing, its the Zone Read option and there is NO PITCH in that option.

The exact scenario you're describing could happen on any pass play where Vick takes off scrambling. It doesn't matter if he's dropped back passing, takes off scrambling (unprotected), or keeps it on the option, the defense will always be trying to destroy the QB.

Vick rushed 7 times against Carolina... which matches his average for last season's per game rushing attempts. So, at least for the Carolina game.. he didnt run the ball anymore than he did last season.
He had 14 rushes against Tampa Bay... but is that because they ran 14 option plays or just that he scrambled several times? I'm gonna watch the games and see myself.

Yes, I watched the Horns last season and for 36 years. I'm not a casual football fan.

Whether it's a pitch or a straight hand off or a keep it is still a QB out of the pocket running down the field where it is legal to hit him.

There is a huge difference in a QB running in the Option and a QB scrambling, the main one is that the Option is designed to draw the defenders to you while you have the ball so that you can hand or pitch it to someone else. A scramble is not meant to do that at all.

They are hardly analogous.

 

[Hostile]

Yep, and how they have been running the ball....they are doing something right. For instance, when we play Atlanta, do you think Ware will need to think twice before crashing down the line of scrimmage to get to Dunn? If he does that is one less player the offensive line has to account for. If Ware does crash down the line he takes him out of the play if Vick keeps the ball.

Ware's assignment will be Vick and someone outside of him would have the assignment of the other player. The Option works because players do forget their assignments. if they don't it stalls and then the pass offense in an Option usually is completely ineffective.

Are you willing to gamble on teams having players who forget their assignments for all 16 games?

I'm not.

 

[chicago JK]

Ware's assignment will be Vick and someone outside of him would have the assignment of the other player. The Option works because players do forget their assignments. if they don't it stalls and then the pass offense in an Option usually is completely ineffective.

Are you willing to gamble on teams having players who forget their assignments for all 16 games?

I'm not.

The play I have seen the Falcons using is most time Vick hands the ball off to Dunn in the shotgun (who has averaged over five yards a carry so far). The lineman are all blocking like it is a run for Dunn. This twist just gives Vick the option to keep the ball and get 10-15 yards a few times a game. I think it is a good idea and think this whole back and forth is much ado about nothing.

If this just gives Vick the option to get outside once a game while they can still run effectively between the tackles then this gives the defense a lot to worry about.

 

[Hostile]

The play I have seen the Falcons using is most time Vick hands the ball off to Dunn in the shotgun (who has averaged over five yards a carry so far). The lineman are all blocking like it is a run for Dunn. This twist just gives Vick the option to keep the ball and get 10-15 yards a few times a game. I think it is a good idea and think this whole back and forth is much ado about nothing.

If this just gives Vick the option to get outside once a game while they can still run effectively between the tackles then this gives the defense a lot to worry about.

I'll agree to disagree, but have to wonder if it's that useless a topic, why get involved at all?

 

[TEK2000]

Yes, I watched the Horns last season and for 36 years. I'm not a casual football fan.

Whether it's a pitch or a straight hand off or a keep it is still a QB out of the pocket running down the field where it is legal to hit him.

There is a huge difference in a QB running in the Option and a QB scrambling, the main one is that the Option is designed to draw the defenders to you while you have the ball so that you can hand or pitch it to someone else. A scramble is not meant to do that at all.

They are hardly analogous.

That was an honest question about watching the Longhorns.. no sarcasm intended.. sorry if it came across wrong. I didn't know if you were a Longhorn fan or not.

I disagree. In the Zone Read option the QB is not trying to draw the defense to him like you'd want in the veer or straight line option where the QB has a pitch man following. The Zone Read is basically designed for an Athletic RB and an Athletic QB. The QB decides whether to handoff or keep based on the actions of the DE and then, basically, tries to beat the defense with athleticism (with help from blockers obviously). That's why it was so successful for Texas because of Vince' athletic ability but also the ability of the running backs they had.

The idea for the veer style option is to draw the defender, like you mentioned, and then pitch to the pitch man... you're hoping the defense will play undisciplined and miss their assignments.

You're right on the fact that, if they ran it routinely and it was their base offense, it would be BAD for the NFL... but I think if they run it only 5 times a game or so, that it could be quite effective with Vick and Dunn.

 

[TEK2000]

Ware's assignment will be Vick and someone outside of him would have the assignment of the other player. The Option works because players do forget their assignments. if they don't it stalls and then the pass offense in an Option usually is completely ineffective.

Are you willing to gamble on teams having players who forget their assignments for all 16 games?

I'm not.

But the Falcons are running an NFL offense with an Option that they bring out only a few times a game. Its not like they are running and Option offense that they'll be depending upon on each play.

If the Option doesn't work.. they simply stop running it... they don't have to completely redo their offense.

 

[Clove]

Yeah, I can see Ware licking his chops waiting for Vick to come around the corner, he or RW will make it lights out.

 

[baj1dallas]

When it works over a 16 game schedule I'll say I spoke out of turn without any idea what I was talking about. 2 games isn't evidence of much. I give them credit for beating the Panthers, but without Steve Smith that team has no heart.

So what's your criteria for "working" going to be?

 

[Hostile]

That was an honest question about watching the Longhorns.. no sarcasm intended.. sorry if it came across wrong. I didn't know if you were a Longhorn fan or not.

I disagree. In the Zone Read option the QB is not trying to draw the defense to him like you'd want in the veer or straight line option where the QB has a pitch man following. The Zone Read is basically designed for an Athletic RB and an Athletic QB. The QB decides whether to handoff or keep based on the actions of the DE and then, basically, tries to beat the defense with athleticism (with help from blockers obviously). That's why it was so successful for Texas because of Vince' athletic ability but also the ability of the running backs they had.

The idea for the veer style option is to draw the defender, like you mentioned, and then pitch to the pitch man... you're hoping the defense will play undisciplined and miss their assignments.

You're right on the fact that, if they ran it routinely and it was their base offense, it would be BAD for the NFL... but I think if they run it only 5 times a game or so, that it could be quite effective with Vick and Dunn.

I'm not a Longhorn fan, I'm a college football fan. As such I try and watch the best games. It's hard not to include the Horns there in recent years. On top of this I am a draft junkie so I watch as much as I can.

All it takes is one big hit to make it ineffective. I just think it's a recipe for disaster at this level of play. If it was that useful more teams would use it. Atlanta is trying something. Kudos to them. I say it won't work long run and will push them backwards. If I'm wrong I'll eat my words.

 

[Hostile]

So what's your criteria for "working" going to be?

More than 2 games. I'll be shocked if they are still using it by mid season.

 

[jay cee]

Consider this as well, if Vick pitches the ball and does anything after the pitch other than to stop dead in his tracks he can be hit. In the pocket once he does not have the ball unless it is picked off, no one can touch him.

I simply don't think it is an inteligent risk.

Hos, as far as I can determine, that is not the play that the Falcons are running.

 

[Hostile]

Hos, as far as I can determine, that is not the play that the Falcons are running.

I don't know why people think I don't know this or that it matters. I read the article that introduces the topic. It's based on the WVU version. I got it. Honest. I still think it's going to have a short life in the NFL for them or anyone else.

If it was that revolutionary it would have more than one team trying it in the last 45 years.

 

[peplaw06]

Hos, how long before you can get rid of the Avatar??

 

[jay cee]

I don't know why people think I don't know this or that it matters. I read the article that introduces the topic. It's based on the WVU version. I got it. Honest. I still think it's going to have a short life in the NFL for them or anyone else.

If it was that revolutionary it would have more than one team trying it in the last 45 years.

Maybe it was because you kept talking about when the QB pitches and stuff.

 

[Hostile]

Hos, how long before you can get rid of the Avatar??

35 hours, 17 minutes.