Former players etc. opine on Norv

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Uh oh. When the other guy starts falling back on this kind of banal MB 101 rhetoric, it's my signal to find something better to do with my time. The unselfconscious hypocrisy here is so thick I'd need a lifetime's worth of Ginsu's to cut through it. They may only cost me $49.95 a set, but it adds up.


Nothing but a long litany of excuses for Norv's failings.

Sorry compadre, your little "historical perspective" is so riddled with half-truths and false assumptions I simply don't have the time or inclination to wade through it. I'm not too worried about it though, as anyone who truly followed those teams through those years can probably spot see them as clearly as I can. If others can't, well, that's fine with me too. Remember, I WANT you guys to hire Norv.

If Norv becomes your head coach, you better hope you know as much about what led to NINE YEARS of his teams walking up to the line and tripping over it, over and over and over again, as you clearly think you do.

Perhaps we'll have occasion to revisit this topic in 3 or 4 years.

Calling on popular appeal is a fallacy. What the fans think has ZERO correlation to the actual effects Turner had. im beginning to realize that you are a Snyder fan and thus you getting upset and what not.

And exactly half truths am i talking about here. HEREis an article from the sporting news talking about the not so well hidden rift between the tow about George. And are you trying to say the story about Casserly and he on the practice field as Snyder failed to make FGs is false. Or perhaps you are saying that the control freak didnt want to put his own man in place?

Come now skins fan youre all nice until i make good points and you get mad. You had a playoff team and Snyder scuttled it so he could put his own mark on the team. You guys sucking ws his fault in this millenium and certainly not Turners.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's not about models it's about leadership. You could have Lombardi as OC and Landry as DC and Norv would still "mess" it up because he's not a leader. Shanahan is a leader- that's why he wins.

Sorry I see that as pie in the sky nonsense. I have led projects and teams so dont even start with the you dont know what leadership is diatribe.

In the long run charisma and steadfastness only gets you so far and that really is what you are equating leadership to. in my experience charisma helps to show your competence and steadfastness will maintain the perception of competence but in the end it is you rcompetence that people follow.

Lombardi won because he created a new form of offense that noone could handle not because of 'leadership.' Landry won because he created the 4-3 in NY and refined it to the flex here in Dallas.

Norv is competent. As a result of that he has players from Aikman to Porter that will follow him. unfortunately his competence does not extend to the other side of the ball.

Mike Shanahan is actually the worst example you could have used as he is NOTORIOUS for neglecting the defensive side of the ball and if thats leadership to you then i suppose well just have to agree to disagree.

Bill Belichek is the crowning example of how tradional leadership qualities are garbage. He has teh charisma of a toilet seat and when he gets stressed he looks constipated. However his players follow him. Its not because hes a 'leader.' its because hes right.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

It's not about models it's about leadership. You could have Lombardi as OC and Landry as DC and Norv would still "mess" it up because he's not a leader. Shanahan is a leader- that's why he wins.

Not a "leader" yet there are some former players that would seemingly run through walls for him if he asked.

I have a little insight into the workings of a coaching staff of a professional sports team so believe me when I say that the dynamics of the overall staff are more important than the ability of any one coach/manager.

I'll say again, Turner wouldn't be my first choice but he can be successful if a few other members of his staff are willing to be the bad guy occasionally and the front office has his back every time.

 

[lspain1]

Bottom line is that there's evidence to prove for or against Norv, for or against Rivera, for or against Philips, and for or against " you name the latest hot assitant in the leauge ", and nobody really knows what's going to happen so chill, let the situation play out and keep an open mind. In today's NFL, you simply don't know who's going to be on top tomorrow or who's not.

Our latest experience with Parcells certainly lends SOME credence to this point of view. However, I recognize that pretty much everyone agrees that Parcells left the Cowboys in better shape than he found them. I don't think you can find anyone who would say Turner did the same at any of his HC stops.

The ABN crowd does have an argument. I just don't think they have a good case to make "for" any of the other folks and crucifying Norv is pretty much their only input.

 

[DLCassidy]

Sorry I see that as pie in the sky nonsense. I have led projects and teams so dont even start with the you dont know what leadership is diatribe.

I'm sure your resume is impressive but if you think Norv's a leader then I beg to differ. If he is he's been hiding it for 9 years.

In the long run charisma and steadfastness only gets you so far and that really is what you are equating leadership to. in my experience charisma helps to show your competence and steadfastness will maintain the perception of competence but in the end it is you rcompetence that people follow.

You're putting words in my mouth. There are a ton of different personalities that can be effective and in the end there has to be substance behind it. But what is it about Norv's record leads you to think he inspires the kind of confidence the HOF coaches you're citing did/do? Is it all the losing? The lack of discipline by his players? The fact that his teams were highly penalized? What?

Lombardi won because he created a new form of offense that noone could handle not because of 'leadership.'

So Vince was 105-35-6 because of the Power Sweep? Vince was a whole lot more than an innovator. He was the anti Norv.

Norv is competent. As a result of that he has players from Aikman to Porter that will follow him. unfortunately his competence does not extend to the other side of the ball.

He's a good coordinator and a poor HC.

 

[DLCassidy]

Not a "leader" yet there are some former players that would seemingly run through walls for him if he asked.

I have a little insight into the workings of a coaching staff of a professional sports team so believe me when I say that the dynamics of the overall staff are more important than the ability of any one coach/manager.

I'll say again, Turner wouldn't be my first choice but he can be successful if a few other members of his staff are willing to be the bad guy occasionally and the front office has his back every time.

To win a SB you need more than a few guys willing too run through the wall, you need all 53. I agree the staff is a big deal. But the fish stinks from the head down. And if the players don't really believe in the HC you ain't winning.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

To win a SB you need more than a few guys willing too run through the wall, you need all 53. I agree the staff is a big deal. But the fish stinks from the head down. And if the players don't really believe in the HC you ain't winning.

Gruden won a SB in Tampa and half the team couldn't stand him. Have you ever read what some former Buccaneers have said about him? They went all out because they wanted a ring, not because the coach motivated them.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm sure your resume is impressive but if you think Norv's a leader then I beg to differ. If he is he's been hiding it for 9 years.



You're putting words in my mouth. There are a ton of different personalities that can be effective and in the end there has to be substance behind it. But what is it about Norv's record leads you to think he inspires the kind of confidence the HOF coaches you're citing did/do? Is it all the losing? The lack of discipline by his players? The fact that his teams were highly penalized? What?


So Vince was 105-35-6 because of the Power Sweep? Vince was a whole lot more than an innovator. He was the anti Norv.


He's a good coordinator and a poor HC.

So basically now youre saying that you cannot quantify what leadership is but you know that he doesnt have it because in order for him to have it he would have won. Are you in the militarry or just a WASP over the age of 45?

Yes I am saying that Lombardi won because he was an innovator first and as a leader next. Same with Landry. You put those words into your mouth the moment you used those two men. They are stereotypes of the charismatic and steadfast leader that i talk of.

i will also say that Lombardi for all his 'leadership' would not have had nearly the record without the power sweep just as Landry wouldnt have won a super bowl without his flex defense.

Besides being a circular argument it truly does not hold water. The scenarios of the coaches i jmentioned in the original response contradict your premise even with your they won so they must be a leader. And Belichek is the poster boy of why your leadership idea is false.

But most of all if you think that it takes all 53 players of a team to completely buy into what the HC says for him to be successful then noone would ever win.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Gruden won a SB in Tampa and half the team couldn't stand him. Have you ever read what some former Buccaneers have said about him? They went all out because they wanted a ring, not because the coach motivated them.

Well that and hes one damn creative person when it comes to offense.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

So Vince was 105-35-6 because of the Power Sweep? Vince was a whole lot more than an innovator. He was the anti Norv.

Again, you're putting too much value on a head coach. What did this legendary "leadership" quality get Lombardi in Washington?

Green Bay won due to having better players and a coaching staff who gave those players a chance to succeed by playing to their strengths.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

Well that and hes one damn creative person when it comes to offense.

Do you really think that that feeble offense lead them to a championship?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Do you really think that that feeble offense lead them to a championship?

I never said that. what i said was tht leading up to that year he had a track record as an offensive innovator having led the raiders to a prolific pass and run offense the previous two years.

Had it been Dave Campo that had come in there that year i doubt the players would have given the same response.

 

[DLCassidy]

So basically now youre saying that you cannot quantify what leadership is but you know that he doesnt have it because in order for him to have it he would have won. Are you in the militarry or just a WASP over the age of 45?

Yes I am saying that Lombardi won because he was an innovator first and as a leader next. Same with Landry. You put those words into your mouth the moment you used those two men. They are stereotypes of the charismatic and steadfast leader that i talk of.

i will also say that Lombardi for all his 'leadership' would not have had nearly the record without the power sweep just as Landry wouldnt have won a super bowl without his flex defense.

Besides being a circular argument it truly does not hold water. The scenarios of the coaches i jmentioned in the original response contradict your premise even with your they won so they must be a leader. And Belichek is the poster boy of why your leadership idea is false.

But most of all if you think that it takes all 53 players of a team to completely buy into what the HC says for him to be successful then noone would ever win.

Leadership is like pornography. It's hard to define it, but I'd know it when I see it. And so do players. I see that instead of answering my question about what in Norv's record gives you confidence he has it you question my background. It's not about me, it's about an above average OC that has shown nothing in his record as a HC on either side of the ball that he is a leader, innovator or winner. And yes i do judge him by his record. Why not?

 

[DLCassidy]

Again, you're putting too much value on a head coach. What did this legendary "leadership" quality get Lombardi in Washington?

Green Bay won due to having better players and a coaching staff who gave those players a chance to succeed by playing to their strengths.

Lombardi was old and riddled with cancer when he got to Washington. Sure you need good players, that's a given. But if someone is suggesting the Packers would have been the legendary team they were with Norv Turner behind the bench, well...:laugh2:

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Leadership is like pornography. It's hard to define it, but I'd know it when I see it. And so do players. I see that instead of answering my question about what in Norv's record gives you confidence he has it you question my background. It's not about me, it's about an above average OC that has shown nothing in his record as a HC on either side of the ball that he is a leader, innovator or winner. And yes i do judge him by his record. Why not?

I did not question your background. Its called anthropology and I know what the type of person displays the viewpoint you espouse.

I understand where you are coming from I just dont agree with it.

this becomes more apparent to me when people like Brad Johnsom go the extra mile after he not even on Norv's team anymore to beat the Commanders cause of how they treated Turner and Troy Aikman follows him into the hall of fame. That means the man has some strong leadership qualities as Aikman especially was not one prone to following anyone.

You can say hes got leadership qualities but hes not a leader or all 53 men have to go along with it but at that point its really just semantics.

Turner didnt lose in Washington because of his leadership skills. He lost because he missed horribly on Shuler and he doesnt know a thing about defense. Lombardi himself would have lost in Oakland leadership and all.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

Lombardi was old and riddled with cancer when he got to Washington. Sure you need good players, that's a given. But if someone is suggesting the Packers would have been the legendary team they were with Norv Turner behind the bench, well...:laugh2:

Umm. Barry Switzer won a Super Bowl.

 

[BigDFan5]

jerry Porter of the Oakland Raiders did i posted it in this thread.

ok thats one, lets see #2

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

ok thats one, lets see #2

hey if here was anyone that you could ever expect to be a malcontent it is that man. he followed norv.

that has more credence than a locker room full of guys that just saw him canned out of favor with the owner and rice who couldnt stand not being featured anymore.

 

[BigDFan5]

hey if here was anyone that you could ever expect to be a malcontent it is that man. he followed norv.

that has more credence than a locker room full of guys that just saw him canned out of favor with the owner and rice who couldnt stand not being featured anymore.

Sorry bud 1 guy does not outrank many many guys saying the same thing


Look at it in prospective what was Porters problem with Shell? it was Shell was a not a push over he wanted disipline. Of course Porter liked Norv, Norv is a pushover Porter got to do anything he wanted

 

[Kilyin]

Leadership is like pornography. It's hard to define it, but I'd know it when I see it.

Uh, I wouldn't call pornography hard to to define. Three words. Sex on camera.

But uh, yeah, good point.