For OTAs, your favorite S is still starting

[Sydla]

You say he stinks, I say he's about average or below average, I just don't feel that the Cowboys would play him if he "stinks", they have had Showers for a couple of years and got Thompson last year, who has been in the league for 2 years before the Cowboys, and as you noted there were other safeties that signed with other teams for reasonable amounts, so surely the Cowboys would have put SOMEBODY in there instead in he "stinks".

We obviously both would like a better player in there, we just disagree as to where exactly he ranks, and that's fine, we each have our opinion...

The Cowboys played and started Nick Hayden for a few years and it was obvious he wasn't very good. He just was a favorite of Marinelli and the coaching staff. Fans constantly complained that he wasn't very good. Eventually the team realized what was painfully obvious and moved on from him. I think that could be repeating itself with Heath.

I think like with Hayden, they overvalue how good he really is.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

The Cowboys played and started Nick Hayden for a few years and it was obvious he wasn't very good.

100% agree, but as with Heath, "wasn't very good" isn't "terrible", that's all I'm saying, since apparently none of us are ex-NFL coaches or scouts (if any are then their opinion carries more weight), we're just giving our opinions....

 

[Hennessy_King]

Of all the dozens of safeties around the league, either playing, on the practice squad, or released by other teams in final cuts, there is NOT ONE SINGLE PLAYER that the Cowboys could get that's any better?

If they didn't get someone else, Heath must have a least some ability, "terrible" implies he has near zero, and if that's the case how did he get 85 tackles, 5 passes defensed and an interception?

Look he's not one of the top players on the defense, but even below average isn't "terrible", if he's "terrible" then Showers and Thompson must be absolutely worthless if the couldn't beat out a "terrible" safety....

What do you call ranked 81st out of 90? Is that terrible or below average?

 

[Sydla]

100% agree, but as with Heath, "wasn't very good" isn't "terrible", that's all I'm saying, since apparently none of us are ex-NFL coaches or scouts (if any are then their opinion carries more weight), we're just giving our opinions....

I mean while I never said he was "terrible" that's some real hair splitting between "terrible" and "wasn't very good". Both are subpar descriptions of a player.

He's a backup S/special teams player. I have no problem with him being on our roster. He shouldn't be a starting safety for this team and the team is making a mistake constantly trotting him out there as if he's a competent starting SS in this league. But I suspect, he fits in the same narrative as Hayden............ good teammate, hard worker, smart guy, coaching favorite............ those things tend to blind the front office and the coaching staff, specifically Marinelli.

 

[ondaedg]

Silly Cowboy fans - only DL matters for a good pass defense.

 

[OmerV]

I like to think of him as the new barry church or orlando scandrick. A jag that somehow can't be replaced. But will be jobless as soon as they leave.

neither have been jobless. Church has been a full time starter the last 2 years since leaving Dallas, and Scandrick logged considerable playing time and started a number of games last year.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

.. those things tend to blind the front office and the coaching staff, specifically Marinelli.

Ah yes, there's the rub, Showers of Thompson may be better but will never get the chance to start...

 

[LACowboysFan1]

What do you call ranked 81st out of 90? Is that terrible or below average?

I see that number thrown about a lot, please post the site that has that, I can't find it.

And as I've said before, even Marinelli wouldn't keep a guy that bad as his starter, are you saying the Cowboys can't find ANYBODY to replace him? Either on the Cowboys roster or in the "scrap pile"? Or is the coaching staff absolutely incompetent/blind/stupid?

 

[Sydla]

Ah yes, there's the rub, Showers of Thompson may be better but will never get the chance to start...

I don't think Showers or Thompson were all that good to begin with themselves. I mean Showers was a converted QB, he was always a long shot to make any impact.

It will be curious to see the kid they took later in the draft. I've seen some say he might be a sleeper, kind of like Woods. We can only hope.

 

[Sydla]

I see that number thrown about a lot, please post the site that has that, I can't find it.

And as I've said before, even Marinelli wouldn't keep a guy that bad as his starter, are you saying the Cowboys can't find ANYBODY to replace him? Either on the Cowboys roster or in the "scrap pile"? Or is the coaching staff absolutely incompetent/blind/stupid?

It was Pro Football Focus that ranked him that low. They had him 81st amongst all NFL safeties.

Football Outsiders doesn't rank players but they had an article that pretty much took Heath (and Awuzie for that matter) to task as being the clear weak links in this defense.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

I don't think Showers or Thompson were all that good to begin with themselves. I mean Showers was a converted QB, he was always a long shot to make any impact.

It will be curious to see the kid they took later in the draft. I've seen some say he might be a sleeper, kind of like Woods. We can only hope.

The draftee is a lock to start if Heath is as bad as you say

 

[Cowfan75]

Last season I thought there would be about as much chance of Heath starting this season as Kellen Moore being our next HC. Now both seem imminent.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

Football Outsiders doesn't rank players but they had an article that pretty much took Heath (and Awuzie for that matter) to task as being the clear weak links in this defense.

And I agree, but my original post that started all this was that EVEN IF Heath is a poor safety, it doesn't mean the defense can't be successful. It was not a defense or Heath or a discussion of how good a safety he is, only that all other teams have "weak links" but some are still successful, so I'm not losing any sleep over whether or not Heath is replaced...

 

[Sydla]

And I agree, but my original post that started all this was that EVEN IF Heath is a poor safety, it doesn't mean the defense can't be successful. It was not a defense or Heath or a discussion of how good a safety he is, only that all other teams have "weak links" but some are still successful, so I'm not losing any sleep over whether or not Heath is replaced...

Heath prevents this defense from being elite. He's a guy that can be isolated and picked on quite a bit.

 

[Stash]

Heath prevents this defense from being elite. He's a guy that can be isolated and picked on quite a bit.

Everyone outside the Cowboys organization knows he's a weak link. A target, to be tested and beaten. Someone that opponents scheme to take advantage of.

Another 'good, team guy', that this team continues to start for all the wrong reasons.

And there's no excuse not to make even the slightest effort to replace him. But hopefully, Iloka is given a true opportunity to do so in camp. But I don't have a lot of faith in him getting a fair shake given the Cowboys 'can't quit you' attitude when it comes to some of these guys.

 

[Sydla]

Everyone outside the Cowboys organization knows he's a weak link. A target, to be tested and beaten. Someone that opponents scheme to take advantage of.

Another 'good, team guy', that this team continues to start for all the wrong reasons.

And there's no excuse not to make even the slightest effort to replace him. But hopefully, Iloka is given a true opportunity to do so in camp. But I don't have a lot of faith in him getting a fair shake given the Cowboys 'can't quit you' attitude when it comes to some of these guys.

Teams will kill us with TEs again unless Iloka or the rookie somehow find magic. Heath is a big reason why we have been largely inept at defending TEs.

 

[Fletch]

According to some reports, Heath was the starting SS with Iloka backing him up.

Now it's OTAs, so it might only be a familiarity thing with Heath running with the 1s while Iloka and some of the young guys get up to speed.

But my god, if Jeff Heath is our opening day starting SS. These guys just can't "quit" mediocre players when they became coaches' pet cats.

Bill Bates and then some.

 

[Stash]

Teams will kill us with TEs again unless Iloka or the rookie somehow find magic. Heath is a big reason why we have been largely inept at defending TEs.

Don't forget about being at the top of his position in missed tackles. He's not good against the run either.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

Would seem hard to believe the coaches would keep Heath as a starting safety just because they like the guy, it's likely more complicated than that, it's salary cap, how he meshes with the other players, does his skills help the defense more than another safety in the particular scheme, etc.

To say he's in there because he's the coaches "pet cat" is unlikely, but since we're not on the coaching staff we don't know. We should see this year, with Iloka there, another year with Thompson, and a rookie safety, surely if Heath's that bad one of those guys will take his place. I'm all for upgrading where you can, as long as it's not a "well this other guy's maybe not any better, but let's stick him in there and see if it works" kind of thing...

 

[CowboyRoy]

Because since every team has at least one weak spot, but are still successful, if Heath is no great shakes as a safety, he won't be the reason the team can't be successful, and the coaches should be able to scheme around his weaknesses, LIKE OTHER TEAMS.

Did the Pats have great players at every spot? No, but they won the SB, didn't they? So if Heath is mediocre, the rest of the team can "cover up" his weaknesses, and put him where his talent can be used most efficiently, again as some other successful teams do.

As far as getting other safeties, they got Iloka and drafted a 6th rounder. And there may be other safeties released in pre-season, camps, etc. that the Cowboys can get later. If the Cowboys didn't sign a safety for Heath's position, then either they didn't think the others were an upgrade over Heath, or have budgeted the available cap money for other positions. Either way, if they viewed Heath as you do I think they would have replaced him with somebody, but they didn't.

You think Heath is a terrible safety, I get it. But even assuming that's true, as I said in my original post, with a great pass rush and good linebackers, safety isn't a CRUCIAL issue, the lack of a pass rush in the pass-happy NFL these days is a far more necessary part of your team, having the top notch safety would be great, but if you don't have one, no point in assuming the defense is going to be an issue...

So last year when Heath bit on the play fake and took a bad angle and couldn't catch Goff on the bootleg to pick up the first down to end our playoff hopes, was that an issue for you?

This notion that every team has a bad player starting is as mindless and low standard as it gets. Coordinators attack your weakest links.

And seeing as though our other safety has done little of note, its very very problematic that we have two guys that are average to below average.

We don't have Tom Brady at QB or Bellicheck as HC. Another bad example.

The job is to replace the chumps, not to make excuses for them to remain starting.

Other than one pro bowl season from Jones has anyone done anything in our secondary?

And then you gloss over the injury issue. What if a big gun like Lawrence goes down and our pass rush suffers?

Did you enjoy the 250 yards rushing by the Rams in the playoff loss? Where was our strong safety Heath while all that was going on?
Whiffing on tackles or tackling 7 yards down the field?

Low standard fans have never sat well.