Hardy contract impact on 2016 cap

[alicetooljam]

Adam is here. That is all the proof anyone needs. Or at least all that anyone should.

Fuzzer, that has nothing to do with what I said. His cap hit is entirely 2015. No matter what incentives he earns, it affects our 2015 cap. 2016's cap is free and clear of anything regarding Greg Hardy unless we re-sign him.

]For example, if we he earns $1.4 million in sack incentives, and we have $800,000 of cap room remaining -- AND if no other players have LTBE or NLTBE incentives that need to be added or subtracted -- then he would use the rest of our $800,000, and the other $600,000 would be subtracted from our 2016 cap as an adjustment.

Uhhhh...

 

[Nightman]

So what happens if they dont create more cap space?

Lets just pretend Hardy plays all games and gets 20 sacks. Lets say the team starts the season with zero dollars left against the cap. What happens after game 2? Does the team get penalized for not having cap room to cover the per game bonuses? Are they required to have the max amount he could earn in available cap space by some specified time - like the first game of the year?

Im not doubting your greatnes Stephen, Im just curious.

The short answer is that the team can't go over the salary cap. If somehow they do because of a release or a bonus they would 7 days to back under or face penalties, such as a frozen roster, fines and/or lost draft picks.

 

[BlindFaith]

In the case of a Veteran who did not play during the prior season, in the event that the NFL and the NFLPA cannot agree as to whether such performance bonus is “likely to be earned,” such disputes shall be referred to the Impartial Arbitrator. Any incentive in year one of a Rookie Contract (as described in Article 7, Section 6) shall be deemed “likely to be earned.” Any incentive within the sole control of the player (e.g., non- guaranteed reporting bonuses, offseason workout and weight bonuses) shall be deemed “likely to be earned.”
(ii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be subtracted from the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year.
(iii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses previously included in a Club’s Team Salary but not actually earned exceed performance bonuses actually earned but not previously included in Team Salary, an amount shall be added to the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year equaling the amount, if any, by which such over- age exceeds the Team’s Room under the Salary Cap at the end of a season.
(iv) Any team performance will be automatically deemed to be “Likely to be earned” if the Team met or exceeded the specified performance during the prior League Year, and will be automatically deemed to be “not likely to be earned” if the Team did not meet the specified performance during the prior League Year.
(v) Any incentive bonus that depends on team performance in any category not identified in Exhibit A hereto is prohibited.
96

The short answer is that the team can't go over the salary cap. If somehow they do because of a release or a bonus they would 7 days to back under or face penalties, such as a frozen roster, fines and/or lost draft picks.

I just dont see the language in the CBA that supports what you said. Clearly you can exceed the cap if NLTBE incentives are hit. Those hits carry over to next years cap.

And clearly Hardys contract is mostly structured as NLTBE incentives. Otherwise ALL of the per game incentives would have been applied when the contract was approved by the league.

No one has clearly presented any clause in the CBA that would prohibit what I originally posted. Clauses have been posted proving that NLTBE incentives can be carried over to the next years cap resulting in dead money.

 

[bodi]

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/dal/cowboys


3/18/2015: Signed a one-year, $11.3 million contract.

Another $1.8044 million is available through incentives based on sacks. 2015: $750,000

(+ $1.3116 million workout bonus + $9.25 million in per-game roster bonuses),

2016: Free Agent

 

[Nightman]

In the case of a Veteran who did not play during the prior season, in the event that the NFL and the NFLPA cannot agree as to whether such performance bonus is “likely to be earned,” such disputes shall be referred to the Impartial Arbitrator. Any incentive in year one of a Rookie Contract (as described in Article 7, Section 6) shall be deemed “likely to be earned.” Any incentive within the sole control of the player (e.g., non- guaranteed reporting bonuses, offseason workout and weight bonuses) shall be deemed “likely to be earned.”
(ii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be subtracted from the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year.
(iii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses previously included in a Club’s Team Salary but not actually earned exceed performance bonuses actually earned but not previously included in Team Salary, an amount shall be added to the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year equaling the amount, if any, by which such over- age exceeds the Team’s Room under the Salary Cap at the end of a season.
(iv) Any team performance will be automatically deemed to be “Likely to be earned” if the Team met or exceeded the specified performance during the prior League Year, and will be automatically deemed to be “not likely to be earned” if the Team did not meet the specified performance during the prior League Year.
(v) Any incentive bonus that depends on team performance in any category not identified in Exhibit A hereto is prohibited.
96



I just dont see the language in the CBA that supports what you said. Clearly you can exceed the cap if NLTBE incentives are hit. Those hits carry over to next years cap.

And clearly Hardys contract is mostly structured as NLTBE incentives. Otherwise ALL of the per game incentives would have been applied when the contract was approved by the league.

No one has clearly presented any clause in the CBA that would prohibit what I originally posted. Clauses have been posted proving that NLTBE incentives can be carried over to the next years cap resulting in dead money.

The NLTBE incentives hit immediately when they are reached if they are paid at the time.
(xxi) Any portion of an incentive bonus that is earned, but which had not been

deemed likely to be earned, will be deemed earned at the end of the season and not

immediately upon attainment of the required performance level, except: (1) as provided

in Subsection (xix) above in regards to per play or per game occurrences; (2) if the incentive

bonus is actually paid before the end of the season, in which case it will count when

paid; (3) if a player leaves the team's roster prior to the end of the season and the conditions

of the incentive clause are satisfied prior to leaving, in which case the entire value

of the earned bonus will count immediately; or (4) if the contract is renegotiated and the

incentive has been earned prior to such renegotiation


This is what I found about exceeding the cap

What prevents teams from going over the Salary Cap?

The short answer is that teams can’t because the league approves all contracts and would not approve a contract that would result in a team going over the Cap. If a team were to go over the Cap because of the acceleration of unaccounted-for bonus pro-rations due to the trade or release of a player, the CBA mandates that the team has 7 days to come into Cap compliance. That would mean that the team would have to find a way – likely via the restructure or release of another player – to come into Cap compliance.

There have been a couple of instances where teams were discovered to have agreed to payments to players that circumvented the Salary Cap. The Pittsburgh Steelers and San Francisco 49ers were penalized draft picks and fined for agreeing to undisclosed, non-contract payments to players.

http://russellstreetreport.com/salarycap/nfl-salary-cap-faqs/

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And what I said is exactly what the CBA says.

Yup doesn't sound like we disagree.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Just sit and listen to your professor. How you going to learn otherwise?
Oh I know you and your answer- How do you break boundaries if you don't question authority? And that's giving you too much credit, but I do credit you so take it and ride.

Now my answer is thus: How can you question your master when you know so much less than him and you do. Don't say you know more. You don't. I've read you on more than this board.
AdamJT is the authority on this subject. You are not.

He speaks CBA- you speak intelligently, but you don't speak CBA. Don't try. Go back to saying I sound old or start a threat about a player you studied.
You are so much better in that environment. Much, much better.

master? It's a message board and no one is anyone's master around here.

I cited the CBA and when it comes down to it the argument is over what the CBA says. Adam didn't say what Hos said. He didn't say what I said either but that is besides the point. I wasn't arguing with Adam.

 

[Hostile]

Uhhhh...

"...only if we don't have cap room remaining..."

It pays to read the entire quote.

 

[dallasdave]

His sack incentives -- whatever he earns, if any -- would be added to our cap at the end of the season. The cap charge for those incentives carry into 2016 only if we don't have cap room remaining (and depending on whether other players' LTBE/NLTBE incentives are added to or subtracted from our cap charges).

For example, if we he earns $1.4 million in sack incentives, and we have $800,000 of cap room remaining -- AND if no other players have LTBE or NLTBE incentives that need to be added or subtracted -- then he would use the rest of our $800,000, and the other $600,000 would be subtracted from our 2016 cap as an adjustment. Or, if we have $1.7 million remaining before him in that same situation, all $1.4 million would be used in 2015, and we could carry the other $300,000 of cap room into 2016.

This is the guy to listen to, he knows the cap.

 

[Longboysfan]

He only signed a one year incentive deal....there is no cap impact next year

Yes there is. Most of contract is worded so most of the money we pay him this year will be applied next year.

 

[xwalker]

I love Adam but the text of the CBA is king not any of us.

(ii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be subtracted from the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year.

 

[BlindFaith]

The NLTBE incentives hit immediately when they are reached if they are paid at the time.

Article 13
(xix) Any incentive bonus that is stated in terms of a per play or per game occurrence automatically will be deemed “likely to be earned” to the extent the specified performance was achieved by the player (if an individual incentive) or by the team (if a team incentive) in the previous year.
Hardy played in 2 games last year. Only 2 games this year are LTBE per his contract. This means that, since the contract has been approved, the remaining 14 games are NLTBE.

(xxi) Any portion of an incentive bonus that is earned, but which had not been deemed likely to be earned, will be deemed earned at the end of the season and not immediately upon attainment of the required performance level, except: (1) as provided in Subsection (xix) above in regards to per play or per game occurrences; (2) if the incentive bonus is actually paid before the end of the season, in which case it will count when paid; (3) if a player leaves the team’s roster prior to the end of the season and the conditions of the incentive clause are satisfied prior to leaving, in which case the entire value of the earned bonus will count immediately; or (4) if the contract is renegotiated and the incentive has been earned prior to such renegotiation.
Since Hardy only played two games last year, only those two games should be considered here. Again, the remaining 14 games should be NLTBE according to (xix). Meaning that according to (xxi) the incentive bonus will be deemed earned at the end of the season and not immediately upon attainment.

(xxiii) Any roster bonus which is deemed not “likely to be earned” based upon the player’s performance during the prior year shall immediately be included in Team Salary when earned. Preseason roster bonuses are automatically deemed “likely to be earned.”
This talks about roster bonuses. There is a Roster Bonus in his contract. $1,156,250. But that has nothing to do with the Per Game Bonus as discussed above. Now they could be invoking this clause - treating the per game bonus as roster bonus. But then why have specific language that discusses per game bonuses above?

(ii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be subtracted from the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year.
So based on (xxi) above, all of his per game bonuses should be earned at the end of the season. Based on (ii) above, any bonuses that exceed the current years Salary Cap would count (deduct) from the next years cap.

Now, it may very well be that the bonuses get paid out game after game. I just think it could be argued that it wouldn't have to be since Hardy only played 2 games last year.

 

[jterrell]

So what happens if they dont create more cap space?

Lets just pretend Hardy plays all games and gets 20 sacks. Lets say the team starts the season with zero dollars left against the cap. What happens after game 2? Does the team get penalized for not having cap room to cover the per game bonuses? Are they required to have the max amount he could earn in available cap space by some specified time - like the first game of the year?

Im not doubting your greatnes Stephen, Im just curious.

they will create the space.
the alternative would be nefarious penalties.

creating space isn't a challenge at all. they can flip 20m if they need to... not the likely 5 or 6 mil for Hardy.

the team has been very frugal and have plenty of options better than taking any penalties.

most suspect hardy is gone thru 4-6 weeks. which means there is no additional cap cost until October??
by then we will have dealt with carr and very likely dez.
worst case they can move romo's money at any time. all he needs is a pen.

 

[jterrell]

Article 13
(xix) Any incentive bonus that is stated in terms of a per play or per game occurrence automatically will be deemed “likely to be earned” to the extent the specified performance was achieved by the player (if an individual incentive) or by the team (if a team incentive) in the previous year.
Hardy played in 2 games last year. Only 2 games this year are LTBE per his contract. This means that, since the contract has been approved, the remaining 14 games are NLTBE.

(xxi) Any portion of an incentive bonus that is earned, but which had not been deemed likely to be earned, will be deemed earned at the end of the season and not immediately upon attainment of the required performance level, except: (1) as provided in Subsection (xix) above in regards to per play or per game occurrences; (2) if the incentive bonus is actually paid before the end of the season, in which case it will count when paid; (3) if a player leaves the team’s roster prior to the end of the season and the conditions of the incentive clause are satisfied prior to leaving, in which case the entire value of the earned bonus will count immediately; or (4) if the contract is renegotiated and the incentive has been earned prior to such renegotiation.
Since Hardy only played two games last year, only those two games should be considered here. Again, the remaining 14 games should be NLTBE according to (xix). Meaning that according to (xxi) the incentive bonus will be deemed earned at the end of the season and not immediately upon attainment.

(xxiii) Any roster bonus which is deemed not “likely to be earned” based upon the player’s performance during the prior year shall immediately be included in Team Salary when earned. Preseason roster bonuses are automatically deemed “likely to be earned.”
This talks about roster bonuses. There is a Roster Bonus in his contract. $1,156,250. But that has nothing to do with the Per Game Bonus as discussed above. Now they could be invoking this clause - treating the per game bonus as roster bonus. But then why have specific language that discusses per game bonuses above?

(ii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be subtracted from the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year.
So based on (xxi) above, all of his per game bonuses should be earned at the end of the season. Based on (ii) above, any bonuses that exceed the current years Salary Cap would count (deduct) from the next years cap.

Now, it may very well be that the bonuses get paid out game after game. I just think it could be argued that it wouldn't have to be since Hardy only played 2 games last year.

bro, you answered this yourself... good data.

(xix) above in regards to per play or per game occurrences; (2) if the incentive bonus is actually paid before the end of the season, in which case it will count when paid

Hardy is getting his checks PER WEEK thus they count now.
Dallas could of course change the contract and make them payable at the end of the league season if they so choose and Hardy agrees.
But again it is clear Dallas CHOSE this model and method to handle any payments this year.

They go into next year with a really clean cap. --pending Carr.

 

[Sandyf]

Overthecap.com already covered this. The salary impact has to be paid weekly if he is on the field. The sack impact is the only one that would be carried over into 2016. Again, I am not a cap expert but there are two or three sites that pretty much do it quite well including the NFLPA site and all that I read is the carry over if Dallas chooses so is the sack bonus.

 

[Longboysfan]

Question to yourself.... Do you think Steven Jones investigated this so they could push the contract into next years CAP or take the hit all this year....
I think they wrote it specifically to take the majority of the CAP hit next year.
BilndFaith kind of covered it.

 

[BlindFaith]

Question to yourself.... Do you think Steven Jones investigated this so they could push the contract into next years CAP or take the hit all this year....
I think they wrote it specifically to take the majority of the CAP hit next year.
BilndFaith kind of covered it.

That's kinda what I'm thinking too. There's a bit of a loophole here since he only played 2 games last year. The language of the CBA refers to comparing what a player did LAST year in order to identify the LTBE or NLTBE incentives. Clearly NLTBE incentives can be carried over to the next year. It's stated in the CBA.

They could very well be positioning themselves to push 6-9 mill to next year's cap. This gives them a ton more flexibility this year. Sure, it's more dead money next year, but next year Romos cap hit is a lot less as well.

Normally you would never see a player sign this kind of contract. Normally a player who has missed a year, due to injury let's say, still has bargaining power in that they could still possibly play at a high level.

 

[jterrell]

Question to yourself.... Do you think Steven Jones investigated this so they could push the contract into next years CAP or take the hit all this year....
I think they wrote it specifically to take the majority of the CAP hit next year.
BilndFaith kind of covered it.

no offense but you think wrong.
they CLEARLY designed it to be taken this year but not count NOW.
this isn't hard to see.

 

[BlindFaith]

bro, you answered this yourself... good data.

(xix) above in regards to per play or per game occurrences; (2) if the incentive bonus is actually paid before the end of the season, in which case it will count when paid

Hardy is getting his checks PER WEEK thus they count now.
Dallas could of course change the contract and make them payable at the end of the league season if they so choose and Hardy agrees.
But again it is clear Dallas CHOSE this model and method to handle any payments this year.

They go into next year with a really clean cap. --pending Carr.

Huh?

1. He doesn't have to get his checks per week because they are NLTBE.
2. At the end of the year, when they do pay his bonus, any bonus money over the cap that is paid out can be carried over to the next year.

So yeah, according to the CBA 6-8 million could be moved to next year. I've yet to see anyone provide evidence of the contrary.

 

[jterrell]

That's kinda what I'm thinking too. There's a bit of a loophole here since he only played 2 games last year. The language of the CBA refers to comparing what a player did LAST year in order to identify the LTBE or NLTBE incentives. Clearly NLTBE incentives can be carried over to the next year. It's stated in the CBA.

They could very well be positioning themselves to push 6-9 mill to next year's cap. This gives them a ton more flexibility this year. Sure, it's more dead money next year, but next year Romos cap hit is a lot less as well.

Normally you would never see a player sign this kind of contract. Normally a player who has missed a year, due to injury let's say, still has bargaining power in that they could still possibly play at a high level.

The issue is they can't do as you suggest.

NLTBE and LTBE only matter as UP FRONT cap charges.
Cap charges ALWAYS apply when paid if paid before the end of a season.
Again, you quoted it most perfectly and in as concise language as any legal doc could spell it out.

BECAUSE the weekly checks are paid prior to the end of the season... whereas the sack bonus is cumulative and not ONLY the possible 1-1.8m can be carried forward.

You can not hand someone per week or per play bonuses and bill them in a future season.