FWST: Ray Sherman on Ogletree

Doomsday101

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tomson75;3249759 said:
Until that investment becomes an obvious detriment to the team....the greater investment.

Personally, I think we've reached that point. IMO, of course.

As do I, I expect RW to go out and earn the job if he doesn't then I expect to see his snaps limited and then released after the year next season. I hope it does not come to that but if that is the case then so be it.
 

Alexander

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Doomsday101;3249755 said:
Regardless of the trade being right or wrong that ship sailed now you have a player you have made a big investment in and you better believe you are going to give him as big of a chance to succeed as possible it would be foolish not to.

So how long? Another year? Two?

What's the timetable on playing out a bust?

If your tire is going bare and the steel is showing, you might want to consider at least replacing it. You don't drive continuously on it until you have a blowout just because you paid $500 dollars for it.
 

Doomsday101

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Alexander;3249771 said:
So how long? Another year? Two?

What's the timetable on playing out a bust?

If your tire is going bare and the steel is showing, you might want to consider at least replacing it. You don't drive continuously on it until you have a blowout just because you paid $500 dollars for it.

I just stated that to you, I said RW in my view will be looking at a make or break season next year, if he fails next season then he should be gone. It is great comparing a tire to a football player how cleaver. RW has been with us 1.5 years yes I fully expect him to return this season and yes if he does not produce next season then I think Jerry will cut his loss and move on.
 

Apollo Creed

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Even if Otree was the bomb diggity and should take Roy's place, do you think he would really say that?
 

TheCount

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Hostile;3249464 said:
What the hell does Ray Sherman know? He just coaches the kid. People here see the difference and they really know.[/sarcasm]

lol, you hate this forum so much.
 

TheMarathonContinues

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tomson75;3249706 said:
Personally, I only think its pretty ridiculous if you don't think every starter on this team should be evaluated every year. I think there are two starters that need to be seriously evaluated above the others.

Williams and Barber.

Do you think they've earned the right to win their starting roles next year by default? Simply because they're Vets?

How about Crayton? He's a vet. Why not give him the #2? He's certainly proved more reliable than Williams.

The coaches are under pressure to win. The coaches are also often under pressure to play marquee players.....until they've proven that they aren't marquee players. I think that's the case with Williams now. It has zero to do with the ego of Williams. It's Jones' ego/wallet that must be convinced here. You yourself mentioned his reduction in playing time...well? Which one is it? Are they doing the right thing by playing the Vet? Or to be applauded for reducing his playing time?

A lot of extremely successful coaches have also been made to look like geniuses by opting for the unproven youngster....including some of the coaches you've mentioned.

We're 0-0. Time to look at these guys objectively, regardless of contract.

Crayton proved to be reliable when he back at the slot position. He did not impress being the 2nd receiver on the depth chart.
 

WV Cowboy

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WoodysGirl;3249588 said:
I wouldn't say he was terrible, but I would like the team to actually find somebody who can actually return kicks next year.

Felix and Ogletree were serviceable, but it would be nice to get more dynamic at that spot.

Allow me to take this moment to suggest Mardy Gilyard. A dynamic WR and KR.

But he may go late first or early second so he may be gone before we want to use a pick on a WR/KR.

He would strengthen our WR corp, and give us a game-breaking KR.
 

TheMarathonContinues

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WV Cowboy;3249863 said:
Allow me to take this moment to suggest Mardy Gilyard. A dynamic WR and KR.

But he may go late first or early second so he may be gone before we want to use a pick on a WR/KR.

He would strengthen our WR corp, and give us a game-breaking KR.

Be careful drafting these types though. Especially when there are stronger needs on this team than receivers. Receiving is one of our stronger assets if you go by stats last season. We could use some youth at the linemen and linebacker spot before a kick returner. I'd like to think we can attack that need in free agency.
 

WV Cowboy

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rocyaice;3249868 said:
Be careful drafting these types though. Especially when there are stronger needs on this team than receivers. Receiving is one of our stronger assets if you go by stats last season. We could use some youth at the linemen and linebacker spot before a kick returner. I'd like to think we can attack that need in free agency.

True, that's why this was in my post.

"But he may go late first or early second so he may be gone before we want to use a pick on a WR/KR."
 

TheMarathonContinues

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WV Cowboy;3249874 said:
True, that's why this was in my post.

"But he may go late first or early second so he may be gone before we want to use a pick on a WR/KR."

Yea I know. I was sort of agreeing with you without saying I agree. :D
 

Undisputed

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Hoofbite;3249512 said:
I guess the "earning the right to play" idea only applies to players who don't have a starting spot.

Seems to me, if you are a starter in Dallas your job is pretty safe unless your name is Crayton. Well I suppose McBriar was scapegoated out of holding FGs but that was pretty stupid to start with.

Doug Free couldn't earn enough to continue starting over a gimped Colombo.

I wonder if Choice could ever do anything to earn the right to play more. Or I wonder if Barber could ever do anything that would make him play less? Same with Roy.

You touched on one of my problems with this coaching staff. I don't trust them to make the "tough" decisions that ultimately lead us to becoming a better football team.

Why did it take an injury for us to find out that Miles Austin is one of the best Wide Receivers in football? Why did it take a banged up Barber for Felix to hit 100 yards rushing?

Seems like our coaches are either incompetent when it comes to evaluating talent, or spineless when it comes to making the tough decisions to aid this team. Either scenario unfortunately leaves us with a team that is only 80% as good as it could be. And in all likelyhood, it is probably that last 20% that we are going to need to improve on a mediocre scoring offense, and propel this team deeper in the playoffs.
 

DaBoys4Life

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ajk23az;3249428 said:
Wide receiver

"Not yet," said position coach Ray Sherman. "He’s getting there, but the next step, if there’s going to be one, has to be earned. He hasn’t earned it yet. Don’t rush him."

You guessed it. Sherman was talking this week about Kevin Ogletree, the "next Miles Austin."

Everyone wants to see Ogletree in a prominent role for ’10. Me, too.

A sneaky suspicion is this will happen, but as Ray’s tone indicated, the goal for the off-season is to keep the kid very, very humble.

Meanwhile, Roy Williams is the X-factor. As in, he should be X-ed out.

Jerry, of course, protects Roy Uno Uno for the obvious reasons, but there is hope at Valley Ranch that Mr. Jones will now at least agree that Williams must earn playing time with production.

http://www.star-telegram.com/332/story/1913074.html

Man RW practice habits must be godly.
 

Doomsday101

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Undisputed;3249883 said:
You touched on one of my problems with this coaching staff. I don't trust them to make the "tough" decisions that ultimately lead us to becoming a better football team.

Why did it take an injury for us to find out that Miles Austin is one of the best Wide Receivers in football? Why did it take a banged up Barber for Felix to hit 100 yards rushing?

Seems like our coaches are either incompetent when it comes to evaluating talent, or spineless when it comes to making the tough decisions to aid this team. Either scenario unfortunately leaves us with a team that is only 80% as good as it could be. And in all likelyhood, it is probably that last 20% that we are going to need to improve on a mediocre scoring offense, and propel this team deeper in the playoffs.

Austin had seen action in the games before that and was not looking much different than he had in previous season. Good but nothing spectacular, the injury allowed him to start and what a start however I don't think anyone would have predicted he would play like that.

Seems to be some rewriting of history going on as if Austin was just sitting on the bench not getting to play at all
 

dbair1967

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tomson75;3249706 said:
Personally, I only think its pretty ridiculous if you don't think every starter on this team should be evaluated every year. I think there are two starters that need to be seriously evaluated above the others.

In an ideal world, every team would do this. But in the world of reality, some players get more string than others for various reasons, and sometimes its because of what they cost. You dont give them an endless supply of rope, but you do give them some.

Williams and Barber.

They both are in the 2nd yr of deals that they signed. They both cost alot of money, and both of them were proven players. Now both has struggled since signing their deal, so at some point you do have to pull back. I think we started seeing some of that "pulling back" late in the season this year with both of them. If they dont coem to camp and have solid TC's and preseasons, i'd suspect each will have their role greatly reduced, and potentially might be gone altogether. Its unlikely, but I could see it.

Do you think they've earned the right to win their starting roles next year by default? Simply because they're Vets?

No, and who ever suggested they did?

How about Crayton? He's a vet. Why not give him the #2? He's certainly proved more reliable than Williams.

He was the #2, they moved him back when Austin stepped up. The role he's in now is definitely his ideal role.

The coaches are under pressure to win. The coaches are also often under pressure to play marquee players

And I dont believe this applies here. It probably does with very poor teams struggling with attendance, especially a team with a high draft pick at a marquee positions like QB, WR or RB. But I dont think good teams worry about this that much.

.....until they've proven that they aren't marquee players. I think that's the case with Williams now. It has zero to do with the ego of Williams. It's Jones' ego/wallet that must be convinced here. You yourself mentioned his reduction in playing time...well? Which one is it? Are they doing the right thing by playing the Vet? Or to be applauded for reducing his playing time?

They reduced his PT because of his level of play, before he was a starter. What did you want them to do beyond that?

A lot of extremely successful coaches have also been made to look like geniuses by opting for the unproven youngster....including some of the coaches you've mentioned.

And the same thing will probably happen here. Especially in Barber's case, because they absolutely know what they have in Jones and Choice. The WR position isnt quite the same situation, but if RW doesnt look any different in TC and Preseason next yr, I suspect we wont see him on the field much once the season starts.

We're 0-0. Time to look at these guys objectively, regardless of contract.

I have no doubt thats exactly what will happen.
 

WV Cowboy

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Undisputed;3249883 said:
Seems like our coaches are either incompetent when it comes to evaluating talent, or spineless when it comes to making the tough decisions to aid this team. Either scenario unfortunately leaves us with a team that is only 80% as good as it could be.

It is tough enough to advance in the playoffs when your team is playing at 100%, impossible when they are playing at 80%.
 

Hostile

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TheCount;3249830 said:
lol, you hate this forum so much.
No, I just don't respect people who think they know more than the coaching staff. If they did, they'd be coaching themselves. I've done it. Not an easy job. The coaching staff don't give two hoots in hell about fans fantasy rosters or pet cats. They are trying to win. The idea that they would sabotage their own efforts over salaries of players is so ridiculous.

People learned nothing form Troy Hambrick. Whoosh! Right over heads.
 

Chocolate Lab

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Alexander;3249702 said:
Who is talking benching Roy at midseason this past year? I am talking about next season. Make him earn his spot. But you know as well as I do, that has a very small chance of happening. We'll get more nonsense that Williams is just great in practice and he will continue to be a non-factor in games. Then lo and behold it is midseason and suddenly, no-no, we can't disturb anything in the middle of the season.

Ogletree's progression this year was actually perfectly acceptable for an undrafted rookie. I have no issue with the fact he didn't start. I don't know if he's even capable. But when you have a player who is primed like he has been, then it only makes sense to allow him the chance to take the next step. Open up the job. Sink or swim.

So we don't disagree at all, except that you "know" that next year the lesser player will be kept off the field.

I remember back in the summer when Orlando Scandrick was the far superior corner to Mike Jenkins, but we all "knew" that the inferior player Jenkins would get the nod because he was a first rounder and Jerry had to save face.

That worked well.
 

Undisputed

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Doomsday101;3249888 said:
Austin had seen action in the games before that and was not looking much different than he had in previous season. Good but nothing spectacular, the injury allowed him to start and what a start however I don't think anyone would have predicted he would play like that.

Seems to be some rewriting of history going on as if Austin was just sitting on the bench not getting to play at all

Who said this?

It's basically common sense that even the best players don't produce without getting as many opportunities as possible. Why was it so hard for the coaches to realize that they needed to give Austin as many opportunities as possible, with his ability to completely change the game?

I just find it disturbing that our playoff season rides on Roy Williams getting banged up in one practice. If that doesn't happen, we don't go anywhere. Not without Miles Austin.

All this talk reminds of the classic Julius vs. Marion debate. The whole "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and "you don't know more than the coaches, so shut up!" mentality just had me rolling my eyes.

I truly believe that the number 1 thing that separates this team from Superbowl winners is that they know how to utilize and optimize their talent, while we simply do not. We're content with it sitting on the bench, "earning its dues".
 
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