Football Outsiders NFL Tier List. Dak B+, mostly positive responses

[Aerolithe_Lion]

All those teams you mentioned did more then just bring in the QB. Especially Tampa.

So you think a better QB beats SF? You mean like Rogers? SF beat Rogers in GB the very next week last year.

Moral of the story is that it can usually take both. But without the team, you are toast. We have the QB, need the team. Then there is the coaching argument. Need the coaching as well.

Who did Tampa bring in In 2020 that was more than Brady and Gronk? A backup OT? It was almost exactly the same team as in 2019. They signed a backup Tackle, a scouting team WR, and Lesean McCoy to not play any meaningful minutes. That was it. Their FA “haul” was a ton of guys re-signing from 2019. So no, not “especially TB.”

GB and Dallas are not the same team. Putting Rodgers on Dallas is not the same as Rodgers on GB, you’re now debunking your own earlier argument. And yes, Dak is a fringe top 10 QB, so it’d take a guy higher on the list to qualify for my statement. A guy like Rodgers, or Stafford, or Herbert.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Who did Tampa bring in In 2020 that was more than Brady and Gronk? A backup OT?

Off the top of my head........Fournette, Antonio Brown, Ndomukong Suh, Justin Pierre Paul, Joe Haeg, Gronk, Brady.

 

[starfan1]

Who did Tampa bring in In 2020 that was more than Brady and Gronk? A backup OT? It was almost exactly the same team as in 2019. They signed a backup Tackle, a scouting team WR, and Lesean McCoy to not play any meaningful minutes. That was it. Their FA “haul” was a ton of guys re-signing from 2019. So no, not “especially TB.”

GB and Dallas are not the same team. Putting Rodgers on Dallas is not the same as Rodgers on GB, you’re now debunking your own earlier argument. And yes, Dak is a fringe top 10 QB, so it’d take a guy higher on the list to qualify for my statement. A guy like Rodgers, or Stafford, or Herbert.

so would alot of us are they available? be thankful you could have chad Hutchinson

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Off the top of my head........Fournette, Antonio Brown, Ndomukong Suh, Justin Pierre Paul, Joe Haeg, Gronk, Brady.

How is Gronk and Brady more than Gronk and Brady?

Pierre Paul and Suh were already Bucs, they just re-signed them. Might have wanted to double check that. Did forget about Brown; so that’s 3 major guys. Tom Brady and 2 receivers to satiate Tom Brady.

Joe Haeg played 127 out a possible 1024 offensive snaps. Are you arguing he has any impact on them going from 7-9 to SB champions? I’m definitely open to hearing your point there.

 

[CowboyFrog]

Yes, the reason as in the difference between the two teams. LAR with similar talent but no Stafford the previous year had no real shot at a SB. He was the reason for the elevation of their success.

Thats a false statement as the Rams were in the SB with a lesser team and that same QB you swapped couple years ago. That was not the same rams team either as they added more than just stafford. Again I agree Stafford is better but he is not "The reason" they won he is one of the reasons.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

so would alot of us are they available? be thankful you could have chad Hutchinson

That’s the argument he’s refuting, somehow improving the QB position doesn’t improve the SB odds

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Thats a false statement as the Rams were in the SB with a lesser team and that same QB you swapped couple years ago. That was not the same rams team either as they added more than just stafford. Again I agree Stafford is better but he is not "The reason" they won he is one of the reasons.

They were there years ago, but they weren’t specifically a lesser team outside the QB position.

They didn’t have Jalen Ramsay but they did have Marcus Peters and Aqib Talib. They didn’t have half a season of Von Miller but they did have Ndamukong Suh, a pro bowl season out of Corey Littleton, Dante Fowler, Michael Brockers, and Lamarcus Joyner. no Odell but they had Robert Woods and Brandin Cooks. No Akers but a strong pro bowl season out of Todd Gurley. I would be happy arguing the non-QB players on 2018 were superior to 2021.

It’s not an ideal comparison, but I was more referring to what they were 2 years later in 2020 when they went 10-6 and got clobbered by the Packers in the playoffs. They had some other additions, but Stafford was the major one that transformed their fortune

 

[starfan1]

That’s the argument he’s refuting, somehow improving the QB position doesn’t improve the SB odds

Its really the same pointless argument weve had here for a number of years dating back to previous QB and there are alot of unknowns with those scenarios. hes right its more than the QB position that wrong here. youre right in Patrick mahomes,Brady or herbert could improve odds of winning SB.

Its also true that it hasnt been the QB position as the reason for our faiilures in 14,16,18 or 21. heres another thing lets say you had one of the 4 favorites everyone likes to throw out and put them in this organization under this pathetic owner and some of the coaching Romo and dak has had. They arent the same QB they are now.

we havent had a good enough TEAM to win and it may very werll be that way again this year

 

[starfan1]

They were there years ago, but they weren’t specifically a lesser team outside the QB position.

They didn’t have Jalen Ramsay but they did have Marcus Peters and Aqib Talib. They didn’t have half a season of Von Miller but they did have Ndamukong Suh, a pro bowl season out of Corey Littleton, Dante Fowler, Michael Brockers, and Lamarcus Joyner. no Odell but they had Robert Woods and Brandin Cooks. No Akers but a strong pro bowl season out of Todd Gurley. I would be happy arguing the non-QB players on 2018 were superior to 2021.

It’s not an ideal comparison, but I was more referring to what they were 2 years later in 2020 when they went 10-6 and got clobbered by the Packers in the playoffs. They had some other additions, but Stafford was the major one that transformed their fortune

Id argue a healthy Cooper Kupp may have been the bigger addition but stafford is no slouch

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Its really the same pointless argument weve had here for a number of years dating back to previous QB and there are alot of unknowns with those scenarios. hes right its more than the QB position that wrong here. youre right in Patrick mahomes,Brady or herbert could improve odds of winning SB.

Its also true that it hasnt been the QB position as the reason for our faiilures in 14,16,18 or 21. heres another thing lets say you had one of the 4 favorites everyone likes to throw out and put them in this organization under this pathetic owner and some of the coaching Romo and dak has had. They arent the same QB they are now.

we havent had a good enough TEAM to win and it may very werll be that way again this year

It’s a complicated argument, because you can say the QB position isn’t the problem, but conversely 2014 you lost by inches; 2016 again a very close game; 2018 again a close loss. 2021 couldn’t have been closer.

On the one hand, It’s fair to say the QB did enough to not lose the game, but that doesn’t mean he was doing enough to win it. A change in that position may be the hardest to accomplish, but it’s also the clearest way to improve your odds. It would be very difficult to present this answer to a team who’s QB is third best or fifth best or whatnot, but a fringe top 10 QB? It shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Id argue a healthy Cooper Kupp may have been the bigger addition but stafford is no slouch

Yeah that’s a big one, though he did play 15 and 16 games the two previous years with far worse statistical outputs. I would counter that while he took a leap in 2021, it may not be such a big coincidence that the two biggest receiving seasons ever were from Matt Stafford

 

[starfan1]

It’s a complicated argument, because you can say the QB position isn’t the problem, but conversely 2014 you lost by inches; 2016 again a very close game; 2018 again a close loss. 2021 couldn’t have been closer.

On the one hand, It’s fair to say the QB did enough to not lose the game, but that doesn’t mean he was doing enough to win it. A change in that position may be the hardest to accomplish, but it’s also the clearest way to improve your odds. It would be very difficult to present this answer to a team who’s QB is third best or fifth best or whatnot, but a fringe top 10 QB? It shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.

with the exception of 21 majority of the issues were on defense. QB did enough to win. Now last year Ill put a chunk of the blame on dak as he was bad.even though whenever he did make a play one of the 13 penalties took it away.

 

[starfan1]

Yeah that’s a big one, though he did play 15 and 16 games the two previous years with far worse statistical outputs. I would counter that while he took a leap in 2021, it may not be such a big coincidence that the two biggest receiving seasons ever were from Matt Stafford

ya if your arguing stafford being better than Goff you had me at hello.That said as other have said i just think all the thimngs had come together just right. Goff got them to the SB they have had a solid team for awhile.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

ya if your arguing stafford being better than Goff you had me at hello.That said as other have said i just think all the thimngs had come together just right. Goff got them to the SB they have had a solid team for awhile.

But then you could also make a case that 2018 Goff was a bit better than 2020 (or more aptly 2021) Goff by a good margin. Now whether that’s Goff playing for a contract or better coaching or having Gurley, there was definitely a stagnancy at some point.

 

[starfan1]

But then you could also make a case that 2018 Goff was a bit better than 2020 (or more aptly 2021) Goff by a good margin. Now whether that’s Goff playing for a contract or better coaching or having Gurley, there was definitely a stagnancy at some point.

Ya i was so pissed when he ran for that first down on us. He ran into the GOAT in the playoffs and that normally dont end well for the opposing QB.

 

[CowboyFrog]

They were there years ago, but they weren’t specifically a lesser team outside the QB position.

They didn’t have Jalen Ramsay but they did have Marcus Peters and Aqib Talib. They didn’t have half a season of Von Miller but they did have Ndamukong Suh, a pro bowl season out of Corey Littleton, Dante Fowler, Michael Brockers, and Lamarcus Joyner. no Odell but they had Robert Woods and Brandin Cooks. No Akers but a strong pro bowl season out of Todd Gurley. I would be happy arguing the non-QB players on 2018 were superior to 2021.

It’s not an ideal comparison, but I was more referring to what they were 2 years later in 2020 when they went 10-6 and got clobbered by the Packers in the playoffs. They had some other additions, but Stafford was the major one that transformed their fortune

Robert woods- Brandon cooks.................OBJ-2021 Kupp. come on now. Again Stafford was an upgrade but he is far from the only upgrade they had made and to argue that is ridiculous.

As for Stafford being the QB when Kupp had a great season and that no name guy Calvin something having one...are we just going to act like those WR had nothing to do with it?

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Robert woods- Brandon cooks.................OBJ-2021 Kupp. come on now. Again Stafford was an upgrade but he is far from the only upgrade they had made and to argue that is ridiculous. And the 2 best rfecieving seasons .

As for Stafford being the QB when Kupp had a great season and that no name guy Calvin something having one...are we just going to act like those WR had nothing to do with it?

We’re not acting like those guys didn’t have anything to do with it, but the telling stat is no one else ever did it. They are not the two greatest receivers ever, it’s a product of the offenses and the tendencies of the QB.

Woods and Cook were both 1200+ yard receivers in a 16 game schedule with Jared Goff throwing them the ball, that’s pretty stout. I don’t mean they’re flat out better than Cupp, but it adds to the amalgamation of talent 2018 had

 

[J-man]

My top 15 list of QB's I'd want leading my team this season would go Rogers, Brady, Allen, Mahomes, Stafford, Wilson, Borrows, Dak, Herbert, Jackson, Carr, Murry, Wilson, Jimmy G and Cusins

 

[CowboyFrog]

We’re not acting like those guys didn’t have anything to do with it, but the telling stat is no one else ever did it. They are not the two greatest receivers ever, it’s a product of the offenses and the tendencies of the QB.

Woods and Cook were both 1200+ yard receivers in a 16 game schedule with Jared Goff throwing them the ball, that’s pretty stout. I don’t mean they’re flat out better than Cupp, but it adds to the amalgamation of talent 2018 had

Calvin is widley considered the most gifted WR ever...many experts would say he was because of his Hieght, speed, strength, great hands, again because he didnt have the best career because he played for the same Detroit team you give Stafford a pass for playing for....Replace Jerry Rice with Calvin on those 49 teams and what does that look like? Maybe not better but probably not worse...right?

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Calvin is widley considered the most gifted WR ever...many experts would say he was because of his Hieght, speed, strength, great hands, again because he didnt have the best career because he played for the same Detroit team you give Stafford a pass for playing for....Replace Jerry Rice with Calvin on those 49 teams and what does that look like? Maybe not better but probably not worse...right?

Well Idont think Calvin is getting close to 1900 yards, but yes I think they likely do do worse without Jerry. What made Rice as great as he was wasn’t physical talent. Calvin Was far more talented but not the receiver Rice was.