Here is why I don't put much stock in pressure stats

[kskboys]

You mean “almost Anthony”?

To me, a pressure is only when you are closing in on the QB forcing him to throw the ball. I think it's being defined way too loosely.

One of the Texans players last night would get a pressure from me, he was lying on the ground and grabbed Allen's foot as he ran by, slowing him down so someone could get him. That's a pressure. Just getting near him is not a pressure, especially if the QB has already held the ball for 4 seconds. No pressures should be given after 3.5 seconds.

 

[Spottswoode]

Exactly what I was going to say.

If a lack of subjectiveness is a requirement for a stat to have value, then we need to discard 95% of the stats.

 

[Hardline]

Who says that?

That’s like saying missing a putt by a foot is the same as making the putt.

Very bad analogy.

 

[Spottswoode]

Very bad analogy.

I’m open minded…please explain why

 

[foofighters]

Pressuring the QB means something. Pressure stats don't. They are too subjective. You and I can watch the same game and come up with completely different pressure statistics.

Are you ever happy about anything?

 

[Hardline]

I’m open minded…please explain why

If a QB is running for his life and fires a 50 yard completion down feild was it really pressure? Does a sacked QB make completions?
There was pressure on Aaron Rodgers when he threw a completion to his TE to get in feild goal range to beat us in a playoff game. I would've rather seen him on the turf.

 

[Spottswoode]

If a QB is running for his life and fires a 50 yard completion down feild was it really pressure? Does a sacked QB make completions?
There was pressure on Aaron Rodgers when he threw a completion to his TE to get in feild goal range to beat us in a playoff game. I would've rather seen him on the turf.

Then it sounds like you don’t like the intent of the stat.

Pressure is a pass rushing stat. It’s one of many stats intended to reflect the performance of those who rush the QB. Pressures don’t measure the final outcome of the play unless sacks are included in the pressure stat.

Sacks (making the putt) measure the ultimate goal. Pressure (near miss) tracks one metric that didn’t reach the primary goal.

We track many metrics to get a better idea of effectiveness. Passing stats are supplemented with stats covering air yards, Y/C, YAC, drops, on-target, off-target, and on and on. Every position has sub stats to get a more complete picture of effectiveness and most of those stats are subjective too.

 

[Established1971]

Pressuring the QB means something. Pressure stats don't. They are too subjective. You and I can watch the same game and come up with completely different pressure statistics.

totally agree, still worth something but with a big asterisk

 

[gtb1943]

If a lack of subjectiveness is a requirement for a stat to have value, then we need to discard 95% of the stats.

Completions, interceptions, touchdowns, first downs, I could go on and on about how that 95% claim is so dumb

 

[Spottswoode]

Completions, interceptions, touchdowns, first downs, I could go on and on about how that 95% claim is so dumb

Every one of those metrics have a subjective component to them. We see it all the time, even after instant replay. There are some that are less subjective than others but I never made a claim as to the level of subjectiveness.

But I do appreciate your cordial response to my opinion.

 

[kskboys]

If a QB is running for his life and fires a 50 yard completion down feild was it really pressure? Does a sacked QB make completions?
There was pressure on Aaron Rodgers when he threw a completion to his TE to get in feild goal range to beat us in a playoff game. I would've rather seen him on the turf.

Well of course, but that's not reality. Pressure causes QBs to make mistakes, throw incompletions, and force more 3 n outs.

 

[Cmac]

......the pressure stats (almost got there) got Micah Parsons hyped and paid.

 

[Creeper]

I do agree that not all pressures are the same. Late pressures don't count in my mind. I look at the QB and how he responds to the rush. Good pressures force the QB off his spot, out of the pocket, or they force him to release the ball early. Good pressure disrupts the offense and forces quick throws or bad decisions. Getting pressure after the QB has had a chance to sit in the pocket and scan the entire field, then to throw downfield, is not really pressure at all.

 

[gtb1943]

Every one of those metrics have a subjective component to them. We see it all the time, even after instant replay. There are some that are less subjective than others but I never made a claim as to the level of subjectiveness.

But I do appreciate your cordial response to my opinion.

is a td a td? YES
is a average YPC accurate? YES

I bet you claim TOP is subjective too.

there is nothing subjective about that and if you think so you need to retake football 101

 

[Spottswoode]

is a td a td? YES
is a average YPC accurate? YES

I bet you claim TOP is subjective too.

there is nothing subjective about that and if you think so you need to retake football 101

Why are you so bitter. I’m not your enemy and I have been cordial to you.

All of those stats that you previously referred to have a degree of subjectivity. If you want to say a TD is a TD because it says so on a stat sheet, fine. But whether every TD should have been a TD can be subjective.

Most TD’s are clear cut but others not so much. We will likely see multiple TD’s this weekend that will be disputed. It may revolve around maintaining possession through the ground. It may be related to breaking the plane before going out of bounds. Or maybe whether they broke the plane on a goal line scrum. And we will see fans across the nation who will be complaining about those calls.

And even when they use instant replay, how often do the announcers or the network ref reach a different conclusion than the call on the field? Humans make the calls and humans view things differently.

If there is no subjectivity, why does the call on the field matter before replay is reviewed. It’s because replays require incontrovertible visual evidence to overturn and without that, the call on the field takes priority.

The same holds true for receptions, interceptions, first downs, etc. How many times this weekend will we see a team get a bad spot, or a disputed first down, or a host of other subjective calls? How many times will a team rush to the line to run a play before a team can challenge? And how many times will fans complain that a coach should have thrown a challenge flag after seeing a replay?

As far as YPC, sure it’s technically accurate because it’s a simple math formula to determine an average. But the receptions and yards that make up the formula have a degree of subjectivity. So YPC is influenced by the subjectivity of it’s components.

I am not making a claim. I am stating a fact which I rarely do in my discussions. And whether I need to retake Football 101 or you have a doctorate in football is irrelevant.

Whether it’s 90%, 95%, or 98% is not the point. That was just a number I threw out to make a larger point that most NFL stats have a degree of subjectivity or are influenced by stats that have a degree of subjectivity.

As far as TOP, I don’t know what that is.

 

[conner01]

It’s just 1 of hundreds of data points. Few, if any, provide a full picture in isolation.

I consider pressure a directional metric that has its limitations. But I still think it’s a good metric when taken in context.

Well put

 

[gtb1943]

Why are you so bitter. I’m not your enemy and I have been cordial to you.

All of those stats that you previously referred to have a degree of subjectivity. If you want to say a TD is a TD because it says so on a stat sheet, fine. But whether every TD should have been a TD can be subjective.

Most TD’s are clear cut but others not so much. We will likely see multiple TD’s this weekend that will be disputed. It may revolve around maintaining possession through the ground. It may be related to breaking the plane before going out of bounds. Or maybe whether they broke the plane on a goal line scrum. And we will see fans across the nation who will be complaining about those calls.

And even when they use instant replay, how often do the announcers or the network ref reach a different conclusion than the call on the field? Humans make the calls and humans view things differently.

If there is no subjectivity, why does the call on the field matter before replay is reviewed. It’s because replays require incontrovertible visual evidence to overturn and without that, the call on the field takes priority.

The same holds true for receptions, interceptions, first downs, etc. How many times this weekend will we see a team get a bad spot, or a disputed first down, or a host of other subjective calls? How many times will a team rush to the line to run a play before a team can challenge? And how many times will fans complain that a coach should have thrown a challenge flag after seeing a replay?

As far as YPC, sure it’s technically accurate because it’s a simple math formula to determine an average. But the receptions and yards that make up the formula have a degree of subjectivity. So YPC is influenced by the subjectivity of it’s components.

I am not making a claim. I am stating a fact which I rarely do in my discussions. And whether I need to retake Football 101 or you have a doctorate in football is irrelevant.

Whether it’s 90%, 95%, or 98% is not the point. That was just a number I threw out to make a larger point that most NFL stats have a degree of subjectivity or are influenced by stats that have a degree of subjectivity.

As far as TOP, I don’t know what that is.

You do not know what TOP is and you claim to be a football expert?

I am surprised you know what YPC is

So tell me is a TD worth 6 pts and a PAT worth 1 and a FG worth 3?

Tell me what is subjective about those?

a tackle is a tackle; a sack is a sack. Nothing subjective about those at all
a INT is a loss of possession; nothing subjective about that.

 

[erod]

Pressuring the QB means something. Pressure stats don't. They are too subjective. You and I can watch the same game and come up with completely different pressure statistics.

Stats in general mean nothing. It's about performance in moments that truly matter that defines teams and players.

The rest is for the football illiterate who need numbers to make them feel like they understand what they're watching.

 

[Spottswoode]

You do not know what TOP is and you claim to be a football expert?

I am surprised you know what YPC is

So tell me is a TD worth 6 pts and a PAT worth 1 and a FG worth 3?

Tell me what is subjective about those?

a tackle is a tackle; a sack is a sack. Nothing subjective about those at all
a INT is a loss of possession; nothing subjective about that.

I’m thinking you are trolling now. I‘ll keep it adult instead of sharing my true thoughts regarding this discussion. And instead of being a bitter Zoner and throwing out insults, have a normal discussion.

First, I never claimed to be a football expert. You have obviously become heated in trying to make your point. But I have never attacked you despite your insults and continued moving of the goal posts.

Second, when you say TOP, are you referring to time of possession? I thought we were discussing player related stats. If you mean time of possession, the coin flip is also not subjective.

Third, as far as how many points a score is worth, I’ll chalk that up to grasping at straws to attempt to make a point. It’s silly to consider that a stat in the context of our discussion. It’s a rule. That’s like saying the cost of a hot dog at the stadium isn’t subjective.

As far as the other stats, you are missing the point about what is subjective about most stats. It’s not about whether it shows on a stat sheet. It’s about whether there is any subjectivity on whether it should be included or not.

I stated earlier that different stats have different degrees of subjectivity. Yes, a sack is a sack on the stat sheet. But there is some subjectivity on when a sack is a sack. For example, one ref could call in the grasp while another may not. One player may get credit for 1/2 sack or may not get any credit. The marking of the ball might create or eliminate a sack. Personally, I didn’t think Micah should have been credited with a sack on Dak.

As far as your interception comment, that’s another grasping at straws argument. Of course an interception is a loss of possession because that is the rule. There is no subjectivity to the loss of possession rule. But once again you are confusing rules with subjectivity.

 

[zrinkill]

I just hate the stat period ...... its like if you almost catch a pass or you almost make a tackle .......

Never heard of the stat as if is was something great, until people were trying to defend Randy Gregory.