For those who don't think Drew makes the HOF

[Doomsday101]

Somebody please help out a poor confused Cowboy fan here. Plunkett isn't in the hall. What relivance does he play here?

Because he has 2 rings, the debate seems to be how much weight does the ring have in getting a player to the Hall. I think it has some if you have put good numbers for a good portion of your career. In Plunketts case he never really had more than a couple of good years. In Bledsoe case I don't think he gets in today but I still think with his past numbers and what he may do in Dallas could get him to the HOF.

 

[jay cee]

Aikman actually had pretty solid years in 98 and 99 in Chan Gailey's dink and dunk system that clearly didnt play to Aikman's strengths...

in 98 he missed 5 1/2 games but still threw 12 tds and only 5 picks with a QB rating of 88.5...in 99 he missed 2 games but threw 17 tds and only 12 picks with a rating of 81.1...both yrs he completed just under 60% of his throws

his only bad yr was 2000, and injury/severe talent deficiencies and poor coaching brought him down more than anything else...the guy was an awesome player...alot of the dolts on here who bash him hardly saw him play, and if they did it was probably only his last yr in the league

David

Those were decent seasons, they were not great seasons. They were not not hall of fame seasons. They were not impact seasons. They were decent.

Bledsoe has had a lot of really decent seasons also. And some statistically great seasons. What he has not had was the championship seasons.

Why, because he never had the chance to play on a team that was capable of winning the championship. When he did, he got hurt, and the legend of Brady was born.

If Aikman can't be expected to win with no talent around him, how can you say, Bledsoe does not deserve to go to the HOF, because he could not win with little or no talent around him.

That's my point, only a dolt would take it as an attack on Aikman, and start calling people dolts for making that point.

And you still can't show me where the Cowboys had hall of fame caliber qb play from '97-2000. I wouldn't expect it with that talent poor team surrounding the qb.

They averaged barely over 1 td pass a game, and you can't say that was because they had a running back scoring 20 tds a year. Smith was no where near the dominant runner of the superbowl teams.

The Cowboys were terrible in the red zone during those years and according to most of you guys, that is the responsibility of the QB.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

they beat an 8-8 Rams team that backed into the playoffs, at home...

thats why they made the NFC Championship game

Vick had nothing to do with the Falcons being near the top of the league defensively in sacks and forced turnovers...THATS why the Falcons made the playoffs last yr and in 2002

David

Really?

Vick has improved his team every since he has started for the Falcons and has one of the highest winning percentage of any Quarterback in the league.

I dont know if there is a more valuable player in this league to his particular team then that guy. You take him away from Atlanta and I think they start sinking fast.

Who says you always have to do that same thing just because all the other guys did it a certain way before you?

The guy needs to work on his passing but he hasnt exactly had the best talent to work with at receiver and he can literally take over a game with one of his strengths, which is running.

Vick has just as much of a chance to get into the Hall of Fame as Manning in my opinion.

- Mike G.

 

[Nors]

sorry Nors, but Troy Aikman,Dan Marino, Steve Young and John Elway were all head and shoulders better than Bledsoe...I think you could argue about Warren Moon being better as well

David

Moon , Elway, Marino, Young came up a decade before Bledsoe.

Aikman only 5 years difference - I could see maybe including him in Bledsoe's era.

Since Bledsoe was drafted - name 5 better overall career QB'S? Can't do it

 

[joseephuss]

they beat an 8-8 Rams team that backed into the playoffs, at home...

thats why they made the NFC Championship game

Vick had nothing to do with the Falcons being near the top of the league defensively in sacks and forced turnovers...THATS why the Falcons made the playoffs last yr and in 2002

David

The defense also seems to play better when he is the QB. That is leadership. The guy is a team leader and that is part of being a good QB. I don't think the team will take the next step until he improves his passing. Will he? Doesn't look like it so far this season.

 

[Justis]

Really?

Vick has improved his team every since he has started for the Falcons and has one of the highest winning percentage of any Quarterback in the league.

I dont know if there is a more valuable player in this league to his particular team then that guy. You take him away from Atlanta and I think they start sinking fast.

Who says you always have to do that same thing just because all the other guys did it a certain way before you?

The guy needs to work on his passing but he hasnt exactly had the best talent to work with at receiver and he can literally take over a game with one of his strengths, which is running.

Vick has just as much of a chance to get into the Hall of Fame as Manning in my opinion.

- Mike G.

I'd say back when Atlanta was a one pony show that that is the case, and no mistaking Vick can do what very few QBs can. However I think that Vick may be a burdon on this franchise do to his style and his injury plagued career. Eventually the falcons are going to have to reach an injury settlement with him and kill their cap. Shame this guy is an outstanding athlete, but he's built like a WR, and those guys aren't designed to take this kind of physical abuse

 

[Doomsday101]

Really?

Vick has improved his team every since he has started for the Falcons and has one of the highest winning percentage of any Quarterback in the league.

I dont know if there is a more valuable player in this league to his particular team then that guy. You take him away from Atlanta and I think they start sinking fast.

Who says you always have to do that same thing just because all the other guys did it a certain way before you?

The guy needs to work on his passing but he hasnt exactly had the best talent to work with at receiver and he can literally take over a game with one of his strengths, which is running.

Vick has just as much of a chance to get into the Hall of Fame as Manning in my opinion.

- Mike G.

Vick is a great athlete not a great QB, his backup was able to throw for 3 TD something Vick has not done in his entire time at atl. Don't blame the WR of atlanta because their QB takes off at the drop of a hat. Quite frankly Atl could move Vick to another position and still get a lot of production out of him but as a QB sorry the guy lacks a hell of a lot

 

[alpha]

Good post, and I agree with much of this. I'm certainly not saying he's incapable. But he has not been spectacular as some have been. That is why I have been discussing impact.

I was the one who brought up his contemporaries. To compare them you went right ot stats. I'm simply not doing that. The QBs of his early years were legendary figures.

Marino
Elway
Young
Favre
Aikman
Kelly

To be in the top 5 of that era you'd have to tell me he is better than one of those guys. I don't see it.

Now in the latter part of his his career there is a new era of QB.

Manning
Brady
McNabb
Culpepper
Vick

Again, in comparison he's going to lag behind. That is no fault of his. He just happened to land in the NFL at a time when there are some QBs grabbing bigger headlines than he does.

Is it fair? I can't answer that. It's reality and it's about impact.

Can't make these comparisons in a vacuum. Again, it's all about context.

First, consider their relative supporting casts (Culpepper w/o Moss is a textbook example). The fact the Bills OL set a league record for sacks given up over the three year period Drew played in Buffalo is very relevent to this disussion, for example. (Now recall what Aikman had to work with, and I don't mean Emmitt/Michael/Jay/Moose/etc.)

Second, you're asking us to compare HOF QBs in their prime (Marino, Young, Favre, Elway, Aikman, Kelly) to a rookie who was thrown to the wolves in '93 on a 2-14 team (several years before Glenn/Martin joined him, I might add). Elway and Marino were 10 year vets Drew's rookie season. Kelly and Young were 8 year vets.

Still, in just his second year in the league ('94) - when all six of the QB's on your list were still playing - Bledsoe finished #1 in completions and yards and #4 in passing TDs (just two years removed from a 2-14 NE team, doing so without the help of Terry Glenn or Curtis Martin). And he did it again in '96 and '97 (#1/#2 completions, #3/#3 yards, #4/#3 TDs).

As for your second list of contemporary signal callers, I take Bledsoe over Vick and Culpepper right now, and to be fair, Drew never had a supporting cast as talented as McNabb and Brady are/have been playing with. All things considered, Drew stacks up reasonably well with some pretty heady company, IMHO.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

Vick is a great athlete not a great QB, his backup was able to throw for 3 TD something Vick has not done in his entire time at atl. Don't blame the WR of atlanta because their QB takes off at the drop of a hat. Quite frankly Atl could move Vick to another position and still get a lot of production out of him but as a QB sorry the guy lacks a hell of a lot

What is the litmus test for getting into the hall of fame as a Quarterback? Do you have to throw for a ton of yards, do you have win alot, do you have to be a very clutch player when it counts.

I think the guy is redefining the position and I think he will become an accomplished passer at some point, if he wants to, and I think he will have too as the older you get, the first thing to go is those legs.

 

[alpha]

Really?

Vick has improved his team every since he has started for the Falcons and has one of the highest winning percentage of any Quarterback in the league.

I dont know if there is a more valuable player in this league to his particular team then that guy. You take him away from Atlanta and I think they start sinking fast.

Who says you always have to do that same thing just because all the other guys did it a certain way before you?

The guy needs to work on his passing but he hasnt exactly had the best talent to work with at receiver and he can literally take over a game with one of his strengths, which is running.

Vick has just as much of a chance to get into the Hall of Fame as Manning in my opinion.

- Mike G.

There are quite a few knowledgeable observers who believe Vick's backup Matt Schaub (a third round pick two years ago) is already a better passer than Vick. Vick is an amazing talent and incredibly gifted athlete to be sure, but he's got a long way to go before he can be included among the elite to play the position, IMHO.

Check out this story about Vick (posted this morning, 8:30am Oct. 14, scroll down a little):
http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm

 

[Maikeru-sama]

I'd say back when Atlanta was a one pony show that that is the case, and no mistaking Vick can do what very few QBs can. However I think that Vick may be a burdon on this franchise do to his style and his injury plagued career. Eventually the falcons are going to have to reach an injury settlement with him and kill their cap. Shame this guy is an outstanding athlete, but he's built like a WR, and those guys aren't designed to take this kind of physical abuse

His playing style?

So Drew Bledsoe, Kerry Collins, Ben Roth, Donovan Mcnabb, Brett Favre, Trent Green and so many other pocket QBs have never been hurt before?

The point is, you can get hurt being a scrampler or a pocket passer.

I dont see how a guy of Vick's talent is a burden to his team. I have heard alot but that one is very new to me.

- Mike G.

 

[Doomsday101]

What is the litmus test for getting into the hall of fame as a Quarterback? Do you have to throw for a ton of yards, do you have win alot, do you have to be a very clutch player when it counts.

I think the guy is redefining the position and I think he will become an accomplished passer at some point, if he wants to, and I think he will have too as the older you get, the first thing to go is those legs.

I think things like yards,TD passes do play a big part in a QB getting into the HOF. As for Vick I respect his athletic ability but I just don't like his play at QB. His back up was able to put up over 300 yards passing and 3 TD, Vick does not do that and he is getting all the reps at practice. Schaub gets the leftovers and looks a lot sharper at the position. The ability to pass the ball yes it is critical at the QB position unless you run the option. I really don't know why Alt has a playbook when Vick constantly forces plays to break down as he free lances. Great Athlete? Best in the NFL in my opinion. Great QB no not at all.

 

[joseephuss]

What is the litmus test for getting into the hall of fame as a Quarterback? Do you have to throw for a ton of yards, do you have win alot, do you have to be a very clutch player when it counts.

I think the guy is redefining the position and I think he will become an accomplished passer at some point, if he wants to, and I think he will have too as the older you get, the first thing to go is those legs.

I don't think he is redefining the position. I doubt if there will be an influx of Vick clones because there really aren't any other QB like him. Sure there are gifted runners out there(Vince Young), but they don't run as fast as him and they don't have his arm strength. He is just a special athlete at the QB position. His younger brother isn't even as gifted an athlete.

He is not the best QB and he may never be that. There are a lot of pure pocket passers you could say the same thing about. That is because there are guys named Manning and Brady playing right now. But he has impacted the Atlanta Falcons. That can be seen. He is a young QB that still has to improve to get his team to the next level. Almost every young QB in the league has to do that.

 

[Doomsday101]

His playing style?

So Drew Bledsoe, Kerry Collins, Ben Roth, Donovan Mcnabb, Brett Favre, Trent Green and so many other pocket QBs have never been hurt before?

The point is, you can get hurt being a scrampler or a pocket passer.

I dont see how a guy of Vick's talent is a burden to his team. I have heard alot but that one is very new to me.

- Mike G.

They don't have to miss games because of a sprained ankle. Vick can't play if he can't run. As far as mobility I think it is a great asset to any QB but you must be able to work from a pocket to allow the WR to be able to run their routs.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

Right

Well it's 5 PM in Dallas, so it is quitting time and definately not worth fighting this battle as there are too many people that just cant stand Vick.

Only time will tell...

Peace out

- Mike G.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Bledsoes Era will be 1993-2007

I'll throw in

Favre
Manning
Brady (SB)

Bledsoe is in the mix to be in that next grouping - you could argue top 5 in this era.

I would think that Mark Brunell would get some consideration as well. In fact, I would probably throw in Trent Green and Possibly Randle Cunningham, as well.

Now, some might question Cunningham and based on statistics alone, I could understand why. However, Cunningham did change the game. Cunningham, in his prime, was a better QB then Vick IMO. He was the first of the Black Mobile QBs IMO. There was Moon but he was not the mobile QB in vogue today IMO. Rather, an extremely talented Passer who could move around.

Brunell because, while he doesn't have over powering yardage numbers, his TO ratio is really good. His QB ratio is there, his completion percentage is there. If he has a couple of good seasons, he will get consideration.

If Trent Green wins a championship, his odds increase a great deal, IMO. nobody talks about this guy but the numbers he is putting up are there. He's got 7 years in the league. If he plays another 5 years, He will have 40,000 yards. He is at 60% cmp now and getting better. His QB rating is 87.9 now. He averages out to 243 TDs against 150 INTs. These numbers, from a quality stand point, are going to compare very favorably with anybodies.

 

[Doomsday101]

Right

Well it's 5 PM in Dallas, so it is quitting time and definately not worth fighting this battle as there are too many people that just cant stand Vick.

Only time will tell...

Peace out

- Mike G.

Have a good weekend and Go Cowboys!!!!

 

[Hostile]

Vick? why the heck would you list him? are you wanting to run the option or the single wing?

the guy is a pathetic passer

Culpepper is an enigma...Kelly and Young I'd player over Bledsoe though

David

Because I was making a point about impact.

You think people won't remember Vick's running ability or the media craze about him?

 

[Hostile]

Moon , Elway, Marino, Young came up a decade before Bledsoe.

Aikman only 5 years difference - I could see maybe including him in Bledsoe's era.

Since Bledsoe was drafted - name 5 better overall career QB'S? Can't do it

Some of them who will likely be better are just getting started.

Peyton Manning has phenomenal stats but hasn't won a Super Bowl. I think most pundits would tell you he is a Hall of Famer?

Why? What's the difference between him and Bledsoe?

Impact on the game.

 

[Hostile]

Before I forget, my apologies to Charles. We've gone past 10 pages without mention of your hero. I know you like to think he's the only topic worthy of it, but it just ain't so.