Former players etc. opine on Norv

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And Snyder bought the team in 1999.

Accuracy counts.

As to the implication however, assuming you meant to say 1999 ... perhaps all Norv needs is to coach somewhere where the owner is completely hands off.

Ahem.

Apparently i am a bit off on the timeline but the point indeed is no owner where the players cna go over his head whether Jones will allow that remains to be seen.

 

[Om]

Apparently i am a bit off on the timeline but the point indeed is no owner where the players cna go over his head whether Jones will allow that remains to be seen.

Not sure why you'd think it's the owner that "lets" players walk all over the head coach. The head coach of a professional football team either commands respect in his locker room or he doesn't. It has nothing to do with who the players might run to if he doesn't.

The heavy preponderance of the evidence over nine years as a head coach is that this is Norv Turner's single most glaring weakness--he's too damn nice a guy to be the Designated Hardass when necessary and his locker room gets away from him. And it has translated directly to the kind of collapses--both within games and over the course of seasons--that have been the hallmark of Norv Turner teams. They are undisciplined, leaderless and too often can't get up off the canvas in crunch time.

Still, though, I understand where you're coming from, and in your shoes I'd be looking at this the exact same way. IF he can leap the chasm between OC and HC this time, and IF he gets a good defense rigth from jump to support him, and IF he has developed anough sac to stare down a guy like TO in front of the team, and IF Jones doesn't meddle with and undermine him ... he could turn out great.

Thing is, I've worn those shoes. Wore 'em for seven long years. And I'd not bet my lunch money there's any tread left.

 

[DLCassidy]

Caldwell/Rivera/Garrett is far and away my first choice.

I have no idea whether Caldwell is head coaching material, not sure anyone does, but we know Norv can't do it so it would be a better choice by default.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Not sure why you'd think it's the owner that "lets" players walk all over the head coach. The head coach of a professional football team either commands respect in his locker room or he doesn't. It has nothing to do with who they might run to if they don't.

The heavy preponderance of the evidence over nine years as a head coach is that this is Norv Turner's single most glaring weakness--he's too damn nice a guy to be the Designated Hardass when necessary and his locker room gets away from him. And it has translated directly to the kind of collapses--both within games and over the course of seasons--that have been the hallmark of Norv Turner teams. They are undisciplined, leaderless and too often can't get up off the canvas in crunch time.

Still, though, I understand where you're coming from, and in your shoes I'd be looking at this the exact same way. IF he can bridge the gap between OC and HC this time, and IF he gets a good defense rigth from jump to support him, and IF he has developed anough sac to stare down a guy like TO in front of the team, and IF Jones doesn't meddle with and undermine him ... he could turn out great.

Thing is, I've worn those shoes. Wore 'em for seven long years. And I'd not bet my lunch money there's any tread left.

Ive read that as well and most of it comes down to the lockerroom after his last game in Washington adn allusions to second half collapses.

Its funny here in Dallas we have hammered Zimmer for theese very same things. When you collapse that normally means you are getting scored on.

That being said i still think at least as far as that lockerroom 8 years ago it came down to Snyder making it very well known that Turner was not his man and the writing was on the wall.

in his defense, in Oakland at least as far as the offense was concerned, those guys played very hard despite all the losing AND a culture where Al Davis lets you do whatever as long as you are one of his guys. Even Sapp who is a noted malcontent was respectful even though he was flaming pissed for being grossly misused.


Guys like Woodson who had pulling these types of stunts before Turner simply continued to do so.

So which one is it? i dunno. all i do know is that players like Romo and Barber will likely look very good under Turner. in my mind thats not even a question.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I have no idea whether Caldwell is head coaching material, not sure anyone does, but we know Norv can't do it so it would be a better choice by default.

im sorry but really takes like this posit absolutely nothing. if you dont like him and thats all you can say then go make a poll or something because that has just about as much worth.

norv had his failures and i have endeavoured to figure out as to why he did because OMG he actually does have some good qualities.

you still are looking at the HC and a vacuum regardless. Caldwell/Bowles/Garett is a trainwreck waiting to happen.

 

[Om]

Ive read that as well and most of it comes down to the lockerroom after his last game in Washington adn allusions to second half collapses.

Its funny here in Dallas we have hammered Zimmer for theese very same things. When you collapse that normally means you are getting scored on.

That being said i still think at least as far as that lockerroom 8 years ago it came down to Snyder making it very well known that Turner was not his man and the writing was on the wall.

Guy, Norv had Commanders fans pulling their hair out over his milquetoast (another term his reign brought to the lexicon) teams a full two and a half years before Snyder ever appeared on the radar. The wheels started coming off for Norv as early as 1996 when a 7-1 start ended in an utter playoffs-less collapse without even a decent bang--more a soggy whimper.

You keep finding reasons to blame everything and everyone one BUT Norv Turner for his record. From the perspective of someone who saw his teams close up and in person from start to finish, you're engaging in wishful thinking.

At some point, you are what your record says you are. I think a big fish said that once.

in his defense, in Oakland at least as far as the offense was concerned, those guys played very hard despite all the losing AND a culture where Al Davis lets you do whatever as long as you are one of his guys. Even Sapp who is a noted malcontent was respectful even though he was flaming pissed for being grossly misused.

Guys like Woodson who had pulling these types of stunts before Turner simply continued to do so.

So which one is it? i dunno. all i do know is that players like Romo and Barber will likely look very good under Turner. in my mind thats not even a question.

You may be right. They may play hard for him. We had guys who played hard for him too. Terry Allen, Stephen Davis, Darrell Green and Ken Harvey spring to mind. Hell, even Mike Westbrook parked his Lamborghini long enough to run a strong out pattern once in a while. Sapp, Moss, Porter ... hey, they're great, proud players. Never suggested otherwise.

Problem is, Norv's teams always lost when it counted most anyway. That's the point.

 

[BigDFan5]

So you only posted the negative quotes. A little biased there aren't you.
I'm not advocating Turner for HC. But be objective. It's not like robiske set the team on fire, he didn't last long did he.

I will ask you like I asked others can you find any quotes from people who played under him as a HC that had positive things to say after he left?

 

[DallasCowpoke]

Sometimes his teams will put on a show for 4 quarters and post an impressive win over a good opponent and have you thinking, "damn, we're on our way." And he'll get you to a key game with all signs pointing to a win.

And then his team will fail to show up, and get rolled. Often against clearly lesser opponents. Worse, his team will often play well enough to win in a big game, even dominate statistically ... and still maddeningly, repeatedly, find a new and creative mind-numbing, gut-wrenching way to give the game away.

Norv Turner won't give you a 5-11 team.

He'll give you a team just good enough to break your heart.

Year after year after year.

Gee, that sounds familiar!

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Guy, Norv had Commanders fans pulling their hair out over his milquetoast (another term his reign brought to the lexicon) teams a full two and a half years before Snyder ever appeared on the radar. The wheels started coming off for Norv as early as 1996 when a 7-1 start ended in an utter playoffs-less collapse without even a decent bang--more a soggy whimper.

You keep finding reasons to blame everything and everyone one BUT Norv Turner for his record. From the perspective of someone who saw his teams close up and in person from start to finish, you're engaging in wishful thinking.

At some point, you are what your record says you are. I think a big fish said that once.


You may be right. They may play hard for him. We had guys who played hard for him too. Terry Allen, Stephen Davis, Darrell Green and Ken Harvey spring to mind. Hell, even Mike Westbrook parked his Lamborghini long enough to run a strong out pattern once in a while. Sapp, Moss, Porter ... hey, they're great, proud players. Never suggested otherwise.

Problem is, Norv's teams keep losing anyway. That's the point.

Umm actually I pointed out three major flaws as to why i think hes been a failure. Im saying that the Cookes previosu to Snyder DID NOT interfere so then it must have been something else such as his complete ineptness when it comes to defense.

Eddie Murray missed short or his defenses gave up late leads as if that should have been any surprise. What you call milquetoast i call defensive ineptness. I never said the guy didnt have his flaws. The players are uninspired is just a buzzphrase from fans who dont know what the heck is going on.

As to the fans and their opinions of the guy or hair pulling 10 years ago i could really care less. It has ZERO to do with the guys actual ability to coach. 90% of the peope that call themselves fans dont even know who is in the meeting room much less what actually goes on in there.

The reality of the situation was that in 1998 Turner actually go something going; Johnson and Davis got on a roll and despite his shortcomings on defense he still won. Im sure you were quite happy that year.

In comes 1999 and Snyder and George and Smith and Coleman and Sanders. His offense still carried that tripe for the first half of that season but eventually Snyder started openly questioning Turners choice at QB in favor of all people JEFF GEORGE and how could Turner not be able to get a kicker. Im sure you are familiar with the tale of Casserly and he shanking kicks on the practice field. Those games were lost on FGs after a 7-1 start.

With all the new guys esp old vets who were underperforming and the place was already a lockerroom disaster waiting to happen. Snyder screwed Turner that year. It was very well known that Snyder wanted to bring in his own man but he could justify firing Turner because he had just won a playoff game so Snyder killed him slowly.

So he goes off to oakland and he can get the same magic out of Collins/Zeroue that he did with Johnson/Davis so he lost some more. Same cluelessness on defense and outside of the WR positiona nd Burgess there is no talent on that Raiders team.

Now that i realize that Snyder wsnt even there until 99 it now just pisses me off. Turner got screwed and didnt even get a kiss.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I will ask you like I asked others can you find any quotes from people who played under him as a HC that had positive things to say after he left?

jerry Porter of the Oakland Raiders did i posted it in this thread.

 

[trickblue]

jerry Porter of the Oakland Raiders did i posted it in this thread.

If Norv does come here, how long before the "Trade for Jerry Porter" threads start...

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If Norv does come here, how long before the "Trade for Jerry Porter" threads start...

TO for Porter WOOHOO.

 

[DLCassidy]

im sorry but really takes like this posit absolutely nothing. if you dont like him and thats all you can say then go make a poll or something because that has just about as much worth.

norv had his failures and i have endeavoured to figure out as to why he did because OMG he actually does have some good qualities.

you still are looking at the HC and a vacuum regardless. Caldwell/Bowles/Garett is a trainwreck waiting to happen.

Saying that you're going to pick the head coach based on how he may help develop the QB is backwards thinking. That's not to say developing the QB isn't very important or desirable. It's just not a good reason to hire a HC. There are 53 guys on the team and your evaluation of a HC'ing candidate has to be how will this man lead ALL 53, not 1. We don't need to over analyze Norv as a HC- his record speaks for itself. Norv is the train wreck. If Garrett has .10 of the coaching talent JJ thinks he has, he will be plenty of help to Romo. But the D as it is needs fire from the top man- Norv won't give that, it doesn't matter why, it's just his personality. Because of the stupidity of hiring Garrett 1st I think you probably go with a gray beard like Phillips who knows defense. But I'd be open to Singletary or Rivera or Caldwell if they show they have a plan and can show they're ready to lead. Norv as a HC is a non starter.

 

[trickblue]

TO for Porter WOOHOO.

I was thinking more along the lines of Coakley for Porter...

 

[Om]

Umm actually I pointed out three major flaws as to why i think hes been a failure. Im saying that the Cookes previosu to Snyder DID NOT interfere so then it must have been something else such as his complete ineptness when it comes to defense.

Eddie Murray missed short or his defenses gave up late leads as if that should have been any surprise. What you call milquetoast i call defensive ineptness. I never said the guy didnt have his flaws. The players are uninspired is just a buzzphrase from fans who dont know what the heck is going on.

As to the fans and their opinions of the guy or hair pulling 10 years ago i could really care less. It has ZERO to do with the guys actual ability to coach. 90% of the peope that call themselves fans dont even know who is in the meeting room much less what actually goes on in there.

Uh oh. When the other guy starts falling back on this kind of banal MB 101 rhetoric, it's my signal to find something better to do with my time. The unselfconscious hypocrisy here is so thick I'd need a lifetime's worth of Ginsu's to cut through it. They may only cost me $49.95 a set, but it adds up.

The reality of the situation was that in 1998 Turner actually go something going; Johnson and Davis got on a roll and despite his shortcomings on defense he still won. Im sure you were quite happy that year.

In comes 1999 and Snyder and George and Smith and Coleman and Sanders. His offense still carried that tripe for the first half of that season but eventually Snyder started openly questioning Turners choice at QB in favor of all people JEFF GEORGE and how could Turner not be able to get a kicker. Im sure you are familiar with the tale of Casserly and he shanking kicks on the practice field. Those games were lost on FGs after a 7-1 start.

With all the new guys esp old vets who were underperforming and the place was already a lockerroom disaster waiting to happen. Snyder screwed Turner that year. It was very well known that Snyder wanted to bring in his own man but he could justify firing Turner because he had just won a playoff game so Snyder killed him slowly.

So he goes off to oakland and he can get the same magic out of Collins/Zeroue that he did with Johnson/Davis so he lost some more. Same cluelessness on defense and outside of the WR positiona nd Burgess there is no talent on that Raiders team.

Now that i realize that Snyder wsnt even there until 99 it now just pisses me off. Turner got screwed and didnt even get a kiss.

Nothing but a long litany of excuses for Norv's failings.

Sorry compadre, your little "historical perspective" is so riddled with half-truths and false assumptions I simply don't have the time or inclination to wade through it. I'm not too worried about it though, as anyone who truly followed those teams through those years can probably spot see them as clearly as I can. If others can't, well, that's fine with me too. Remember, I WANT you guys to hire Norv.

If Norv becomes your head coach, you better hope you know as much about what led to NINE YEARS of his teams walking up to the line and tripping over it, over and over and over again, as you clearly think you do.

Perhaps we'll have occasion to revisit this topic in 3 or 4 years.

 

[Randy White]

I've never been a proponent of Turner as the head coach, but the more Washington fans who tell me he was the problem the more I hope he does just to see the look on their faces when he beats them like a red-headed stepchild.

Hey, quick questions:

So how's Joe Gibbs, the "hardass", three times Superbowl Champion Hall of Famer doing with the Deadskins ?

And yet somebody still brings quotes from former Deadskins players, 10-15 years ago who were a piece of garbage ?

Oh, and the Circus LeRaiders. ?.

Yea, Norv is this, Norv is that. blah blah blah

Some people in here worship at a Jimmah Jenius altar despite the Jenius doing absolutely nothing down here and leaving with the memory of a 62-0 butt whipping at the hands of Jade Fiedler and Jax Jaguars. Some people in here ask for assistant coaches who were mediocre as head coaches ( see Philips ). Some people in here scream for " hot assistants " even though none of them have proven a damn thing.

Bottom line is that there's evidence to prove for or against Norv, for or against Rivera, for or against Philips, and for or against " you name the latest hot assitant in the leauge ", and nobody really knows what's going to happen so chill, let the situation play out and keep an open mind. In today's NFL, you simply don't know who's going to be on top tomorrow or who's not.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Saying that you're going to pick the head coach based on how he may help develop the QB is backwards thinking. That's not to say developing the QB isn't very important or desirable. It's just not a good reason to hire a HC. There are 53 guys on the team and your evaluation of a HC'ing candidate has to be how will this man lead ALL 53, not 1. We don't need to over analyze Norv as a HC- his record speaks for itself. Norv is the train wreck. If Garrett has .10 of the coaching talent JJ thinks he has, he will be plenty of help to Romo. But the D as it is needs fire from the top man- Norv won't give that, it doesn't matter why, it's just his personality. Because of the stupidity of hiring Garrett 1st I think you probably go with a gray beard like Phillips who knows defense. But I'd be open to Singletary or Rivera or Caldwell if they show they have a plan and can show they're ready to lead. Norv as a HC is a non starter.

Actually this is complete and utter misrepresentation of the reality of the situation. Fact of the matter is that MANY highly successful head coaches have been offensive minds that turned over the defensive side of the ball over to the DC. Lets see what comes to mind.

Mike Shanahan and Greg Robinson won two Super Bowls using this model. Mike Holmgren and Ray Rhodes won two as well. Andy Reid and Jim Johnson went to the NFC Championship game three times using this model. Joe Gibbs and Greg williams parleyed that system into a playoff run.

on each and every one of those teams it was in no question who ran which side of the ball. the model can and has worked VERY well in the past the only problem is that outside of one year of Ray Rhodes, Turner never has.

 

[DLCassidy]

Perhaps we'll have occasion to revisit this topic in 3 or 4 years.

:abuseme:

 

[DLCassidy]

Actually this is complete and utter misrepresentation of the reality of the situation. Fact of the matter is that MANY highly successful head coaches have been offensive minds that turned over the defensive side of the ball over to the DC. Lets see what comes to mind.

Mike Shanahan and Greg Robinson won two Super Bowls using this model. Mike Holmgren and Ray Rhodes won two as well. Andy Reid and Jim Johnson went to the NFC Championship game three times using this model. Joe Gibbs and Greg williams parleyed that system into a playoff run.

on each and every one of those teams it was in no question who ran which side of the ball. the model can and has worked VERY well in the past the only problem is that outside of one year of Ray Rhodes, Turner never has.

It's not about models it's about leadership. You could have Lombardi as OC and Landry as DC and Norv would still "mess" it up because he's not a leader. Shanahan is a leader- that's why he wins.

 

[DallasCowpoke]

Bottom line is that there's evidence to prove for or against Norv, for or against Rivera, for or against Philips, and for or against " you name the latest hot assitant in the leauge ", and nobody really knows what's going to happen so chill, let the situation play out and keep an open mind. In today's NFL, you simply don't know who's going to be on top tomorrow or who's not.

Agree 100%!