Hatcher believes RG3 gives him best chance to win a Superbowl

[SkinsHokieFan]

And of course you blame Shanahan... all Commander fans do. He is a terrific coach, and I said that in 2012 while he was taking you guys to the playoffs. It is a loss that is going to hurt your franchise.

I also said in 2012 that Shanahan was a miracle worker for what he did with Griffin. It was brilliant coaching and surprising the rest of the league that got him those 10 wins.

You think it was Griffin? ok.

Link to where you said that (seeing most of this place laughed at the Shanny hire and thought he was a product of Elway Davis and didn't think he would do diddly poo)

Griffin wasn't responsible for the historically bad special teams (historically meaning in the history of the NFL) that the Commanders fielded, which essentially cost the first game in Dallas on Monday night (and mutliple others throughout 2013)

Griffin wasn't responsible for the abysmally weak coaching staff that was hired (with exception to Bobby Turner) While I thought Kyle had potential, hiring his buddies as assistant coaches torpedo'd the offense. There simply wasn't the experience needed on the O staff to build on what was done in 2012 (this JLC article is a terrific read)

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer...nexperience-at-core-of-Commanders-dysfunction

“Kyle is the head coach, it's just that no one knows he is,” said one member of the organization. “He gets whatever he wants. And he has no relationship at all with (quarterback Robert Griffin II). So how could it work?”

Along with that a simply atrocious hire on defense, and keeping his lackey Bob Slowik on the defensive staff. There are very strong rumors that Haslett (while IMO still a very weak D coach) was unable to run his scheme and unable to hire his staff (rumors mind you, but not without merit)

To be clear, Griffin had many problems last year and was simply not good enough. However to blame the organizational failure on him is foolish and shows a lack of understanding from saavy football fans.

Even a below average special teams gets the Commanders to 6-10. The disaster on that unit simply cannot be understated. A below average, not terrible D, would have helped. What we thought was a rising trend in 2012, was simply a fluke for Mike Shanhan in Washington. It was his organizational failure, not Robert Griffin's

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

The dysfunction that Mike himself created. I'd love to hear what type of disfunction Griffin caused himself?

Duh, he created a t-shirt and one time his dad came in the locker room after a game. This is why the special teams and defense were complete dumpster fires

 

[AsthmaField]

Link to where you said that (seeing most of this place laughed at the Shanny hire and thought he was a product of Elway Davis and didn't think he would do diddly poo)

No problem. Here are a couple of posts from the CPND board from July of last year.

http://httr.cpnd.us/thread/13075/right-griff?page=3

That is probably the best I've seen it explained. It is exactly why I say coaching was so important to Griffin's success, and that he should thank his lucky stars that he got drafted by Mike Shanahan.. If defenses just bailed to cover the pass, then the run game with Morris and Griffin was going to kill them slowly. Defenses had to ensure the run game wasn't going to chew them up, and that absolutely left WR's running wide open through the secondary. It was an absolutely brilliant move by Shanahan, and it created low INT numbers and high completion % numbers for Griffin.

There is no doubt that Griffin is a good QB, but the scheme the team used made the offense a beeyotch to stop.

Mike Shanahan might be the best coach in the NFL. If he isn't, then he's damn close.

http://httr.cpnd.us/thread/13075/right-griff

His 4 to 1 TD to INT ratio was because he took very few chances on his passes because Shanahan used Griffin so brilliantly.

That's just a couple of posts that I made on the subject over there. Just look at my previous posts about training camp time last year and you will see numerous posts I made on the subject. I said all along that Shanahan was responsible for the wins in 2012.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

No problem. Here are a couple of posts from the CPND board from July of last year.

http://httr.cpnd.us/thread/13075/right-griff?page=3



http://httr.cpnd.us/thread/13075/right-griff



That's just a couple of posts that I made on the subject over there. Just look at my previous posts about training camp time last year and you will see numerous posts I made on the subject. I said all along that Shanahan was responsible for the wins in 2012.

The issue with your posts though is your opinions are contrary to all facts that have been reported.

All accounts indicate, Kyle, not Mike was running the offense and completely in charge of the scheme. There were certainly major elements (most notably the ZBS) however looking at the play calling and the run/pass ratio in all 4 years, the Commanders did not run the ball nearly as much as a Mike Shanahan offense would. In particular with weak QB situations in 2010/2011.

Along with that, if you are going to pin the credit on Mike in 2012 (which he does deserve since he was the HC and put the org together) the organizational wide failures in 2013 go on to him, including the offensive game plan being stagnant and talent choices being subpar. I also outlined in my previous post failures of the organization that clearly do not fall on Robert Griffin, in particular the historically (and I repeat NFL historically bad) special teams unit in 2013.

I have no idea how Jay Gruden will work as HC, but again accounts have indicated a) that Griffin is actually fully healthy b) has been actually working on his footwork/QB game with Terry O'Shea and C) has been chomping to get the playbook and begin offseason activities but has been barred from doing so up until this past week due to rules in the CBA. All of which are very good signs

 

[AsthmaField]

The issue with your posts though is your opinions are contrary to all facts that have been reported.

All accounts indicate, Kyle, not Mike was running the offense and completely in charge of the scheme. There were certainly major elements (most notably the ZBS) however looking at the play calling and the run/pass ratio in all 4 years, the Commanders did not run the ball nearly as much as a Mike Shanahan offense would. In particular with weak QB situations in 2010/2011.

Along with that, if you are going to pin the credit on Mike in 2012 (which he does deserve since he was the HC and put the org together) the organizational wide failures in 2013 go on to him, including the offensive game plan being stagnant and talent choices being subpar. I also outlined in my previous post failures of the organization that clearly do not fall on Robert Griffin, in particular the historically (and I repeat NFL historically bad) special teams unit in 2013.

I have no idea how Jay Gruden will work as HC, but again accounts have indicated a) that Griffin is actually fully healthy b) has been actually working on his footwork/QB game with Terry O'Shea and C) has been chomping to get the playbook and begin offseason activities but has been barred from doing so up until this past week due to rules in the CBA. All of which are very good signs

So you see that I did think you guys had a good coach? I thought that from the very beginning.

We are just going to agree to disagree if you think Mike just let his son have full run of that offense and didn't offer his input. No matter how much they actually ran the ball, that was Mike's running game that was so effective.

I do give Mike the credit for devising a brilliant way to use Griffin in 2012, and I blame him for the losing record of 2013. That doesn't mean I don't think he is a good coach though. He is. Defenses came up with a good way to defense Griffin and once the big threat of him running was gone, then teams had a relatively easy time stopping the QB once he pretty much stayed in the pocket.

What was Shanahan going to do? He had a QB that didn't have much luck throwing the ball, couldn't run the offense from the prior year as well because of his knee, and even if he could, defenses weren't caught flat footed like they were in 2012. Add in that the defense wasn't very good and I don't know if anyone could have gotten much more than 3-13 out of that group.

Shanahan did what he could, but he couldn't do much with the Commanders.

It will be interesting to see what Gruden does. He better pray that Griffin is better with his arm than he was last year.

 

[Rockport]

Funny how everyone gives rg3 crap for being a bad qb,yet he posted a 60% completion and 3200 yrd season with a bad leg while missing three games to romo's 63% completion and 3800yrd season...you guys are in for a world of hurt in 2014..lol

That's what yall said right before the last season started.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

We are just going to agree to disagree if you think Mike just let his son have full run of that offense and didn't offer his input. No matter how much they actually ran the ball, that was Mike's running game that was so effective.

.

This isn't a case of agree to disagree. This is a case where assumptions and opinions are contrary to the facts of what was happening.

What was Shanahan going to do? He had a QB that didn't have much luck throwing the ball, couldn't run the offense from the prior year as well because of his knee, and even if he could, defenses weren't caught flat footed like they were in 2012. Add in that the defense wasn't very good and I don't know if anyone could have gotten much more than 3-13 out of that group.

Shanny was the Team President/Head Coach in charge of all football operations. "What was Shanny going to do" falls on him, which is why he is gone. First, he could have hired a much more experienced/better special teams coach that doesn't get 15 yard penalties for being on the field during a game (see Sunday night game), nor gives up multiple special teams TD's per game. That is all on Mike Shanhan and would have been the same if Peyton Manning was QB. In addition, not having a more experienced offensive staff (in particular at QB coach) proved to be a disaster.

I expect a far better Griffin in 2014, being healthy and having a coach who has done quite well with Andy Dalton. The 2013 disaster though falls on Mike, seeing that the other 2/3 of the team that Griffin had nothing to do with were also miserable failures

 

[AsthmaField]

This isn't a case of agree to disagree. This is a case where assumptions and opinions are contrary to the facts of what was happening.

Evidence? There is no evidence that Mike was helping his son behind the scenes or not. He isn't going to say to the media that he is holding his son's hand or giving him ideas.

What facts are there for that? Maybe you and I are talking about two separate things.

Shanny was the Team President/Head Coach in charge of all football operations. "What was Shanny going to do" falls on him, which is why he is gone. First, he could have hired a much more experienced/better special teams coach that doesn't get 15 yard penalties for being on the field during a game (see Sunday night game), nor gives up multiple special teams TD's per game. That is all on Mike Shanhan and would have been the same if Peyton Manning was QB. In addition, not having a more experienced offensive staff (in particular at QB coach) proved to be a disaster.

I expect a far better Griffin in 2014, being healthy and having a coach who has done quite well with Andy Dalton. The 2013 disaster though falls on Mike, seeing that the other 2/3 of the team that Griffin had nothing to do with were also miserable failures

If you think Mike is a bad coach, then by all means keep thinking that. I just don't.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Evidence? There is no evidence that Mike was helping his son behind the scenes or not. He isn't going to say to the media that he is holding his son's hand or giving him ideas.

What facts are there for that? Maybe you and I are talking about two separate things.

I have posted article after article which highlights Kyle's role as offensive coordinator. It was his offense. He hired the staff. They were his buddies besides Bobby Turner. Mike was running the entire operation and was in on defensive/special teams meetings. So yes, I am saying you are overstating how much of this was Mike's offense, as opposed to Kyle's offense (who was also, BTW, calling all of the plays)

If you think Mike is a bad coach, then by all means keep thinking that. I just don't.

I never did until this past December when he was not only unable to adjust, but burnt the house down and destroyed his legacy. Along with that 6-10, 5-11 prior to 2012 were what got him fired.

http://www.cbssports.com/general/wr...xit-story-make-shanahan-snyder-easier-targets

You think it's a coincidence that after more than 11 months of secrecy, the leak came 48 hours after the Texans fired coach Gary Kubiak? Come on. Stop it. Shanahan's son once worked for the Texans, the Houston roster is a lot better than the team's 2-11 record, and it's a place for Mike Shanahan to go somewhere else, probably to retire, before everyone in the NFL realizes just how unexceptional he is, except for his luck.

Shanahan got his first big break as offensive coordinator at Florida under Charley Pell, whose teams had no salary cap and paid for it with massive NCAA sanctions. Shanahan parachuted out before the NCAA dropped the hammer, talking his way into the offensive coordinator position in 1984 with the Broncos, where a young John Elway was waiting. After four years of big-time offensive production -- what coaching! -- Shanahan fooled the Raiders into making him their head coach ... and he didn't survive two years there.

Shanahan rebuilt his image back in Denver with Elway, then was made the offensive coordinator for the 49ers in 1992, intelligently calling for Steve Young to throw it to Jerry Rice. The Broncos made him head coach, and Elway teamed with sensational running back Terrell Davis to make Shanahan a two-time Super Bowl champion. Elway retired and Shanahan did all right for himself, averaging about nine wins a year for the next decade because he's not a bad coach; he's just not as good as his résumé would have you believe.

Snyder hired him, which wasn't completely stupid, but then did something ridiculous: He allowed Shanahan to survey the NFL and college landscape for the best offensive mind he could find to run his offense, and decide the best choice was his kid.

When did I write off Mike Shanahan? That's when. When he had the arrogance and audacity to have a rich owner's fat pocketbook at his disposal, and he used all of that purchasing power to pay off his boy. When did I write off Kyle Shanahan, who I covered when he was a receiver at Duke (and liked him there)? That's when. When he chose to stop earning his way up the NFL coaching ranks and instead latched onto daddy's payroll.

 

[AsthmaField]

I have posted article after article which highlights Kyle's role as offensive coordinator. It was his offense. He hired the staff. They were his buddies besides Bobby Turner. Mike was running the entire operation and was in on defensive/special teams meetings. So yes, I am saying you are overstating how much of this was Mike's offense, as opposed to Kyle's offense (who was also, BTW, calling all of the plays)

And I say that there was a lot (of offensive assistance) behind the scenes that we will never know about... thus, my saying it was a difference of opinions.

I will leave it at that, and move on to a more productive conversation.

I never did until this past December when he was not only unable to adjust, but burnt the house down and destroyed his legacy. Along with that 6-10, 5-11 prior to 2012 were what got him fired.

http://www.cbssports.com/general/wr...xit-story-make-shanahan-snyder-easier-targets

I don't think he forgot how to coach offense from Jan 2013 to August 2013. You do. That's fine.

I've enjoyed talking to you.

 

[Sonny#9]

If you think Mike is a bad coach, then by all means keep thinking that. I just don't.

I don't think Mike Shanahan is a bad football coach--He was a bad coach here. Just like Bill Belicheck in Cleveland was a failure. Bill Belicheck before Tom Brady was a failure. Pete Carroll in NE was terrible. Rob Ryan is a great example of failing in one location, and succeeding in another, without any real explanation.

Likewise, most accounts of the offense last year described as predicable. Kyle Shanahan is a brilliant play designer, but a terrible play caller. He has little feel for the flow of the game. And I really liked him when he was hired. He just couldn't adjust appropriately.

We'll see what Jay Gruden brings to the table...

 

[AsthmaField]

I don't think Mike Shanahan is a bad football coach--He was a bad coach here. Just like Bill Belicheck in Cleveland was a failure. Bill Belicheck before Tom Brady was a failure. Pete Carroll in NE was terrible. Rob Ryan is a great example of failing in one location, and succeeding in another, without any real explanation.

Likewise, most accounts of the offense last year described as predicable. Kyle Shanahan is a brilliant play designer, but a terrible play caller. He has little feel for the flow of the game. And I really liked him when he was hired. He just couldn't adjust appropriately.

We'll see what Jay Gruden brings to the table...

Yeah, hard to disagree with any of that... although it should be noted that Belichick, Carroll, and Ryan all failed early and then learned from their mistakes and figured it out later. With Shanahan, you have to think that he had it and then lost it, which is a questionable line of thinking. Although by pointing out Brady, perhaps you're trying to say that Shanahan won because of Elway.

In one of my earlier posts in this thread I linked to some stuff I wrote on CPND last July where I talk about what a great job of coaching Shanahan had done in Washington in 2012. I fully believe he did a magnificent job that year. The way he used Griffin was nothing short of brilliant and it created problems for the rest of the NFL. His running game, which is terrific everywhere he's coached, was just starting to take off in DC and the indecision created in the defense by having that running game supplemented by a really fast QB opened up the passing game a ton by NFL standards. Teams didn't know what to do to stop it and the wins started piling up.

With teams having the whole offseason to devise a strategy against the offense and with Griffin not being asked to run nearly as much, the wheels fell off the offense. The defense had serious personnel issues and the team lost a lot. Was that Shanahan's fault? Ultimately it is of course, because he was the head coach. I don't think he forgot how to coach though as much as it was just an incredibly difficult situation to be in. The offense from the previous season just wasn't working and a typical offense like they were trying to run with Griffin, just wasn't working either.

Had Shanahan been able to put Cousins in early, perhaps he could have made it work, but the defense still would have had problems. I don't know, but I do think Mike Shanahan is a really good coach regardless of what happened in 2013. Maybe I'm wrong, but the guy is just flat out great with an offense.

I still say his big problem is finding a defensive coordinator who is as good as he is with offense. If he had that, he would be winning a whole lot, IMO.

 

[Sonny#9]

Yeah, hard to disagree with any of that... although it should be noted that Belichick, Carroll, and Ryan all failed early and then learned from their mistakes and figured it out later. With Shanahan, you have to think that he had it and then lost it, which is a questionable line of thinking. Although by pointing out Brady, perhaps you're trying to say that Shanahan won because of Elway.

A more fitting comparison would be guys like Parcells with the Cowboys. Parcells did not win a playoff game with Dallas (as I am sure you well know). Jimmy Johnson with Miami is another. There are many older coaches--Super Bowl winning coaches--who cannot replicate their success with another team. It's an odd fact--no coach has won the Super Bowl with 2 different teams.

In one of my earlier posts in this thread I linked to some stuff I wrote on CPND last July where I talk about what a great job of coaching Shanahan had done in Washington in 2012. I fully believe he did a magnificent job that year. The way he used Griffin was nothing short of brilliant and it created problems for the rest of the NFL. His running game, which is terrific everywhere he's coached, was just starting to take off in DC and the indecision created in the defense by having that running game supplemented by a really fast QB opened up the passing game a ton by NFL standards. Teams didn't know what to do to stop it and the wins started piling up.

With teams having the whole offseason to devise a strategy against the offense and with Griffin not being asked to run nearly as much, the wheels fell off the offense. The defense had serious personnel issues and the team lost a lot. Was that Shanahan's fault? Ultimately it is of course, because he was the head coach. I don't think he forgot how to coach though as much as it was just an incredibly difficult situation to be in. The offense from the previous season just wasn't working and a typical offense like they were trying to run with Griffin, just wasn't working either.

Mike Shanahan had his Eric Bischoff moment. In case you don't get the reference, Bischoff ran WCW in the late 90s-early 2000's. I was an old school wrestling fan--not any more--but I really loved the WCW b/c of the NWO. Bischoff turned Hulk Hogan heel, and created the NWO. Great idea, great move--he killed the WWF/E in the ratings for a couple of years. But that was it. That was all he had. It was his one good idea--he couldn't come up with anything else. 2012 was Shanhan's NWO. He and Kyle couldn't counter what defenses did to adjust to the Commanders offense.

It happens to all coaches over time, for whatever reason. I don't think he forgot how to coach--what he did just ceased to work--and he couldn't come up with anything else.

Had Shanahan been able to put Cousins in early, perhaps he could have made it work, but the defense still would have had problems. I don't know, but I do think Mike Shanahan is a really good coach regardless of what happened in 2013. Maybe I'm wrong, but the guy is just flat out great with an offense.

I still say his big problem is finding a defensive coordinator who is as good as he is with offense. If he had that, he would be winning a whole lot, IMO.

I could write pages about Shanahan's problem with defenses here--to the point where people here are willing to give Haslett another chance. Special teams was even worse. It's all academic now--no one could have survived last year; on the field or off. Ultimately, that falls at Shanahan's feet. I personally think he's a complete ego maniac that torches bridges trying to save his reputation...[/quote]

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

I personally think he's a complete ego maniac that torches bridges trying to save his reputation...

[/quote]

Right. And RG3-10 is a poor victim of circumstance who in some defying fashion was still able to pull off 3 wins in spite of his coaches, his piss poor defense and special teams, and the media trolls reporting inaccurate sensationalized pot stirring junk.

 

[Califan007]

After reading the CZ Fan Zone forum and the NFL Zone forum for a few months, I think I get the CZ logic:

Romo, in his 10th year in the league, can not be expected to win when coupled with one of the worst defenses in the league, along with all the injuries...including his own.

RG3, in his 2nd year, is absolutely expected to win when coupled with one of the worst defenses in the league, along with the worst special teams unit in the league...along with the injuries....including recuperating from his own offseason surgery.


But even at 32, Romo can still have several more good seasons, and could even improve over last season once the team around him gets straightened out.

But even at 23, Griffin has hit his ceiling and won't improve at all over last season, even if the team around him gets straightened out.


I think when you make yourself believe the above statements are carved-in-stone fact, understanding CZ posts becomes much, much easier.


*In addition, after reading the CZ Rant Zone forum, I think there may not be a fan base in the entire league that throws more unnecessary hate towards their team than Cowboys fans.

 

[Rockport]

After reading the CZ Fan Zone forum and the NFL Zone forum for a few months, I think I get the CZ logic:

Romo, in his 10th year in the league, can not be expected to win when coupled with one of the worst defenses in the league, along with all the injuries...including his own.

RG3, in his 2nd year, is absolutely expected to win when coupled with one of the worst defenses in the league, along with the worst special teams unit in the league...along with the injuries....including recuperating from his own offseason surgery.


But even at 32, Romo can still have several more good seasons, and could even improve over last season once the team around him gets straightened out.

But even at 23, Griffin has hit his ceiling and won't improve at all over last season, even if the team around him gets straightened out.


I think when you make yourself believe the above statements are carved-in-stone fact, understanding CZ posts becomes much, much easier.


*In addition, after reading the CZ Rant Zone forum, I think there may not be a fan base in the entire league that throws more unnecessary hate towards their team than Cowboys fans.

Actually, you have it all wrong. I was in here last year at this time saying RGIII's knee will never be the same and he'll never be as good as he was his first year. His injuries were due to the system and how he played it. Skin fans said his knee will be fine and he'll be better than ever. After the first game, those same Skin fans never returned.

 

[Califan007]

Actually, you have it all wrong. I was in here last year at this time saying RGIII's knee will never be the same and he'll never be as good as he was his first year. His injuries were due to the system and how he played it. Skin fans said his knee will be fine and he'll be better than ever. After the first game, those same Skin fans never returned.

No, I got it right...I said CZ logic, not AB logic lol...

And Griffin's knee injuries weren't caused by the system he played in. They were more caused by A) his playing style--that is, his utter lack of the ability to slide, and slide correctly, and B) the FedEx field conditions. Both times in the Seattle game when Griffin hurt his knee, he was untouched.

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

Actually, you have it all wrong. I was in here last year at this time saying RGIII's knee will never be the same and he'll never be as good as he was his first year. His injuries were due to the system and how he played it. Skin fans said his knee will be fine and he'll be better than ever. After the first game, those same Skin fans never returned.

Prove it. Name who those posters are. You keep stating this completely unsubstantiated nonsense, yet aren't backing it up.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

Prove it. Name who those posters are. You keep stating this completely unsubstantiated nonsense, yet aren't backing it up.

It is a great message board non sequitor.

There are plenty of Commanders fans here who are fans of a team coming off a debacle of a 3-13 season. AB's point may have more merit if none of us were here until we start 4-0 next year and are coming off a win in Dallas.

But seeing that there are probably 8-10 regular Commanders posters in this forum, going back several years now (5 of the last 6 being in last place) his "point" falls on deaf ears and has no basis. And it is the argument of a loser to be quite honest when one has to turn the subject into "where were you 3 months ago!!!!"

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

It is a great message board non sequitor.

There are plenty of Commanders fans here who are fans of a team coming off a debacle of a 3-13 season. AB's point may have more merit if none of us were here until we start 4-0 next year and are coming off a win in Dallas.

But seeing that there are probably 8-10 regular Commanders posters in this forum, going back several years now (5 of the last 6 being in last place) his "point" falls on deaf ears and has no basis. And it is the argument of a loser to be quite honest when one has to turn the subject into "where were you 3 months ago!!!!"

You are 100% correct, but even if that wasn't case and we hadn't been posting here for years, he's still completely wrong about last season. It's obvious he pulled that line out of his butt and has too much pride to admit he was wrong.