Hardy contract impact on 2016 cap

[BlindFaith]

The difference in those two clauses is that (xxiii) mentions "Roster Bonus" and (xxi) mentions "Incentive Bonus". As already stated, Exhibit B calls a Roster bonus and Incentive bonus. Not sure why they are now considering it different in regards to when the money gets paid. But again, for my argument, it doesn't matter. Let's all agree that Hardy's Per Game bonus is a Roster bonus and Roster bonuses are paid when earned. Agreed?

The main point of my argument is thus. The Per Game bonus is still NLTBE. Agreed? And this section defines how to handle a cap overage based on NLTBE payments during the year.
(ii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be subtracted from the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year.

Example:
First game of the year we have $3 million in cap space. I have read nothing that says we have to have the roughly $8mill additional available to potentially cover the remaining Per Game bonuses that he may or may not get. ie, NLTBE. So if it's not required to have that cap space available, are we thinking that they have to make it available when its time to pay up?

Assuming Hardy gets no suspension - to keep things simple - after game 5 we would have used up the remaining $3 mill to cover his Per Game bonuses. Pretending that's the rule even though it doesn't mention it working that way anywhere in the CBA. So now what? What happens after game 6. Do we have to restructure someone? Cut someone? How do we get the additional cap space?

I don't read it that way. I read it like this. Based on (ii), if at the end of the year we have paid out the $8mill, $3mill gets applied to the current cap - that's the remaining space we had. The additional $5mill carries forward in the form of a cap hit in 2016.

Those that don't agree, please show me where in the CBA it says:
1. You have to either have cap space available at the start of the season to cover for, or you have to make cap space available when payments are due for, roster bonuses/NLTBE incentives.
2. Roster bonuses, even though considered as an Incentive, have differing cap implecations than those detailed in (ii). Specifically that NLTBE roster bonuses paid out exceeding the current cap allowance can not be carried over to the next year.
3. What the penalty is for not having enough cap space in the current year to cover said roster bonuses in the current year

 

[AdamJT13]

The difference in those two clauses is that (xxiii) mentions "Roster Bonus" and (xxi) mentions "Incentive Bonus". As already stated, Exhibit B calls a Roster bonus and Incentive bonus. Not sure why they are now considering it different in regards to when the money gets paid. But again, for my argument, it doesn't matter. Let's all agree that Hardy's Per Game bonus is a Roster bonus and Roster bonuses are paid when earned. Agreed?

The main point of my argument is thus. The Per Game bonus is still NLTBE. Agreed? And this section defines how to handle a cap overage based on NLTBE payments during the year.
(ii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be subtracted from the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year.

Example:
First game of the year we have $3 million in cap space. I have read nothing that says we have to have the roughly $8mill additional available to potentially cover the remaining Per Game bonuses that he may or may not get. ie, NLTBE. So if it's not required to have that cap space available, are we thinking that they have to make it available when its time to pay up?

Assuming Hardy gets no suspension - to keep things simple - after game 5 we would have used up the remaining $3 mill to cover his Per Game bonuses. Pretending that's the rule even though it doesn't mention it working that way anywhere in the CBA. So now what? What happens after game 6. Do we have to restructure someone? Cut someone? How do we get the additional cap space?

I don't read it that way. I read it like this. Based on (ii), if at the end of the year we have paid out the $8mill, $3mill gets applied to the current cap - that's the remaining space we had. The additional $5mill carries forward in the form of a cap hit in 2016.

Those that don't agree, please show me where in the CBA it says:
1. You have to either have cap space available at the start of the season to cover for, or you have to make cap space available when payments are due for, roster bonuses/NLTBE incentives.
2. Roster bonuses, even though considered as an Incentive, have differing cap implecations than those detailed in (ii). Specifically that NLTBE roster bonuses paid out exceeding the current cap allowance can not be carried over to the next year.
3. What the penalty is for not having enough cap space in the current year to cover said roster bonuses in the current year

The simple answer is that no team would ever want to leave itself with no cap room before the final week of the season. You'd run out of players when guys start getting hurt.

 

[BlindFaith]

The simple answer is that no team would ever want to leave itself with no cap room before the final week of the season. You'd run out of players when guys start getting hurt.

My example accounts for that $3mill. But if the bonuses paid out exceed that, then what? My interpretation is that it gets carried over to the next year.

 

[AdamJT13]

My example accounts for that $3mill. But if the bonuses paid out exceed that, then what? My interpretation is that it gets carried over to the next year.

The weekly roster bonuses get paid weekly and get added to the cap each week. If we run out of cap room before the end of the season and don't have room for his weekly bonuses, we also wouldn't be able to sign anyone off the street to cover for injuries. The team wouldn't let that happen -- they'd make room for his roster bonuses and more.

 

[T-RO]

Cap apologists are so twitchy to defend Jerry's every move. It gets a bit desperate sometimes.

The one certainty is that if Hardy has a big year...he's going to make a lot of money against the cap. Either way the Cowboys will borrow cap to cover it. They'll either need to pay Hardy's cap hit now...and will reshuffle some other salary...or they'll be able to defer Hardy's incentive hit next season.

This was no brilliant budget signing.

 

[Nightman]

Cap apologists are so twitchy to defend Jerry's every move. It gets a bit desperate sometimes.

The one certainty is that if Hardy has a big year...he's going to make a lot of money against the cap. Either way the Cowboys will borrow cap to cover it. They'll either need to pay Hardy's cap hit now...and will reshuffle some other salary...or they'll be able to defer Hardy's incentive hit next season.

This was no brilliant budget signing.

All it did was protect Dallas against a long suspension or Hardy remaining on the commissioner's list. They are paying retail if Hardy performs as expected.

 

[Nightman]

The difference in those two clauses is that (xxiii) mentions "Roster Bonus" and (xxi) mentions "Incentive Bonus". As already stated, Exhibit B calls a Roster bonus and Incentive bonus. Not sure why they are now considering it different in regards to when the money gets paid. But again, for my argument, it doesn't matter. Let's all agree that Hardy's Per Game bonus is a Roster bonus and Roster bonuses are paid when earned. Agreed?

The main point of my argument is thus. The Per Game bonus is still NLTBE. Agreed? And this section defines how to handle a cap overage based on NLTBE payments during the year.
(ii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be subtracted from the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year.

Example:
First game of the year we have $3 million in cap space. I have read nothing that says we have to have the roughly $8mill additional available to potentially cover the remaining Per Game bonuses that he may or may not get. ie, NLTBE. So if it's not required to have that cap space available, are we thinking that they have to make it available when its time to pay up?

Assuming Hardy gets no suspension - to keep things simple - after game 5 we would have used up the remaining $3 mill to cover his Per Game bonuses. Pretending that's the rule even though it doesn't mention it working that way anywhere in the CBA. So now what? What happens after game 6. Do we have to restructure someone? Cut someone? How do we get the additional cap space?

I don't read it that way. I read it like this. Based on (ii), if at the end of the year we have paid out the $8mill, $3mill gets applied to the current cap - that's the remaining space we had. The additional $5mill carries forward in the form of a cap hit in 2016.

Those that don't agree, please show me where in the CBA it says:
1. You have to either have cap space available at the start of the season to cover for, or you have to make cap space available when payments are due for, roster bonuses/NLTBE incentives.
2. Roster bonuses, even though considered as an Incentive, have differing cap implecations than those detailed in (ii). Specifically that NLTBE roster bonuses paid out exceeding the current cap allowance can not be carried over to the next year.
3. What the penalty is for not having enough cap space in the current year to cover said roster bonuses in the current year

I don't think the CBA lists specific penalties for going over the cap because teams can't go over the cap.

If they do somehow go over because of an accelerated bonuses or a trade, they have to immediately get back under or face a frozen roster, plus the threat of fines and other penalties. As convoluted as the CBA is they cannot account for every contingency with a rule.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Cap apologists are so twitchy to defend Jerry's every move. It gets a bit desperate sometimes.

The one certainty is that if Hardy has a big year...he's going to make a lot of money against the cap. Either way the Cowboys will borrow cap to cover it. They'll either need to pay Hardy's cap hit now...and will reshuffle some other salary...or they'll be able to defer Hardy's incentive hit next season.

This was no brilliant budget signing.

It's really easy to spot poor thinking when you see words like 'apologist' and then an attempt to couch things in an emotional narrative. You being emotional about the issue speaks very clearly.

 

[T-RO]

It's really easy to spot poor thinking when you see words like 'apologist' and then an attempt to couch things in an emotional narrative. You being emotional about the issue speaks very clearly.

Is that the best you got? Seriously?

 

[speedkilz88]

Cap apologists are so twitchy to defend Jerry's every move. It gets a bit desperate sometimes.

The one certainty is that if Hardy has a big year...he's going to make a lot of money against the cap. Either way the Cowboys will borrow cap to cover it. They'll either need to pay Hardy's cap hit now...and will reshuffle some other salary...or they'll be able to defer Hardy's incentive hit next season.

This was no brilliant budget signing.

 

[T-RO]

Wow, am I ever glad you are up there on that salary cap wall...ready to live and die for my Cowboy freedoms. The boldness and bravery of spending 10 million for a molester is truly a matter of pride--something to wrap the flag around.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Is that the best you got? Seriously?

Is there where you say that I am desperate? I cannot do anything so blah blah blah.

You generalized people then spoke against their emotion. You then basically said Hardy would count against the cap but in a condescending manner as if it was lost on anyone. It seems important to you that people don't like this deal. That's all I get out of reading your post.

Perhaps you should consider what you bring to the table.

 

[BlindFaith]

The weekly roster bonuses get paid weekly and get added to the cap each week. If we run out of cap room before the end of the season and don't have room for his weekly bonuses, we also wouldn't be able to sign anyone off the street to cover for injuries. The team wouldn't let that happen -- they'd make room for his roster bonuses and more.

Good, now we are getting into application of the rules. I still haven't heard you disagree that they COULD push all of his bonus money to next year. It's just not practical. Or is it?

I do have a question. Can a contract be restructured after the season has started? Could we restructure Romo say week 10? I have a feeling that the answer is no since his base salary is guaranteed at the start of the year. But not sure.

Lets say you can't.

That means we need some amount of money prior to the season starting. Options are Dez, Romo and Carr. Likely candidate is Carr as a June 1st cut.

That gives us 8mill to start the season. Just enough to also cover Hardy. But realistically, we could still carry over Hardy's bonus money, or at least some of it.

Lets' say Hardy gets a 4 game suspension. He starts playing week 7. So that leaves $5,781,250 left in Per Game bonus money that would be paid out on a weekly basis.

Now, it could be very possible that by week 7 that we've had injuries. We've signed new guys to replace them. Let's say we spend $3mill to do so. At this point we have $5mill left against the cap. A little less than what we could potentially pay out to Hardy. $781,250 to be exact.

Every injury signing, practice squad signing etc, from that point on would come out of the remaining $5mill. Also, dollar for dollar, what ever we spend would then push that same amount of Hardy's per game bonus to next year.

I think we agree on that? Correct?

So in the end, Hardy's impact on 2016 will be, more than likely, not just whatever sack bonus he gets, but also what ever money we are short on the cap for his per game bonuses.

And it gets interesting on how to go about getting that cap space. You could conceivably keep Carr at his current contract and restructure Romo, but only free up say $4mill. Especially if Hardy gets a 4 game suspension. That $4mill should cover you for injuries up until Hardy starts playing week 7. You'd be rolling the dice a little towards the end of the year since you'd be out of money to sign anyone in case of injury. But we could keep Carr and only slightly restructure Romo.

Another scenario is that Carr finally decides to take a pay cut. Let's say from $8mill to $4mill. That gives us the same scenario as above without having to restructure Romo.

Dez signing a long term contract could probably free up $7-8mill. That's probably the ideal situation. But then do you still keep Carr? Dez not signing a long term deal is really hurting us at the moment. If we could free up that space, then we could designate Carr as a June 1st cut and go out and hopefully sign his replacement now. That would gives us more flexibility in the draft.

Without Dez's long term contract, we are basically forced to cut Carr and use his money for the season. Unless we do something with Romo. And if we are going that route, then we should do it now. Restructure Romo to save us $4-5 mill this year. Designate Carr as a June1st cut. And find his replacement now. Again, we'd be rolling the dice a little in regards to cap space at the end of the year, but it may be worth it.

If Hardy gets no suspension, then I think we'll be forced to cut Carr and use all his money towards the cap. Unless we want to break the bank on Romo and use Carrs money to sign his replacement.

Many interesting twists to come in how they deal with this I think.

 

[xwalker]

Cap apologists are so twitchy to defend Jerry's every move. It gets a bit desperate sometimes.

The one certainty is that if Hardy has a big year...he's going to make a lot of money against the cap. Either way the Cowboys will borrow cap to cover it. They'll either need to pay Hardy's cap hit now...and will reshuffle some other salary...or they'll be able to defer Hardy's incentive hit next season.

This was no brilliant budget signing.

They got a top 3 DE in the entire NFL for a zero risk contract that at it's max is about 2M less than the Franchise Tag for DEs.

I don't see how that is a bad deal from any viewpoint.

 

[jterrell]

Cap apologists are so twitchy to defend Jerry's every move. It gets a bit desperate sometimes.

The one certainty is that if Hardy has a big year...he's going to make a lot of money against the cap. Either way the Cowboys will borrow cap to cover it. They'll either need to pay Hardy's cap hit now...and will reshuffle some other salary...or they'll be able to defer Hardy's incentive hit next season.

This was no brilliant budget signing.

no offense but that borders on clinically stupid.

name one other contract in the NFL where a guy has zero guarantee yet is viewed as a pro bowl talent upon signing?

 

[jterrell]

Good, now we are getting into application of the rules. I still haven't heard you disagree that they COULD push all of his bonus money to next year. It's just not practical. Or is it?

I do have a question. Can a contract be restructured after the season has started? Could we restructure Romo say week 10? I have a feeling that the answer is no since his base salary is guaranteed at the start of the year. But not sure.

Lets say you can't.

That means we need some amount of money prior to the season starting. Options are Dez, Romo and Carr. Likely candidate is Carr as a June 1st cut.

That gives us 8mill to start the season. Just enough to also cover Hardy. But realistically, we could still carry over Hardy's bonus money, or at least some of it.

Lets' say Hardy gets a 4 game suspension. He starts playing week 7. So that leaves $5,781,250 left in Per Game bonus money that would be paid out on a weekly basis.

Now, it could be very possible that by week 7 that we've had injuries. We've signed new guys to replace them. Let's say we spend $3mill to do so. At this point we have $5mill left against the cap. A little less than what we could potentially pay out to Hardy. $781,250 to be exact.

Every injury signing, practice squad signing etc, from that point on would come out of the remaining $5mill. Also, dollar for dollar, what ever we spend would then push that same amount of Hardy's per game bonus to next year.

I think we agree on that? Correct?

So in the end, Hardy's impact on 2016 will be, more than likely, not just whatever sack bonus he gets, but also what ever money we are short on the cap for his per game bonuses.

And it gets interesting on how to go about getting that cap space. You could conceivably keep Carr at his current contract and restructure Romo, but only free up say $4mill. Especially if Hardy gets a 4 game suspension. That $4mill should cover you for injuries up until Hardy starts playing week 7. You'd be rolling the dice a little towards the end of the year since you'd be out of money to sign anyone in case of injury. But we could keep Carr and only slightly restructure Romo.

Another scenario is that Carr finally decides to take a pay cut. Let's say from $8mill to $4mill. That gives us the same scenario as above without having to restructure Romo.

Dez signing a long term contract could probably free up $7-8mill. That's probably the ideal situation. But then do you still keep Carr? Dez not signing a long term deal is really hurting us at the moment. If we could free up that space, then we could designate Carr as a June 1st cut and go out and hopefully sign his replacement now. That would gives us more flexibility in the draft.

Without Dez's long term contract, we are basically forced to cut Carr and use his money for the season. Unless we do something with Romo. And if we are going that route, then we should do it now. Restructure Romo to save us $4-5 mill this year. Designate Carr as a June1st cut. And find his replacement now. Again, we'd be rolling the dice a little in regards to cap space at the end of the year, but it may be worth it.

If Hardy gets no suspension, then I think we'll be forced to cut Carr and use all his money towards the cap. Unless we want to break the bank on Romo and use Carrs money to sign his replacement.

Many interesting twists to come in how they deal with this I think.

none of that is really true because they can not pay for his weekly incentives in a future season.
they can not borrow form next year in that manner.
the cba language is real clear.

they can borrow by pushing off money due to romo or someone else but they can not with hardy.
this is cut and dried.

 

[jterrell]

no offense but that borders on clinically stupid.

name one other contract in the NFL where a guy has zero guarantee yet is viewed as a pro bowl talent upon signing?

fwiw and why this drives me crazy.

dallas paid spencer a franchise going rate... and ate 9m when he was injured.
this isn't just a make good contract.. it is a week by week contract that only pays additional incentives for elite sack totals.

dallas paid ware a going rate and ate about 10m for him to play elsewhere.

this isn't going rate. this is a miracle.

 

[Longboysfan]

I agree with this. I'm just saying that from what I've read of the CBA pertaining to this, that it is even more genius that the team could push the cap hit for everything over the current cap hit of $3.2mill to NEXT year.

Why is that important? They wouldn't have to do anything to create more cap room this year. They could keep Dez franchised, they wouldn't need to redo Romo, hell, they could even keep Carr. They will probably have to come up with a couple mill more just to cover the draft. And they would need to have a little on hand in case of an emergency. Cutting Dunbar saves us 1.5mill. McClain saves us 900,000. There are others in there that we could and probably will cut that will get us close to what we need.

Again, I'm not saying that this is how it works. I'm no agent or GM. I'm just saying that from the way the CBA reads in regards to the cap, it COULD work this way.

I agree. So does Steven Jones.
If in doubt ask Adam.

 

[BlindFaith]

none of that is really true because they can not pay for his weekly incentives in a future season.
they can not borrow form next year in that manner.
the cba language is real clear.

Yes, it is real clear that they can. Even Adam didn't disagree, he simply said it wasn't realistic that they would get into a situation where they had no cap space left which would result in the overages being pushed to next year. I proposed scenarios where we could. We'll see what happens.

 

[xwalker]

I agree with this. I'm just saying that from what I've read of the CBA pertaining to this, that it is even more genius that the team could push the cap hit for everything over the current cap hit of $3.2mill to NEXT year.

Why is that important? They wouldn't have to do anything to create more cap room this year. They could keep Dez franchised, they wouldn't need to redo Romo, hell, they could even keep Carr. They will probably have to come up with a couple mill more just to cover the draft. And they would need to have a little on hand in case of an emergency. Cutting Dunbar saves us 1.5mill. McClain saves us 900,000. There are others in there that we could and probably will cut that will get us close to what we need.

Again, I'm not saying that this is how it works. I'm no agent or GM. I'm just saying that from the way the CBA reads in regards to the cap, it COULD work this way.

It is genius just in the fact that the cap space is not needed until later in the 2015 season. It's much easier to make decisions then than now. They will know all of the surrounding issues then that are question marks now (Dez contract or Franchise, Carr contract status, etc..).

There is no great advantage to not restructuring Romo's contract. It doesn't really matter how you push money forward, only how much you push forward. Yes, they "could" try to push money forward by being up against the cap and having Hardy's incentives forward into next season, but that make's it difficult to operate with zero cap space in the 2nd half of the season. If they work something out with Dez or Carr, they'll have the space, but if they need to restructure Romo it's not that big of a deal. It's just his 2015 base salary that is being guaranteed. He is getting that money regardless.

The Cowboys are a long way from having any real cap problems. It makes everything easier because Romo's base is low for 2016. His base has averaged around 17M before restructures, but it is down to 8.5M for 2016.