FWST Blog: Sparano defends Jason Garrett; talks T.O.; liked Fasano trade

[Alexander]

Ayodele was going to get released, period. Wether you liked it or not, it was a done deal. He was NOT coming back in 2008.

So your beef is, essentially, that the Cowboys should have released him instead of including him in a trade ?

The issue is that I would not have slated him for imminent release.

Ayodele was not a world beater, but in retrospect was he was so much worse than what we replaced him with in Zach Thomas? Last we saw of him, he was taking a poor angle on McLain that allowed for the deciding score against Baltimore.

What is amazing about these trades to Miami is that everyone who took over for them in Dallas is gone or will be gone. Meanwhile, they are effective starters.

Tony Curtis was supposed to be so much better than Fasano. It is a toss up if he makes the team again.

Zach Thomas was supposed to be this great upgrade to Ayodele. He wasn't and probably won't return.

Tank Johnson was a liability at times and ended up being poisonous on the field in Philadelphia. He will be gone.

You can second guess this both ways. Certainly money was an issue with both Ferguson and Ayodele. But who was responsible for those lopsided contracts? That's right, the same GM who felt compelled to cut losses with them several years later in what amounted to a fire sale and the Dolphins all got bargains and players who are starting and who BTW also made the playoffs while we sat at home.

All of this spin and rationalization does not speak to how the situation was not a win or even a wash. I am sure Coach Parcells and Sparano appreciated the favors.

 

[Hostile]

The issue is that I would not have slated him for imminent release.

Ayodele was not a world beater, but in retrospect was he was so much worse than what we replaced him with in Zach Thomas? Last we saw of him, he was taking a poor angle on McLain that allowed for the deciding score against Baltimore.

What is amazing about these trades to Miami is that everyone who took over for them in Dallas is gone or will be gone. Meanwhile, they are effective starters.

Tony Curtis was supposed to be so much better than Fasano. It is a toss up if he makes the team again.

Zach Thomas was supposed to be this great upgrade to Ayodele. He wasn't and probably won't return.

Tank Johnson was a liability at times and ended up being poisonous on the field in Philadelphia. He will be gone.

You can second guess this both ways. Certainly money was an issue with both Ferguson and Ayodele. But who was responsible for those lopsided contracts? That's right, the same GM who felt compelled to cut losses with them several years later in what amounted to a fire sale and the Dolphins all got bargains and players who are starting and who BTW also made the playoffs while we sat at home.

All of this spin and rationalization does not speak to how the situation was not a win or even a wash. I am sure Coach Parcells and Sparano appreciated the favors.

You wouldn't have. I would have. Money was an issue both times and freeing up cap room and getting better production from replacements at cheaper costs plus Draft picks is fine with me.

I can see the Cowboys doing the same thing with Anthony Henry this year. Againg, expensive, injury prone, drop off in production, and younger, hungrier athletes behind him who proved capable. If we pull the trigger and trade him I won't have any issue with it.

In 2007 Ayodele had 57 tackles. His replacement, Zach Thomas, had 52. The huge difference is Ayodele played 16 games and Thomas played 5. Zach was a cheaper option and an instant upgrade. I wish he'd come back.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Yeah as I recall this last season Zach Thomas was in on as many tackles in one season as Akin had been on in 2 years, maybe 3, here.

 

[Vinnie2u]

I might be mistaken but wasn't the Fergy trade for: swapping 6th Rounders in 08 and their 6th in 09? So Walden Could of been had with our original 6th last year and this years 6th is yet to be decided on..

 

[Randy White]

The issue is that I would not have slated him for imminent release.

Ayodele was not a world beater, but in retrospect was he was so much worse than what we replaced him with in Zach Thomas?

No, but he was schedule to make about 4 million dollars more than Thomas did and Thomas was more productive.

Last we saw of him, he was taking a poor angle on McLain that allowed for the deciding score against Baltimore.

Come on now, even if that was the case, what happened to the rest of the defense ? Where was the safety ? What happened to the DE that was supposed to stuff that side of the ball ? What happened to the persuit ?

What is amazing about these trades to Miami is that everyone who took over for them in Dallas is gone or will be gone. Meanwhile, they are effective starters. Tony Curtis was supposed to be so much better than Fasano. It is a toss up if he makes the team again.

Fasano wasn't traded to make room for Tony Curtis. He was traded because the powers that be thought he could be replaced by a much better player with more potential. The powers that be were right.

Zach Thomas was supposed to be this great upgrade to Ayodele. He wasn't and probably won't return.

He was. He had more tackles ( 94 ) and sacks ( 1 ) than Ayodole had down here (74) and ( 0 ). As a matter of fact, he had more tackles than Ayodole had in ANY year that he played in Dallas and Thomas did it while counting 4 millions less against the cap.

Tank Johnson was a liability at times and ended up being poisonous on the field in Philadelphia. He will be gone. You can second guess this both ways. Certainly money was an issue with both Ferguson and Ayodele. But who was responsible for those lopsided contracts? That's right, the same GM who felt compelled to cut losses with them several years later in what amounted to a fire sale and the Dolphins all got bargains and players who are starting and who BTW also made the playoffs while we sat at home.

a) So let me get this straight: They had " lopsided contracts " when they were in Dallas, but they are bargains with those same contracts in Miami ?

b) All the Dullphins accomplished was to play one more game than we did. When they actually had to play somebody who was good, they got exposed and eliminated. Just like they will get exposed this year when their schedule brings them back to reality.

All of this spin and rationalization does not speak to how the situation was not a win or even a wash. I am sure Coach Parcells and Sparano appreciated the favors.

Dude, Tashard Choice was a heck of a contributor for the Dallas Cowboys in 2008. Orlando Scandrick was a heck of a contributor to the Dallas Cowboys in 2008. That's not a " spin " or " rationalization ". It's a F-A-C-T.

You're so intent on criticizing Jerrah that all you're doing is trivializing the criticisims that he does deserve.

:starspin

 

[Alexander]

Come on now, even if that was the case, what happened to the rest of the defense ? Where was the safety ? What happened to the DE that was supposed to stuff that side of the ball ? What happened to the persuit ?

Thomas was the second level of defense and he was woefully out of position, but you expect Ken Hamlin to be more responsible? He was part of the entire flow of that play.

Fasano wasn't traded to make room for Tony Curtis. He was traded because the powers that be thought he could be replaced by a much better player with more potential. The powers that be were right.

I did not say he was traded to make room for Tony Curtis. I was referring to how quite a few people claimed at the time of the trade that Fasano was losing his job to him anyways and we should have been fortunate that our third tight end was traded for a 4th round draft choice.

It was not like the trade happened after the draft. If that were the case, all of these things mentioning Bennett that are being said to defend the deal would be true.

At the time there were no assurances. It was a gamble. Meanwhile the Dolphins did not have to gamble. They got three productive starters who were instrumental on that team making a turnaround.

He was. He had more tackles ( 94 ) and sacks ( 1 ) than Ayodole had down here (74) and ( 0 ). As a matter of fact, he had more tackles than Ayodole had in ANY year that he played in Dallas and Thomas did it while counting 4 millions less against the cap.

Note the word "great" that I used. Then revisit this. If you think 20 tackles and a sack that actually belonged to Demarcus Ware is that, so be it.

a) So let me get this straight: They had " lopsided contracts " when they were in Dallas, but they are bargains with those same contracts in Miami ?

No. Bargains for the cost they paid in terms of draft chocies. The contracts were what they were. And we made no attempt to renegotiate any of them. We simply cut bait thinking that we had better players in the fold. Turns out, we are now a year later with major needs at both nose tackle and inside linebacker. Strange how that turned out.

b) All the Dullphins accomplished was to play one more game than we did. When they actually had to play somebody who was good, they got exposed and eliminated. Just like they will get exposed this year when their schedule brings them back to reality.

Another rationalization. Well, they lost so it doesn't matter anyways. They had a great season.

And please be honest. If we went to the playoffs and were "exposed and eliminated" I doubt you would be disparaging the accomplishment to the extent you are doing to Miami right now. I am very certain there would be kudos all around for overcoming the challenges the team faced.

Come to think of it, we were "exposed and eliminated" in 2007. I don't recall much about how 13-3 was a phantom record and that a tougher schedule this season would bring this team "back to reality". It just makes everyone feel better to discount what the Dolphins accomplished. It was remarkable if someone does not sit around and poke holes in it to make themselves feel more secure.

I realize it hurts that a one win team can win ten times as many games the following year and go to the postseason while we are scrounging around for excuses and rationalizations like "well, we lost to the eventual conference champions in close games" as we lost four more games and were disgraced paper champions.

Dude, Tashard Choice was a heck of a contributor for the Dallas Cowboys in 2008. Orlando Scandrick was a heck of a contributor to the Dallas Cowboys in 2008. That's not a " spin " or " rationalization ". It's a F-A-C-T.

It is also a F-A-C-T that the Dolphins received three starters for what amounts to pittance.

You're so intent on criticizing Jerrah that all you're doing is trivializing the criticisims that he does deserve.

And that is different from blindly rationalizing a pair of lopsided trades that was driven in part by his ineptitude?

He was the individual who signed these players to the contracts he had to dump.

The fact is that the Dolphins got three very productive players. No amount of rationalization will change that.

 

[speedkilz88]

There seems to be a little bit confusion on where we got some of our picks. This years 3rd from Cleveland was from a different trade.

Cowboys to Raiders. Dallas traded their fourth-round selection (#100 overall) to Oakland for their fourth-round selection (#104 overall) and seventh-round selection (#213 overall).


Cowboys to Browns. Dallas traded their fourth-round selection (#104 overall) to Cleveland for their fourth-round selection (#122 overall), and fifth-round selection (#155 overall).

Jaguars to Cowboys. Jacksonville traded its fifth-round selection (#143 overall) to Dallas for its fifth-round selection (#155 overall) and seventh-round selection (#213 overall).

So pick #100 netted them both Tashard Choice #122 overall and Orlando Scandrick #143 overall.

Cowboys to Lions. Dallas traded its third-round selection (92nd overall) to Detroit for their fourth-round selection (#111 overall) and a 2009 fourth-round selection.

Cowboys to Browns. Dallas traded their fourth-round selection (#111 overall) to Cleveland for their 2009 NFL Draft third-round selection.

Dallas' 3rd round pick #92 overall netted them Clevelands 2009 3rd round pick and Detroits 2009 4th round pick.

info from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_NFL_Draft

 

[jazzcat22]

Why is the author comparing Bennett in this trade? Didn't we pick Choice with that 4th rounder Miami gave us?

I think he meant since we replaced Fasano with Bennett for the TE position. Not necessarily we used that pick for Bennett. Wasn't Bennett a 2nd rounder?

they made a few trades with that pick, and picked up an extra pick. Choice was one, can't remember the other. didn't we also get Miami's 6th round in that trade?

 

[theebs]

There seems to be a little bit confusion on where we got some of our picks. This years 3rd from Cleveland was from a different trade.







info from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_NFL_Draft

thanks man. I was the one that said we got the three, I thought from following the media guide that the 3 came from one of the original trades with that 4!

 

[Hoofbite]

Ok... how did the Cowboys " screwed up " ?

They screwed up because they traded 2 guys for squat. They then compounded that mistake by drafting one of those guys' replacements in the 2nd round.

Oh sure, Bennett is a talented player. Thats nice and all but #2 TEs don't need to be world beaters. Dallas did just fine with Fasano as the #2. How a team can just give up on a player after his 2nd year and ship him off with another starter for a 2nd day pick is nuts. Its bad management.

That and this:

does not make ANY sense. The Cowboys got two very nice players for two players they did not want and the trade doesn't make any sense ?

Are you suggesting that Fassano and Ayodele would have contributed more to the Dallas Cowboys in 2008 than Tashard Choice and Orlando Scandrick ?

I'm not saying they would have contributed more. I am just saying that getting rid of two starters for a 2nd day pick is horrible. And who is to say that Dallas still couldn't have picked them any way? Its not like its really hard to trade into the 4th and 5th round.

It was good move for both teams. How you cannot see that is beyond any reasonable understanding, but, nevertheless it's still a good move for BOTH.

:starspin

It was a bad move for Dallas. Just looking at the trade, not the players that were picked via multiple other trades, but just looking at the trade and consequent 2nd round pick to replace one of the guys traded and it was and still is a horrible move. Two starters for a 4th rounder and then using a 2nd to fill the hold it made. Its not even close to being a smart decision.

 

[Hoofbite]

Not sure what part you don't buy.

The team actually started Fasano in some 2 TE sets early in 2007 but by the end of the year he wasn't playing much at all. He caught all of 14 passes on the season. Curtis only caught 3 passes but all 3 were for TDs. He was also regarded as the better blocker of the two guys.

Fasano weights about 10 pounds less and is an inch shorter than Curtis. The team just felt Fasano had limited upside where Curtis had a higher ceiling. The guys are virtually the same age and Curtis didn't have the Notre Dame experience in a pro style offense.

A year later it may seem crazy to suggest Curtis is better but it wasn't at the time of the trade.

The guy played the whole year with a bum shoulder and ended the season with a concussion. They cut bait with him far too early. Plain and simple.

But just to entertain the thought, lets say Dallas did think Curtis was going to take over at their #2 TE. Why go and draft a #2 TE who will never be beaten out by Curtis? So now the team not only needs an All Pro TE but a high priced backup and a very capable #3?

It just didn't and doesn't make sense.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

The guy played the whole year with a bum shoulder and ended the season with a concussion. They cut bait with him far too early. Plain and simple.

But just to entertain the thought, lets say Dallas did think Curtis was going to take over at their #2 TE. Why go and draft a #2 TE who will never be beaten out by Curtis? So now the team not only needs an All Pro TE but a high priced backup and a very capable #3?

Garrett said he couldn't get his assignments down and made too many mental errors.

And I don't get what you mean in the second paragraph. Should we not have drafted a great talent at TE just because Tony Curtis hopefully wouldn't be able to beat him out?

 

[theebs]

Garrett said he couldn't get his assignments down and made too many mental errors.

And I don't get what you mean in the second paragraph. Should we not have drafted a great talent at TE just because Tony Curtis hopefully wouldn't be able to beat him out?

I wonder what he thinks of Tony Curtis? Ouch.

 

[Hoofbite]

Garrett said he couldn't get his assignments down and made too many mental errors.

And I don't get what you mean in the second paragraph. Should we not have drafted a great talent at TE just because Tony Curtis hopefully wouldn't be able to beat him out?

Couldn't get his assignments down.

Couldn't block worth a piss.

He didn't have much problem fitting in his 1st year in Miami. All just a bunch of spinning to cover the real reason why he was moved.

And I was just asking why the need to draft a #2 TE if you have just opened that spot for another player to take. If Curtis really was coming on strong, why relegate him to the bench by spending picks and money on a #2.

The team was willing to trade Fasano because Curtis was going to beat him out. If that was the case, why not just let Curtis be the #2 TE. What all do you need from that position? With the cast around that position, what more do you need from a guy playing backup TE? Nobody can really expect a ton. Hes gonna be the 4th read on most plays. Hell, probably 5th after dump offs to the RBs.

If thats the case, why not let Curtis just man that spot? Why go out and spend a high pick on that position. Just seems a little overkill to me.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Couldn't get his assignments down.

Couldn't block worth a piss.

He didn't have much problem fitting in his 1st year in Miami. All just a bunch of spinning to cover the real reason why he was moved.

This word came out after we let him go and way before his year in Miami. So this wasn't CYA.

Could Garrett have been wrong? Sure. He's been wrong about other things.

And I was just asking why the need to draft a #2 TE if you have just opened that spot for another player to take. If Curtis really was coming on strong, why relegate him to the bench by spending picks and money on a #2.

The team was willing to trade Fasano because Curtis was going to beat him out. If that was the case, why not just let Curtis be the #2 TE. What all do you need from that position? With the cast around that position, what more do you need from a guy playing backup TE? Nobody can really expect a ton. Hes gonna be the 4th read on most plays. Hell, probably 5th after dump offs to the RBs.

If thats the case, why not let Curtis just man that spot? Why go out and spend a high pick on that position. Just seems a little overkill to me.

I don't think we did target TE. Remember how Jerry wanted to trade up for a WR?

I think we just took the BPA, and he happened to be a TE. And an incredibly talented TE at that.

Sometimes when you hear hoofbeats, they're just horses, not zebras.

 

[khiladi]

The guys biggest catch performance was the first game of the season, with 8. He never sniffed more than 3 the rest of the year. The middle of his season, from games 4 through 9, he averaged 1.5 catches per game and had only 1 TD. He was pretty much just a target in the red-zone. Hell, in the play-offs he had only one catch for 5 yards.

He was the number one tight end, and people are making it seem like he's the great Fasano. Bennett played 12 games, as the number 2 tight-end, and the guys numbers statistically are up there right with Fasano as the number one.

In the year where Dallas' offense was shining, 2007, Fasano only caught only 14 balls in 16 games for 143 yards. Bennet had 20 catches with 283 yards, in a year when Jason Garrett was sucking like crap and the offense was already figured out.

If Bennett was starting, he would leave Fasano in the dust.

 

[Hostile]

I wonder what he thinks of Tony Curtis? Ouch.

He said he loved him in "Operation Petticoat."

 

[theebs]

Garrett said he couldn't get his assignments down and made too many mental errors.

And I don't get what you mean in the second paragraph. Should we not have drafted a great talent at TE just because Tony Curtis hopefully wouldn't be able to beat him out?

He said he loved him in "Operation Petticoat."

:laugh2:

 

[Randy White]

Thomas was the second level of defense and he was woefully out of position, but you expect Ken Hamlin to be more responsible?

I expect the entire defense to be responsible, not just one player.

At the time there were no assurances. It was a gamble.

And the gamble paid off.. So what's the problem ?

Meanwhile the Dolphins did not have to gamble. They got three productive starters who were instrumental on that team making a turnaround.

So what ? Congratulations to them too. They got 3 productive players, the Cowboys got 2 draft picks who turned into 2 very productive players and ample cap space. BOTH sides got what they wanted.

Note the word "great" that I used. Then revisit this. If you think 20 tackles and a sack that actually belonged to Demarcus Ware is that, so be it.

20 more tackles, 1 sack AT 4 million dollars less. Yes, I'd consider that a " great " improvement.

No. Bargains for the cost they paid in terms of draft chocies.

Dude, the Cowboys spent a 2nd round choice on Fasanno and didn't spend ANY picks on Ayodele or Fergurson. The Dullphins spent a 4th and a 6th for all three. What is the point that you're trying to make ?

The contracts were what they were. And we made no attempt to renegotiate any of them. We simply cut bait thinking that we had better players in the fold.

And the " thinking" was absolutely, 100% accurate.

Turns out, we are now a year later with major needs at both nose tackle and inside linebacker. Strange how that turned out.

a) If you haven't been paying attention let me just inform you that we've just sent our starting nose tackle to the PRO BOWL. That starting nose tackle happens to be our best defensive lineman, who's just starting to hit his prime AND he's signed to a long term contract.

So, I'll ask you: Who told you we have a " major need at nose tackle " ?

b) We had a " need " for inside LB when Ayodole was playing in Dallas. He was replaced by a BETTER player who produced more at 1/4th the cost.

What makes you think that keeping Ayodole ( even with a restructured contract ), who didn't fill that same need then, would have filled that same need now ?

And please be honest. If we went to the playoffs and were "exposed and eliminated" I doubt you would be disparaging the accomplishment to the extent you are doing to Miami right now

Ehem.. Obviously you weren't around me last year when the Cowboys choked in the playoffs against the Giants.

I don't know about you, but as Cowboys' fan, I've been spoiled. Winning a division and losing in the playoffs is NOT enough for me. Losing a Superbowl is barely torable. Anything less than a SB is NOT satisfactory.

I couldn't care less what the other teams' standards are.

It is also a F-A-C-T that the Dolphins received three starters for what amounts to pittance.

Once again: So what ? The Cowboys got what they wanted, the Dullphins got what they wanted. Where is the problem ?

And that is different from blindly rationalizing a pair of lopsided trades that was driven in part by his ineptitude?

The only ineptitude I'm seeing is in your argument. You're complaining about a trade wher the Cowboys got two very good players for two players they didn't want.

How can anybody rationalize that position ?

The fact is that the Dolphins got three very productive players. No amount of rationalization will change that.

The fact is that, no matter how much you whine, scream, or complain, it does not change the reality that Tashard Choice and Orlando Scandrick are two very good players the Cowboys drafted as a result of trading two players they did not want in Fasano and Ayodole.

 

[Randy White]

They screwed up because they traded 2 guys for squat.

Really ? So Choice and Scandrick are " squat " ?

Humm.. I think the coaching staff and front office of the Cowboys need to be informed right away.

They then compounded that mistake by drafting one of those guys' replacements in the 2nd round.

YOu mean Bennette. Who happens to be put up better numbers in his rookie year than Fasano did in two years with the Cowboys.

As a Cowboys fan, I can only pray they keep making those types of mistakes every year.

Oh sure, Bennett is a talented player. Thats nice and all but #2 TEs don't need to be world beaters. Dallas did just fine with Fasano as the #2. How a team can just give up on a player after his 2nd year and ship him off with another starter for a 2nd day pick is nuts. Its bad management.

So let me get this straight: It's bad management to improve a position because that position does not require " a world beater " ?

Interesting philsophy.

I'm not saying they would have contributed more. I am just saying that getting rid of two starters for a 2nd day pick is horrible.

Even if that pick returned two players who become key contributors to the team ? Especially when those two starters were going to be released ?

And who is to say that Dallas still couldn't have picked them any way? Its not like its really hard to trade into the 4th and 5th round. It was a bad move for Dallas. Just looking at the trade, not the players that were picked via multiple other trades, but just looking at the trade and consequent 2nd round pick to replace one of the guys traded and it was and still is a horrible move. Two starters for a 4th rounder and then using a 2nd to fill the hold it made. Its not even close to being a smart decision

Ok, so you would have prefered a scenario where

a) the Cowboys did NOT trade Fasano and Ayodele, cutting them instead.

b) using their 3rth round draft pick, select Tashard Choice. Using their only 4th round draft pick (iirc) selected Orlando Scandrick

c) give up Cleveland's 3rd round pick in the 2009 draft, give up Detroit's 4th round pick in 2009 draft.

All because, according to you, is not smart trading two starters for a 2nd day pick.

Ummm.. Ok..

:starspin