FWST: Ray Sherman on Ogletree

[Dartball Maniac]

I really like Ogletree!! I hope to see more of him next year..

 

[WoodysGirl]

IF He runs anything like He returns kicks just put this pipe dream in the bag. He looks terrible returning kicks.

I wouldn't say he was terrible, but I would like the team to actually find somebody who can actually return kicks next year.

Felix and Ogletree were serviceable, but it would be nice to get more dynamic at that spot.

 

[dadymat]

What the hell does Ray Sherman know? He just coaches the kid. People here see the difference and they really know.[/sarcasm]

BBbbbb...but he looked good in pre season....[/sarcasm]

WG is exactly right. This is the classic "backup QB" syndrome where everyone sees a little glimpse of potential and assumes he's way better than the starter.

The kid was a very raw rookie last year -- let him grow a little bit.

Now next year, he'll have more experience and a year in the weight room, so all bets will be off. But this idea that you throw a rookie into the fire the first time he shows something in limited time is crazy.

you too are exactly right...everyone calling for RW to be cut or demoted should prepare themselves for Crayton to be his replacement not O-tree....which i wouldnt mind Crayton has proven himself more than either of them

 

[Chocolate Lab]

It is slightly different. Laufenberg made the observation about it "not being close". Jones, Romo and others have bent over backwards lauding him since day one. It is a bit different where others were more of a secret, even Austin never got this much early praise. Perhaps that was Coach Parcells' way of keeping him down, but still.

As for assuming he is better than the starter, it would be hard for him to be much more mediocre than the standard Roy Williams has set.


Then throw him into a competition and show where he ranks. Is taking a few snaps away from Roy Williams going to hurt him? Afterall, he's great. He's done it everywhere he's been, works harder than everyone else and he is coachable.


So is mimimizing the development of a talented player because the player in front of them solely because they "earned it", how I do not know.

If it was up to me, Williams would be told immediately at camp, your spot is up for grabs. Crayton and Ogletree would be allowed to challenge him and seriously as well.

Like I said earlier, Babe is very biased in favor of "his" guys he picks out early as players.

And you don't just "throw people in" to see how they do. Maybe you do on a crap team that isn't going anywhere anyway, but we weren't in that position. You make them earn it in practice first. Anyone else remember Wade saying several weeks ago that at the beginning of the year Ogletree wasn't showing anything on the scout team and they had to have a stern talk with him to remind him he couldn't coast and needed to bust his butt there just like if he were preparing for a game?

I do like Ogletree and I am disappointed in Roy. But you don't just throw rookies in there because you don't like the starter. Not at WR where miscues can become instant turnovers.

Actually, I thought we used Ogletree very well last year. He played quite a bit and in some big situations. We only gave him a couple of routes he was good at, which was smart. But he did get touches in important situations, like those bubble screens against the Eagles and IIRC the Saints.

 

[tomson75]

BBbbbb...but he looked good in pre season....[/sarcasm]



you too are exactly right...everyone calling for RW to be cut or demoted should prepare themselves for Crayton to be his replacement not O-tree....which i wouldnt mind Crayton has proven himself more than either of them

I think that's exactly what most people are calling for.

I wouldn't expect Ogletree to leapfrog Crayton, but I certainly think he's earned the right to get some more snaps.

I was simply referencing Sherman's statement about earning it. Williams has earned nothing but a seat on the bench....but that's not where he is. Is it?

 

[Doomsday101]

I seem to recall people calling BP stubborn for not putting in young players that fans wanted to see. It comes with the job, the coaches do see these guys day in and day out, this is nothing new

 

[dadymat]

I think that's exactly what most people are calling for.

I wouldn't expect Ogletree to leapfrog Crayton, but I certainly think he's earned the right to get some more snaps.

I was simply referencing Sherman's statement about earning it. Williams has earned nothing but a seat on the bench....but that's not where he is. Is it?

completely agree...but some are ready to throw Ogletree right into RWs spot

 

[dcfanatic]

It was obvious in four of the last five games of the season (Minny) that Ogletree's time on the field increased.

So why would that not continue after he has another training camp under his belt with Romo next season?

To act like there is no evidence that Ogletree is on the way up the WR ladder in Dallas isn't realistic.

And Ray Sherman isn't going to be completely honest here. He knows the deal with Roy and how Ogletree's development affects Roy not being utilized in the offense.

 

[Doomsday101]

It was obvious in four of the last five games of the season (Minny) that Ogletree's time on the field increased.

So why would that not continue after he has another training camp under his belt with Romo next season?

To act like there is no evidence that Ogletree is on the way up the WR ladder in Dallas isn't realistic.

And Ray Sherman isn't going to be completely honest here. He knows the deal with Roy and how Ogletree's development affects Roy not being utilized in the offense.

Maybe Sherman knows that by telling Ogletree he needs to put in the work and effort is a way to step up to the next level. If dallas did not like the kid he would not be on the team and he would not have seen the limited action he did see. I do think this team feels highly on Ogletree and hopefully with an off season under his belt and some hard work he can become even more of a factor.

 

[dbair1967]

With as many people as some of you sugegst should be benched or replaced, you'd think our record was 5-11 and we were blown out every week.

The idea that the coaching staff here is simply letting guys skate by and keep playing regardless of how they perform is laughable. I think Wade probably does favor veterans over rookies, but so do alot of extremely successful coaches. (Belichick, Parcells immediately come to mind)

Wade, Garrett and the rest of those guys are under ALOT of pressure to win. The idea that they'd sacrifice the chance to win and keep their jobs to support the egos of a few certain players is ridiculous.

And for those who say Roy Williams hasnt seen a reduction in PT, its obvious his PT has been reduced. Hurd and Ogletree both saw alot of snaps at WR in 2 WR sets, Crayton did too.

 

[Zaxor]

Maybe Sherman knows that by telling Ogletree he needs to put in the work and effort is a way to step up to the next level. If dallas did not like the kid he would not be on the team and he would not have seen the limited action he did see. I do think this team feels highly on Ogletree and hopefully with an off season under his belt and some hard work he can become even more of a factor.

I think you have the right of it...

 

[Alexander]

And you don't just "throw people in" to see how they do. Maybe you do on a crap team that isn't going anywhere anyway, but we weren't in that position.

Who is talking benching Roy at midseason this past year? I am talking about next season. Make him earn his spot. But you know as well as I do, that has a very small chance of happening. We'll get more nonsense that Williams is just great in practice and he will continue to be a non-factor in games. Then lo and behold it is midseason and suddenly, no-no, we can't disturb anything in the middle of the season.

Ogletree's progression this year was actually perfectly acceptable for an undrafted rookie. I have no issue with the fact he didn't start. I don't know if he's even capable. But when you have a player who is primed like he has been, then it only makes sense to allow him the chance to take the next step. Open up the job. Sink or swim.

 

[tomson75]

With as many people as some of you sugegst should be benched or replaced, you'd think our record was 5-11 and we were blown out every week.

The idea that the coaching staff here is simply letting guys skate by and keep playing regardless of how they perform is laughable. I think Wade probably does favor veterans over rookies, but so do alot of extremely successful coaches. (Belichick, Parcells immediately come to mind)

Wade, Garrett and the rest of those guys are under ALOT of pressure to win. The idea that they'd sacrifice the chance to win and keep their jobs to support the egos of a few certain players is ridiculous.

And for those who say Roy Williams hasnt seen a reduction in PT, its obvious his PT has been reduced. Hurd and Ogletree both saw alot of snaps at WR in 2 WR sets, Crayton did too.

Personally, I only think its pretty ridiculous if you don't think every starter on this team should be evaluated every year. I think there are two starters that need to be seriously evaluated above the others.

Williams and Barber.

Do you think they've earned the right to win their starting roles next year by default? Simply because they're Vets?

How about Crayton? He's a vet. Why not give him the #2? He's certainly proved more reliable than Williams.

The coaches are under pressure to win. The coaches are also often under pressure to play marquee players.....until they've proven that they aren't marquee players. I think that's the case with Williams now. It has zero to do with the ego of Williams. It's Jones' ego/wallet that must be convinced here. You yourself mentioned his reduction in playing time...well? Which one is it? Are they doing the right thing by playing the Vet? Or to be applauded for reducing his playing time?

A lot of extremely successful coaches have also been made to look like geniuses by opting for the unproven youngster....including some of the coaches you've mentioned.

We're 0-0. Time to look at these guys objectively, regardless of contract.

 

[Alexander]

Wade, Garrett and the rest of those guys are under ALOT of pressure to win. The idea that they'd sacrifice the chance to win and keep their jobs to support the egos of a few certain players is ridiculous.

It works both ways. They are less apt to take risks because they are under ALOT of pressure to win. There is a certain sense of security knowing that a player like Williams will at least not get you beat. However, he will not do enough to help making winning easier either.

And for those who say Roy Williams hasnt seen a reduction in PT, its obvious his PT has been reduced. Hurd and Ogletree both saw alot of snaps at WR in 2 WR sets, Crayton did too.

He still starts. He still gets the majority of snaps in the base offense. Hurd and Ogletree were in specific packages, noteably on clear passing downs and two minute offense. It was not like they were edging close to taking his job. It was never an issue.

To put it mildly, if it were Crayton producing at Williams' level, you would have people screaming for a first round pick to be used in April, his immediate benching etc. But because Williams has status, it is a simple and easy excuse.

 

[Doomsday101]

Personally, I only think its pretty ridiculous if you don't think every starter on this team should be evaluated every year. I think there are two starters that need to be seriously evaluated above the others.

Williams and Barber.

Do you think they've earned the right to win their starting roles next year by default? Simply because they're Vets?

How about Crayton? He's a vet. Why not give him the #2? He's certainly proved more reliable than Williams.

The coaches are under pressure to win. The coaches are also often under pressure to play marquee players.....until they've proven that they aren't marquee players. I think that's the case with Williams now. It has zero to do with the ego of Williams. It's Jones' ego/wallet that must be convinced here. You yourself mentioned his reduction in playing time...well? Which one is it? Are they doing the right thing by playing the Vet? Or to be applauded for reducing his playing time?

A lot of extremely successful coaches have also been made to look like geniuses by opting for the unproven youngster....including some of the coaches you've mentioned.

We're 0-0. Time to look at these guys objectively, regardless of contract.

No doubt Jerry wants the RW deal to work out and they will give him every oppertunity they can to try and make it work you would be a fool not too but it was also Jerry who talked about wanting to see Ogletree getting playing time

 

[tomson75]

No doubt Jerry wants the RW deal to work out and they will give him every oppertunity they can to try and make it work you would be a fool not too but it was also Jerry who talked about wanting to see Ogletree getting playing time

True.

I wonder if Jerry is often influenced by fan sentiment. If he's torn between the investment he made with Williams, and the support and intrigue in guys like Ogletree. Where would that leave guys like Crayton? odd man out, I suppose.

I doubt this is the case, or at least hope its as much of a stretch as it seems.

 

[Alexander]

No doubt Jerry wants the RW deal to work out and they will give him every oppertunity they can to try and make it work you would be a fool not too but it was also Jerry who talked about wanting to see Ogletree getting playing time

Successful teams cut their losses and make tough decisions.

Jones' streak of loyalty and ego make that very difficult. He is not one to admit a mistake and we often see these types of players hang on for years. It is even more painful when you see a price tag attached and a cost of making a tough decision like that.

I am not saying cut Williams tomorrow. But I would make him earn his job this year and if he does not improve, 2010 would be his last season as a Cowboy. Period.

 

[Doomsday101]

True.

I wonder if Jerry is often influenced by fan sentiment. If he's torn between the investment he made with Williams, and the support and intrigue in guys like Ogletree. Where would that leave guys like Crayton? odd man out, I suppose.

I doubt this is the case, or at least hope its as much of a stretch as it seems.

I don't think so. I think Jerry is influenced by the daily meeting he has with the coaches and what their take is based on real data not just opinion.

Regardless of the trade being right or wrong that ship sailed now you have a player you have made a big investment in and you better believe you are going to give him as big of a chance to succeed as possible it would be foolish not to.

Having said that I do think RW will have to start producing big if he is to remain with this team beyond next season and yes I could see his time being reduced next season if he still fails to get it going, he was already seeing snaps being taken away towards the end of this season.

 

[tomson75]

I don't think so. I think Jerry is influenced by the daily meeting he has with the coaches and what their take is based on real data not just opinion.

Regardless of the trade being right or wrong that ship sailed now you have a player you have made a big investment in and you better believe you are going to give him as big of a chance to succeed as possible it would be foolish not to.

Having said that I do think RW will have to start producing big if he is to remain with this team beyond next season and yes I could see his time being reduced next season if he still fails to get it going, he was already seeing snaps being taken away towards the end of this season.

Until that investment becomes an obvious detriment to the team....the greater investment.

Personally, I think we've reached that point. IMO, of course.

 

[Doomsday101]

Successful teams cut their losses and make tough decisions.

Jones' streak of loyalty and ego make that very difficult. He is not one to admit a mistake and we often see these types of players hang on for years. It is even more painful when you see a price tag attached and a cost of making a tough decision like that.

I am not saying cut Williams tomorrow. But I would make him earn his job this year and if he does not improve, 2010 would be his last season as a Cowboy. Period.

Yes they do and I agree this is going to be a make or break season for RW in my opinion and I have stated that in other threads. I also agree that other than Austin all the WR spots should be up for grabs. I like RW but believe me I like this team more and I don't want to continue to see him get snaps if he is not earning them at this stage.

Jerry wants to win we saw how much loyalty he showed TO, that was a 9 million dollar hit.