Hardy contract impact on 2016 cap

[jterrell]

Huh?

1. He doesn't have to get his checks per week because they are NLTBE.
2. At the end of the year, when they do pay his bonus, any bonus money over the cap that is paid out can be carried over to the next year.

So yeah, according to the CBA 6-8 million could be moved to next year. I've yet to see anyone provide evidence of the contrary.

He gets them IF he plays. and IF he plays it counts WHEN he receives the check.
In this case that is weekly.

It doesn't count UP FRONT (i.e. right this second because it is NLTBE) but it will count the same week it gets paid.

if the incentive bonus is actually paid before the end of the season, in which case it will count when paid

 

[jterrell]

Let me put this another way.

If Hardy got 25k per sack with no escalator for reaching various totals and was handed his bonuses as part of the next week's game check then his sacks would be termed NTBLE based upon last year but we'd eat 25k for each sack beyond 1 in 2015.

Why did Dallas do this?

The standard flat yearly total would have become guaranteed at some point early in the year and Dallas would have had to eat 7-10m in cap costs right now.

This way they get Hardy under contract, owe zero guarantees and have time to make all their cap moves at a comfortable pace.

It is genius. PERIOD.

 

[BlindFaith]

BECAUSE the weekly checks are paid prior to the end of the season... whereas the sack bonus is cumulative and not ONLY the possible 1-1.8m can be carried forward.

You can not hand someone per week or per play bonuses and bill them in a future season.

It doesn't say that.
(xxi) Any portion of an incentive bonus that is earned, but which had not been deemed likely to be earned, will be deemed earned at the end of the season and not immediately upon attainment of the required performance level

It does say this though:
At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be subtracted from the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year.

So yes, they can carry over to the next year. No, his game bonuses should NOT be LTBE because he only played 2 games last year. Hence, ANY bonus above the $3,217,850 would be applied to the remaining cap for that year. Any amount that was paid out and exceeded the current cap for the year would be carried over to the next year as a cap hit for that next year.

This is what the CBA says.

 

[Eric_Boyer]

(xxiii) Any roster bonus which is deemed not “likely to be earned” based upon the player’s performance during the prior year shall immediately be included in Team Salary when earned. Preseason roster bonuses are automatically deemed “likely to be earned.”
This talks about roster bonuses. There is a Roster Bonus in his contract. $1,156,250. But that has nothing to do with the Per Game Bonus as discussed above. Now they could be invoking this clause - treating the per game bonus as roster bonus. But then why have specific language that discusses per game bonuses above?

a per game bonus is a roster bonus. You have the 53 man roster, and you have a game day roster.

 

[BlindFaith]

Let me put this another way.

If Hardy got 25k per sack with no escalator for reaching various totals and was handed his bonuses as part of the next week's game check then his sacks would be termed NTBLE based upon last year but we'd eat 25k for each sack beyond 1 in 2015.

Why did Dallas do this?

The standard flat yearly total would have become guaranteed at some point early in the year and Dallas would have had to eat 7-10m in cap costs right now.

This way they get Hardy under contract, owe zero guarantees and have time to make all their cap moves at a comfortable pace.

It is genius. PERIOD.

I agree with this. I'm just saying that from what I've read of the CBA pertaining to this, that it is even more genius that the team could push the cap hit for everything over the current cap hit of $3.2mill to NEXT year.

Why is that important? They wouldn't have to do anything to create more cap room this year. They could keep Dez franchised, they wouldn't need to redo Romo, hell, they could even keep Carr. They will probably have to come up with a couple mill more just to cover the draft. And they would need to have a little on hand in case of an emergency. Cutting Dunbar saves us 1.5mill. McClain saves us 900,000. There are others in there that we could and probably will cut that will get us close to what we need.

Again, I'm not saying that this is how it works. I'm no agent or GM. I'm just saying that from the way the CBA reads in regards to the cap, it COULD work this way.

 

[BlindFaith]

a per game bonus is a roster bonus. You have the 53 man roster, and you have a game day roster.

It is not a roster bonus. There is specific language concerning the differences between both.

And there is a roster bonus already included in his contract - $1,156,250. Why would, as you suggest, his per game "Roster Bonus" not be included in the roster bonus he will already get and has already been defined?

 

[Eric_Boyer]

It is not a roster bonus. There is specific language concerning the differences between both.

no, there is a difference between performance and roster bonus, no difference was spelled out between week one roster bonus and a game day roster bonus.

If you feel there is a difference, highlight, it, because I must of missed it.

And there is a roster bonus already included in his contract - $1,156,250. Why would, as you suggest, his per game "Roster Bonus" not be included in the roster bonus he will already get and has already been defined?

the game day roster bonus is earned in 15 intervals, not all at one, why would they lump them together when they are earned at different points?

 

[jterrell]

It doesn't say that.
(xxi) Any portion of an incentive bonus that is earned, but which had not been deemed likely to be earned, will be deemed earned at the end of the season and not immediately upon attainment of the required performance level

It does say this though:
At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be subtracted from the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year.

So yes, they can carry over to the next year. No, his game bonuses should NOT be LTBE because he only played 2 games last year. Hence, ANY bonus above the $3,217,850 would be applied to the remaining cap for that year. Any amount that was paid out and exceeded the current cap for the year would be carried over to the next year as a cap hit for that next year.

This is what the CBA says.

bro, i quoted EXACTLY what you wrote and per game and per play incentives ARE handled differently.
that specifically states they are exceptions to the rule in (xxi).

(xxi) Any portion of an incentive bonus that is earned, but which had not been deemed likely to be earned, will be deemed earned at the end of the season and not immediately upon attainment of the required performance level, except: (1) as provided in Subsection (xix) above in regards to per play or per game occurrences; (2) if the incentive bonus is actually paid before the end of the season, in which case it will count when paid;

 

[BlindFaith]

no, there is a difference between performance and roster bonus, no difference was spelled out between week one roster bonus and a game day roster bonus.

If you feel there is a difference, highlight, it, because I must of missed it.

the game day roster bonus is earned in 15 intervals, not all at one, why would they lump them together when they are earned at different points?

Article 13
(xix) Any incentive bonus that is stated in terms of a per play or per game occurrence automatically will be deemed “likely to be earned” to the extent the specified performance was achieved by the player (if an individual incentive) or by the team (if a team incentive) in the previous year.

(xxi) Any portion of an incentive bonus that is earned, but which had not been deemed likely to be earned, will be deemed earned at the end of the season and not immediately upon attainment of the required performance level,

(xxiii) Any roster bonus which is deemed not “likely to be earned” based upon the player’s performance during the prior year shall immediately be included in Team Salary when earned. Preseason roster bonuses are automatically deemed “likely to be earned.”

I think the confusion is between the definition of Incentives.

In the CBA, Roster bonuses are considered incentives.
(EXHIBIT B)
INDIVIDUAL INCENTIVES
KICKOFF RETURNS
Total yards
Average (20 returns)
Touchdowns
PUNTING
Gross average (40 punts)
Net average (40 punts)
Inside 20-yard line
PLACE KICKING
Total points
Field goals
Field goal percentage (16 attempts)
Field goal percentage
0-19 yards (4 attempts)
Field goal percentage
20-29 yards (4 attempts)
Field goal percentage
30-39 yards (4 attempts)
Field goal percentage
40-49 yards (4 attempts)
Field goal percentage
50 yards or longer (3 attempts)
OTHERS
Roster bonuses
Reporting bonuses
Playtime bonuses
(excluding special teams)
Special teams playtime

Then in xxiii they treat roster bonuses differently than incentives. xxiii does say that the bonus is paid when it is earned. But for Hardys contract, they are still considered NLTBE. In which case, if they pay out more than what they have available in cap room, any overage is applied to next year.

So, what I said in the beginning still should apply. They just have to pay out the roster bonuses as they go. No where does it say that they have to have the cap room to do so. It DOES say that if they don't have the cap room to do so that they can carry over the overage to the next year.

 

[Eric_Boyer]

Article 13
(xix) Any incentive bonus that is stated in terms of a per play or per game occurrence automatically will be deemed “likely to be earned” to the extent the specified performance was achieved by the player (if an individual incentive) or by the team (if a team incentive) in the previous year.

(xxi) Any portion of an incentive bonus that is earned, but which had not been deemed likely to be earned, will be deemed earned at the end of the season and not immediately upon attainment of the required performance level,

(xxiii) Any roster bonus which is deemed not “likely to be earned” based upon the player’s performance during the prior year shall immediately be included in Team Salary when earned. Preseason roster bonuses are automatically deemed “likely to be earned.”

I think the confusion is between the definition of Incentives.

In the CBA, Roster bonuses are considered incentives.
(EXHIBIT B)
INDIVIDUAL INCENTIVES
KICKOFF RETURNS
Total yards
Average (20 returns)
Touchdowns
PUNTING
Gross average (40 punts)
Net average (40 punts)
Inside 20-yard line
PLACE KICKING
Total points
Field goals
Field goal percentage (16 attempts)
Field goal percentage
0-19 yards (4 attempts)
Field goal percentage
20-29 yards (4 attempts)
Field goal percentage
30-39 yards (4 attempts)
Field goal percentage
40-49 yards (4 attempts)
Field goal percentage
50 yards or longer (3 attempts)
OTHERS
Roster bonuses
Reporting bonuses
Playtime bonuses
(excluding special teams)
Special teams playtime

Then in xxiii they treat roster bonuses differently than incentives. xxiii does say that the bonus is paid when it is earned. But for Hardys contract, they are still considered NLTBE. In which case, if they pay out more than what they have available in cap room, any overage is applied to next year.

So, what I said in the beginning still should apply. They just have to pay out the roster bonuses as they go. No where does it say that they have to have the cap room to do so. It DOES say that if they don't have the cap room to do so that they can carry over the overage to the next year.

I do not know why this is so hard for you

(xxiii) Any roster bonus which is deemed not “likely to be earned” based upon the player’s performance during the prior year shall immediately be included in Team Salary when earned.

 

[jterrell]

Article 13
(xix) Any incentive bonus that is stated in terms of a per play or per game occurrence automatically will be deemed “likely to be earned” to the extent the specified performance was achieved by the player (if an individual incentive) or by the team (if a team incentive) in the previous year.

(xxi) Any portion of an incentive bonus that is earned, but which had not been deemed likely to be earned, will be deemed earned at the end of the season and not immediately upon attainment of the required performance level,

(xxiii) Any roster bonus which is deemed not “likely to be earned” based upon the player’s performance during the prior year shall immediately be included in Team Salary when earned. Preseason roster bonuses are automatically deemed “likely to be earned.”

I think the confusion is between the definition of Incentives.
.

The confusion is you are leaving out the CLEARLY defined exceptions as listed as sub-terms 1 and 2.
BOTH indicate per play and per game incentives are to hit the cap immediately.

You can NOT roll over costs that occur weekly only in additional accounting done at season's end for one-time bonus or incentive payments handed out after the week 16 game check.

 

[jterrell]

I do not know why this is so hard for you

(xxiii) Any roster bonus which is deemed not “likely to be earned” based upon the player’s performance during the prior year shall immediately be included in Team Salary when earned.

further, roster bonuses and per game, per week incentives are ALL handled this way.

anything paid IN the course of a season (i.e. not based upon total season values) counts that year and can only be spread over multiple years if considered a signing bonus.
only june 1st cuts or later allow for deferment and this is simply because they bring future money to roost at start of the next league year.

dallas could have given him bonuses based upon playing 10, 12, 14 games such as they did with sacks but they chose this route intentionally.

 

[BlindFaith]

I do not know why this is so hard for you

(xxiii) Any roster bonus which is deemed not “likely to be earned” based upon the player’s performance during the prior year shall immediately be included in Team Salary when earned.

(ii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be subtracted from the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year.

Why is this so hard for YOU?

 

[Corso]

Very underrated thread. I'm giving everyone on this page likes. Good, good show fellas!

 

[Eric_Boyer]

(ii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be subtracted from the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year.

Why is this so hard for YOU?

a roster bonus is an incentive bonus, but it isn't a performance bonus.

I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him drink it. you either get it at this point our you don't. that's on you. this is an easy concept.

 

[Nightman]

I do not know why this is so hard for you

(xxiii) Any roster bonus which is deemed not “likely to be earned” based upon the player’s performance during the prior year shall immediately be included in Team Salary when earned.

Thank you. I posted this last night. BF just doesn't want to acknowledge the 'when earned ' and the 'when paid' parts.

Hardy is not waiting until the end of the year to get his money. He wants it weekly like everyone else.

This is not a plan to avoid cap space. It is about protecting Dallas if Hardy gets suspended or remains on the commissioner's list.

 

[Nightman]

(ii) At the end of a season, if performance bonuses actually earned resulted in a Club paying Salary in excess of the Salary Cap, then the amount by which the Club exceeded the Salary Cap as a result of such actually paid performance bonuses shall be subtracted from the Club’s Team Salary for the next League Year.

Why is this so hard for YOU?

They have been PAID weekly

 

[Eric_Boyer]

Thank you. I posted this last night. BF just doesn't want to acknowledge the 'when earned ' and the 'when paid' parts.

Hardy is not waiting until the end of the year to get his money. He wants it weekly like everyone else.

This is not a plan to avoid cap space. It is about protecting Dallas if Hardy gets suspended or remains on the commissioner's list.

agreed.

/thread as far as I'm concerned.

 

[BlindFaith]

Deep breath.

Skip to the very end for my abridged response. But please, I encourage you to read through the whole thing if you are still paying attention.

Ok, let me try this one more time using examples. Hardy gets what is being called a Per Game Bonus of $578,125 for each game that he qualifies for (plays in?, active for?, who knows). Now, 2 of those Per Game Bonuses are LTBE. That gives us $1,156,250 that is shown as a Roster Bonus per spotrac.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/dallas-cowboys/greg-hardy/

It get's a little tricky from here. Rational thinking says that the other 14 Per Game Bonuses are NLTBE, right? I mean what else could they be if they aren't LTBE. Because they are NLTBE they are not applied to the Salary Cap for the current year at the time the contract is approved. I think we can all agree on that, right?

So the first question, and it's not really important for my argument, is when do those Per Game Bonuses get paid? All of this legal mumble jumble in the CBA pertaining to this topic fall under Incentives. There are many kinds of incentives. Performance, workouts, meeting weight goals, getting All Pro, etc. There are Team Incentives and Player Incentives as well, but that's not really important. Roster bonuses fall under Exhibit B Individual Incentives.

 

[BlindFaith]

Now we get into the mechanics of the actual rules. I have posted these many times and will do again here for clarification.

(xix) Any incentive bonus that is stated in terms of a per play or per game occurrence automatically will be deemed “likely to be earned” to the extent the specified performance was achieved by the player (if an individual incentive) or by the team (if a team incentive) in the previous year.
Hardy has a Per Game bonus. It clearly says in this section "per game occurrence". I'd argue that being active for a game is at a per game occurrence. It also states that it is only deemed to be LTBE IF it was achieved by the player in the previous year. Hardy clearly did not play all games last year, he played 2. And to repeat from earlier, he is in fact getting 2 games as LTBE in the form of a Roster Bonus.

To complicate things more, they threw in this clause:
(xxiii) Any roster bonus which is deemed not “likely to be earned” based upon the player’s performance during the prior year shall immediately be included in Team Salary when earned. Preseason roster bonuses are automatically deemed “likely to be earned.”
That sounds to be in contradiction of:
(xxi) Any portion of an incentive bonus that is earned, but which had not been deemed likely to be earned, will be deemed earned at the end of the season and not immediately upon attainment of the required performance level

(xxiii) says that it should be included in Team Salary when earned. (xxi) says if NLTBE then it will be deemed earned at the end of the season and not immediately upon attainment.