Former players etc. opine on Norv

[DLCassidy]

I did not question your background. Its called anthropology and I know what the type of person displays the viewpoint you espouse.

So you know what type of person I am? What kind is that?

this becomes more apparent to me when people like Brad Johnsom go the extra mile after he not even on Norv's team anymore to beat the Commanders cause of how they treated Turner and Troy Aikman follows him into the hall of fame. That means the man has some strong leadership qualities as Aikman especially was not one prone to following anyone.

Being a leader doesn't mean popular and it doesn't mean likeable. Noone's debating people don't like Norv or that he doesn't have a good offensive mind. That doesn't mean he's a HC.

You can say hes got leadership qualities but hes not a leader or all 53 men have to go along with it but at that point its really just semantics.

Turner didnt lose in Washington because of his leadership skills. He lost because he missed horribly on Shuler and he doesnt know a thing about defense. Lombardi himself would have lost in Oakland leadership and all.

He lost the respect of his team and it showed by how they played for him. Penalty ridden. Sloppy. Undisciplined. That's it in a nut shell.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

Uh, I wouldn't call pornography hard to to define. Three words. Sex on camera.

But uh, yeah, good point.

He was qouting Justice Potter Stewart's famous opinion in Jacobellis v. Ohio.

 

[DLCassidy]

Umm. Barry Switzer won a Super Bowl.

As did Trent Dilfer. But talking about exceptions like they're the rule is useless. Generally speaking you need a very good coach and a very good QB to win. Norv ain't very good.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He was qouting Justice Potter Stewart's famous opinion in Jacobellis v. Ohio.

And truly one of the most ironic rulings of all time. He is essential saying that when i get an emotional response from seeing it then he knows its porn. Its a completely romantic notion form what is supposed to be an objective and unemotional institution.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So you know what type of person I am? What kind is that?



Being a leader doesn't mean popular and it doesn't mean likeable. Noone's debating people don't like Norv or that he doesn't have a good offensive mind. That doesn't mean he's a HC.



He lost the respect of his team and it showed by how they played for him. Penalty ridden. Sloppy. Undisciplined. That's it in a nut shell.

First of all your idea of 'leadership' is what the military has been pimping for the past century. After world war ii and before our debaucles in asia the miltiary and miltary thought was in high vogue in entertainment and corporate culture. It is no coiincidence that in the 50s when sports figures such as landry and lombardi emerged as great leaders in this time period.

lombardi was renowned for running boot camp style practices and masterful tactics. landrys quote about getting other people to do what they dont want to do for their own good is the military mindset in a nutshell.

That puts you at about a baby boomer and considering that most of this was within white culture of that time it also makes you white. I was really being nice by saying you were only 45 as that only puts your birthday in 1962 and by then viewpoints had changed to say the least.

this is not an indictment of your character by any means its just an observation. but tell me am i wrong?

furthermore what you call leadership i think of as coercion. like i said its different interpretations of the same word. to me if people wish to follow norvs lead then hes a leader not if he can make them do what they dont want to do.

also norvs teams sloppy play coincided with al davis and daniel snyder and i find it no small coicidence that thoes teams still retain those qualities. early in turners Commander career he was know for heath shuler and defensive collapses.

 

[Om]

Fuzzy,

You have a pretty high opinion of your own opinion, that much is clear. I can't quite tell how many of your board mates share that opinion though ... so I'm trying to get a better sense for myself.

Can I ask you a question?

In mapping out all the subtle why's, wherefore's and subtexts involved in Norv Turner's career in Washington as you've done, what percentage of his 40-odd minicamps, 7 training camps, several hundred practices, 28 preseason games, 109 regular season games and 2 playoff games--to say nothing of the myriad news articles and press conferences and interviews and just the daily "feel" one gets as a serious local fan of a team--would you say you watched/heard/read/assimilated over the seven years?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy,

You have a pretty high opinion of your own opinion, that much is clear. I can't quite tell how many of your board mates share that opinion though ... so I'm trying to get a better sense for myself.

Can I ask you a question?

In mapping out all the subtle why's, wherefore's and subtexts involved in Norv Turner's career in Washington as you've done, what percentage of his 40-odd minicamps, 7 training camps, several hundred practices, 28 preseason games, 109 regular season games and 2 playoff games--to say nothing of the myriad news articles and press conferences and interviews and just the daily "feel" one gets as a serious local fan of a team--would you say you watched/heard/read/assimilated over the seven years?

Heres a better idea. since you have this huge wealth of information then how about you give examplesof how my takes are wrong.

I back up what i say with facts and logic but at the same time you cant even do that with your 'wealth' of knowledge. I may seem very arrogant and condescending a fact that my girlfriend loves to point out when I go too far but when you prove me wrong im not afraid to admit it. BigD did that in this very thread.

I stand by my statement that you guys had a very good thing going with Turner in 1998-1999 and Snyder basically screwed it up. You like snyder apparently and dont see that and thats fine but it is a fact that Turner and Snyder clashed over George and that Snyder held him responsible for the kicking games.

Snyder had him fired in the middle of that season amidst a swirl of controversy and Norv had you guys cooking.

i provide links and a lot of these facts come form the fact that my fam is from hampton and norfolk so I get the full skins barrage every season. But hey if you have all this knowledge then demostrate it dont just tel me you have it.

 

[DLCassidy]

First of all your idea of 'leadership' is what the military has been pimping for the past century. After world war ii and before our debaucles in asia the miltiary and miltary thought was in high vogue in entertainment and corporate culture. It is no coiincidence that in the 50s when sports figures such as landry and lombardi emerged as great leaders in this time period.

Haha. It was the time period that made them appear great? Not the fact that they won and won big? We don't have to speculate about the effectiveness of Lombardi and Landry's methods- they are proven. Football IS partly about coercion, it's a game that asks players to do things that aren't logical or often pleasant. Anyway good discussion. I'm pleased as punch that as of this morning none of it matters because Turner ain't coming here. IMO Phillips is a logical choice and he'll be a much better HC than Norv would have.

 

[Om]

Heres a better idea. since you have this huge wealth of information then how about you give examplesof how my takes are wrong.

I back up what i say with facts and logic but at the same time you cant even do that with your 'wealth' of knowledge. I may seem very arrogant and condescending a fact that my girlfriend loves to point out when I go too far but when you prove me wrong im not afraid to admit it. BigD did that in this very thread.

I stand by my statement that you guys had a very good thing going with Turner in 1998-1999 and Snyder basically screwed it up. You like snyder apparently and dont see that and thats fine but it is a fact that Turner and Snyder clashed over George and that Snyder held him responsible for the kicking games.

Snyder had him fired in the middle of that season amidst a swirl of controversy and Norv had you guys cooking.

i provide links and a lot of these facts come form the fact that my fam is from hampton and norfolk so I get the full skins barrage every season. But hey if you have all this knowledge then demostrate it dont just tel me you have it.

It had zero to do with my feelings about Dan Snyder, chief. You keep going off on tangents.

You were comfortable enough pontificating on Norv's tenure in DC that it peaked my curiosity as to how much of your comfort came from actual observation, and how much from simply connecting the dots of the superficial kinds of "truths" one gets about teams they don't actually follow intimately. Kind of like I would be doing if I presumed to lecture you on Dave Campo's tenure in Dallas were he coming to coach the Skins, and I was trying my level best to put a good spin on it.

By not answering, however, I think you've answered my question. So I'm good there. And there's nothing in it for me to write a dissertation on Mr. Turner's Excellent DC Adventure for your amusement anyway. If you really want to learn about it, come spend some time with people who lived through it, ask some good questions, and open your mind to the answers people will be only too happy to impart.

Either way ... it's moot now given the Phillips news.

Bummer.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It had zero to do with my feelings about Dan Snyder, chief. You keep going off on tangents.

You were comfortable enough pontificating on Norv's tenure in DC that it peaked my curiosity as to how much of your comfort came from actual observation, and how much from simply connecting the dots of the superficial kinds of "truths" one gets about teams they don't actually follow intimately. Kind of like I would be doing if I presumed to lecture you on Dave Campo's tenure in Dallas were he coming to coach the Skins, and I was trying my level best to put a good spin on it.

By not answering, however, I think you've answered my question. So I'm good there. And there's nothing in it for me to write a dissertation on Mr. Turner's Excellent DC Adventure for your amusement anyway. If you really want to learn about it, come spend some time with people who lived through it, ask some good questions, and open your mind to the answers people will be only too happy to impart.

Either way ... it's moot now given the Phillips news.

Bummer.

Straight from the land of the weak. Like i said my entire family is from the Chesapeake Bay area and I get CONSTANT updates especially from my cousin. i call him quite often especially when i get into debates with skins fans. i do not read the sports page in the washington post however.

Furthermore, you act as if being a rabid fan is the best way to truly get a feel for what is going on with the team. Are you familiar with the propoganda effect or how being emotionally involved makes you actually worse at making an evaluation not better.

You may have been aware of a new report 8 years ago about a minicamp but i can almost guarantee you that you dont remember the specifics. All of your responses were about how you were 'frustrated' with 'Nice Norv' or how you were pulling out your hair about milquetoast. There were no specific instances related nothing.

You basically told me an emotion and a buzzword that you related that emotion to. That is the propaganda effect. If you think that for a second that I or anyone else should take your view on the team based on propoganda that you were impressed by then you can start holding your breath now.

Again, I looked up specific articles and talked to people the i know about specifics. i was not angry 8 years ago about the team and have preconceived emotionally based notions. You did and until you can demonstrate your knowledge better than i told you so why shold anyone care?

 

[Om]

Straight from the land of the weak. Like i said my entire family is from the Chesapeake Bay area and I get CONSTANT updates especially from my cousin. i call him quite often especially when i get into debates with skins fans. i do not read the sports page in the washington post however.

Furthermore, you act as if being a rabid fan is the best way to truly get a feel for what is going on with the team. Are you familiar with the propoganda effect or how being emotionally involved makes you actually worse at making an evaluation not better.

You may have been aware of a new report 8 years ago about a minicamp but i can almost guarantee you that you dont remember the specifics. All of your responses were about how you were 'frustrated' with 'Nice Norv' or how you were pulling out your hair about milquetoast. There were no specific instances related nothing.

You basically told me an emotion and a buzzword that you related that emotion to. That is the propaganda effect. If you think that for a second that I or anyone else should take your view on the team based on propoganda that you were impressed by then you can start holding your breath now.

Again, I looked up specific articles and talked to people the i know about specifics. i was not angry 8 years ago about the team and have preconceived emotionally based notions. You did and until you can demonstrate your knowledge better than i told you so why shold anyone care?

Propanda? Good grief. Your girlfriend seems quite perceptive.

So far you've basically said you've based your pontification about Norv Turner's seven years on reading a few news articles and talking to your cousin who lives 5 hours from DC. Impressive.

Me, in addition to actually being here every single day and seeing things for myself, and reading all the daily stuff, also watched 28 preseason, 109 regular season and 2 playoff games. Most of them more than once. What can I say, it's a sickness.

Point is ... since you either cannot or will not see the difference in the quantity and quality of actual observational differences between the two of us on this one, and extrapolate from that who's coming at this from more solid ground ... it's pretty clear which one of us is really blowing "propaganda" out his blowhole.

Know another difference between us? I know when to stop.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Propanda? Good grief. Your girlfriend seems quite perceptive.

So far you've basically said you've based your pontification about Norv Turner's seven years on reading a few news articles and talking to your cousin who lives 5 hours from DC. Impressive.

Me, in addition to actually being here every single day and seeing things for myself, and reading all the daily stuff, also watched 28 preseason, 109 regular season and 2 playoff games. Most of them more than once. What can I say, it's a sickness.

Point is ... since you either cannot or will not see the difference in the quantity and quality of actual observational differences between the two of us on this one, and extrapolate from that who's coming at this from more solid ground ... it's pretty clear which one of us is really blowing "propaganda" out his blowhole.

Know another difference between us? I know when to stop.

For all of your information you still posit nothing substantive beyond your emotional impression from 8 years ago and your smarmy Im a bigger Commanders fan than you are so i must be right drivel.

Spare me. You mentioned that i had brought up half truths and innuendo. Im still waiting for a specific explanation of what you are talking about and some sort proof supposrting your side.

If you repeat the I watch them every day so i must know better argument again Im not even going to respond because you apparently are too stupid to figure out why that doesnt apply. Ive expalined it several times and you respond ad hominem. Im not going down that road again. If you have problems understanding where im coming from then ask someone else to expplain it. Ive tried but apparently i dont speak ignorant well enough.

In simpler terms that perhaps you can understand put your money where your mouth is.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Anyway i have an ODE exam to go take. Itll give you time to come up with something more substantive than the 'I watch them more than you so I must know better' argument.

Im waiting with bated breath.

 

[Om]

Anyway i have an ODE exam to go take. Itll give you time to come up with something more substantive than the 'I watch them more than you so I must know better' argument.

Im waiting with bated breath.

Sorry to make you wait. Figured rather than keep telling you what was going to happen, I'd just wait until it did. More your speed I think.

The Turner Zone

QUARTERLY REPORT

It wasn’t supposed to happen this fast.

It was supposed to come down to a single, edge-of-your-seat “must” division game in December, after his Chargers had teased and tortured their fans for most of the season, sometimes looking crisp and professional and winning the way a team as talented as they are should, then, suddenly, looking as lifeless and inept as ... well ... as they did yesterday.

Instead ...

The 1-2 Kansas City Chiefs.

In San Diego.

A 16-6 halftime lead.

You turn away for a second, turn back, and ...

Kansas City 30
San Diego 16

Chiefs rally for 24 unanswered points to defeat Chargers

Associated Press

SAN DIEGO -- The sorry state of the San Diego Chargers can be summed up in one word: "MAR-TY! MAR-TY! MAR-TY!"

Tony Gonzalez had a record-tying day with the 62nd touchdown reception of his career as the Chiefs defeated the Chargers in San Diego. More ...

The Kansas City Chiefs capitalized on two Chargers turnovers with TDns in the second half to come from behind and beat the Bolts. More ...

The fans have had it just four games into Norv Turner's tenure as head coach, and Sunday's shocking 30-16 loss to the Kansas City Chiefs -- who rallied for 24 straight points and got huge plays from two rookies -- caused the Chargers fans to lose their Southern California cool.

After booing ineffective quarterback Philip Rivers for most of the second half, the fans amped up their anger.

When Rivers threw the last of four straight incompletions from the Kansas City 5-yard line with less than four minutes left, those who weren't streaming out of Qualcomm Stadium started chanting "MAR-TY! MAR-TY! MAR-TY!" in obvious reference to coach Marty Schottenheimer, who was fired in February due to his icy relationship with general manager A.J. Smith.

The Chargers have been unproductive and disorganized under Turner, looking nothing like the team that led the NFL last year with 492 points and 14 wins -- both franchise records -- before their playoff pratfall against New England. Turner's overall record in three NFL head coaching stints is 59-85-1.

"They pay their money," said a frustrated LaDainian Tomlinson, the reigning league MVP who doubled his season output by rushing for 132 yards and one score, only to see his Chargers lose their third straight game to fall to 1-3, one more loss than they had under Schottenheimer last regular season.

"They have a right to voice their opinion, just like everybody else," he said. "They showed their frustration with us, the way we've been playing. I can't say that I blame them..."

*

2006 Rankings (16 games; 14-2)

Offense ... 4
Defense ... 10

2007 Rankings (4 games; 1-3)

Offense ... 27
Defense ... 18


*


Discovered a kindred spirit. This guy gets it and them some. In fact, I am humbled.

http://thecoachiskillingme.wordpress.com/


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