How is Greg Ellis a great pass rusher?

[dbair1967]

Shaun Ellis had 8.5 sacks during his rookie year. According to you Greg Ellis is better than Shaun Ellis. If Shaun can get 8.5 sacks during his rookie year why couldn't Greg Ellis?

To excuse Greg Ellis for getting only 3 sacks because he was a rookie is rather weak considering he was the 8th overall pick. Dwight Freeny had 13 sacks during his rookie year and he was the 11th overall pick. You are just providing excuse after excuse after excuse.......

honestly you arnt even worth arguing with anymore...

David

 

[mr.jameswoods]

honestly you arnt even worth arguing with anymore...

David

Weak, you have to resort to personal attacks when you can't back up your claims with stats and evidence like I did. Why don't you answer my post with evidence instead of personal attacks? Are you capable of doing that or are you going to respond with cheap insults again? Is that the best you can do?

 

[dbair1967]

Weak, you have to resort to personal attacks when you can't back up your claims with stats and evidence like I did. Why don't you answer my post with evidence instead of personal attacks? Are you capable of doing that or are you going to respond with cheap insults again? Is that the best you can do?

look, there have been boo-koos of posts refuting your ridiculous take on Greg Ellis, you just choose to ignore them...its like beating a dead horse, and thats why I said you arnt worth arguing with anymore...you obviously dont like him, fine...but he's still a good player and for the money we pay him and the results we get in return, an incredible bargain

David

 

[mr.jameswoods]

look, there have been boo-koos of posts refuting your ridiculous take on Greg Ellis, you just choose to ignore them...its like beating a dead horse, and thats why I said you arnt worth arguing with anymore...you obviously dont like him, fine...but he's still a good player and for the money we pay him and the results we get in return, an incredible bargain

David

Instead of resorting to personal attacks, why don't you explain how Shaun Ellis got 8.5 sacks as a rookie but it's okay for Greg Ellis to get 3 sacks as a rookie. The only thing that is ridiculous is how you keep avoiding the subject. If you can't hang, I understand, just say so and I will leave you alone. Now are you going to respond with more insults or can you debate like an adult?

 

[big dog cowboy]

Ellis is a average pass rusher and above average run stopper. He plays smart and plays hard every down. I don't think we could ask for a whole lot more.

Especially since he wasn't a top 10 draft pick, right? Those are supposed to be impact players. Right???

Oops.

 

[jimmy40]

I'm still waiting for dbair to explain how it's okay for a top 10 pick like Greg Ellis to get 3 sacks because he was a rookie when you have rookies like Shaun Ellis, Julius Peppers, Dwight Freeney and Simeon Rice eclipsing that total as rookies

Should be interesting.

Maybe because he plays for the Cowboys and they don't?

 

[dbair1967]

Instead of resorting to personal attacks, why don't you explain how Shaun Ellis got 8.5 sacks as a rookie but it's okay for Greg Ellis to get 3 sacks as a rookie. The only thing that is ridiculous is how you keep avoiding the subject. If you can't hang, I understand, just say so and I will leave you alone. Now are you going to respond with more insults or can you debate like an adult?

who cares what they got as rookies? thats was 6 and 5 years ago...I am looking at what the players are now, and the recent numbers plus my own eyes tell me Cowboys Ellis is a better all around DE than the Jets Ellis, and doesnt cost anywhere near as much...Charles Haley had one yr for us when he got 4 sacks, what do you think of that? are you going to try and tell me now that Haley sux? Tony Tolbert only had one yr with double digit sacks, did he suck?

David

 

[AceofSpades]

Weak, you have to resort to personal attacks when you can't back up your claims with stats and evidence like I did. Why don't you answer my post with evidence instead of personal attacks? Are you capable of doing that or are you going to respond with cheap insults again? Is that the best you can do?

Where were the personal attacks?

 

[dbair1967]

I'm still waiting for dbair to explain how it's okay for a top 10 pick like Greg Ellis to get 3 sacks because he was a rookie when you have rookies like Shaun Ellis, Julius Peppers, Dwight Freeney and Simeon Rice eclipsing that total as rookies

Should be interesting.

honestly, what is it you are arguing about? What point are you trying to make? That because Ellis only had 3 sacks in a season 6 yrs ago that he sux today?

Jason Taylor had 5 sacks as a rookie and only 2 1/2 his 3rd yr in the league...Michael Strahan didnt get double digit sacks until his FIFTH year in the league and only had 5 1/2 his first two years in the league...

I really dont see what you are arguing about, which is why I've said two or three times now its a waste of time...nothing you can argue takes away from the fact that Ellis is a good all around DE, the past 3 season he has 7 1/2, 8 and 8 sacks, with 5 games to go this yr...he plays the run extremely well and has a great knack for batting down balls, with 17 in his last 27 games...the "other" Ellis has only 3 in his last 25 games...Grant Wistrom has 17 in his CAREER...Ellis also has 12 forced fumble in his career, Shaun Ellis has only 5...Grant Wistrom has only 6...

there are alot of reasons why some players mount bugegr sack numbers than others...things like scheme and supporting cast have a huge impact on sack totals...the fact is we play a very conservative DL scheme here and Ellis has never played opp a good pass rushing DE...Leonard Little in St Louis and John Abraham of the Jets are two of the premier RDE's in football, if you think they dont impact the play around them then you truly are missing the boat...

and finally, here are the numbers for Greg Ellis, Shaun Ellis and Grant Wistrom:

S Ellis:

DEFENSIVE STATS

Year Team G Total Tckl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
2000 New York Jets 16 53 39.0 14 8.5 1 1 1.0 1 0 2
2001 New York Jets 16 39 27.0 12 5 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2002 New York Jets 16 40 30.0 10 4 0 0 0.0 0 0 4
2003 New York Jets 16 69 47.0 22 12.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
2004 New York Jets 9 33 18.0 15 3.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 3
TOTAL 73 234 161.0 73 33.5 1 1 1.0 1 0 11


FUMBLES

Year Team G Fum Lost Fum Forced Own Rec Opp Rec Yards Tot Rec TD
2000 New York Jets 16 0 0 1 0 2 2 2 0
2001 New York Jets 16 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
2002 New York Jets 16 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
2003 New York Jets 16 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
2004 New York Jets 9 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
TOTAL 73 0 0 5 0 2 2 2 0

Wistrom:

DEFENSIVE STATS

Year Team G Total Tckl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
1998 St. Louis Rams 13 24 18.0 6 3 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
1999 St. Louis Rams 16 39 32.0 7 6.5 2 131 65.5 91 2 4
2000 St. Louis Rams 16 63 50.0 13 11 0 0 0.0 0 0 5
2001 St. Louis Rams 15 54 44.0 10 9 2 -4 -2.0 0 0 2
2002 St. Louis Rams 15 47 44.0 3 4.5 1 2 2.0 2 0 3
2003 St. Louis Rams 16 60 49.0 11 7.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 1
2004 Seattle Seahawks 6 26 19.0 7 2.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
TOTAL 97 313 256.0 57 44 5 129 25.8 91 2 17


FUMBLES

Year Team G Fum Lost Fum Forced Own Rec Opp Rec Yards Tot Rec TD
1998 St. Louis Rams 13 0 0 0 0 1 4 1 0
1999 St. Louis Rams 16 1 1 0 0 1 31 1 0
2000 St. Louis Rams 16 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
2001 St. Louis Rams 15 0 0 2 0 1 17 1 0
2002 St. Louis Rams 15 0 0 1 0 2 1 2 0
2003 St. Louis Rams 16 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0
2004 Seattle Seahawks 6 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0
TOTAL 97 1 1 6 0 7 53 7

Greg Ellis:

1998 Dallas Cowboys 16 36 25.0 11 3 0 0 0.0 0 0 5
1999 Dallas Cowboys 13 42 34.0 8 7.5 1 87 87.0 87 1 2
2000 Dallas Cowboys 16 52 39.0 13 3 0 0 0.0 0 0 1
2001 Dallas Cowboys 16 60 45.0 15 6 0 0 0.0 0 0 5
2002 Dallas Cowboys 15 66 49.0 17 7.5 1 0 0.0 0 0 2
2003 Dallas Cowboys 16 48 33.0 15 8 0 0 0.0 0 0 9
2004 Dallas Cowboys 11 40 30.0 10 8 0 0 0.0 0 0 8
TOTAL 103 344 255.0 89 43 2 87 43.5 87 1 32


FUMBLES

Year Team G Fum Lost Fum Forced Own Rec Opp Rec Yards Tot Rec TD
1998 Dallas Cowboys 16 0 0 1 0 1 2 1 0
1999 Dallas Cowboys 13 0 0 2 0 1 98 1 1
2000 Dallas Cowboys 16 0 0 0 0 2 0 2 0
2001 Dallas Cowboys 16 0 0 3 0 2 0 2 0
2002 Dallas Cowboys 15 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0
2003 Dallas Cowboys 16 0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0
2004 Dallas Cowboys 11 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
TOTAL 103 0 0 12 0 6 100 6 1

David

 

[dbair1967]

Where were the personal attacks?

I kinda wondered the same thing...

cool sig by the way Ace

David

 

[mr.jameswoods]

who cares what they got as rookies? thats was 6 and 5 years ago...I am looking at what the players are now, and the recent numbers plus my own eyes tell me Cowboys Ellis is a better all around DE than the Jets Ellis, and doesnt cost anywhere near as much...Charles Haley had one yr for us when he got 4 sacks, what do you think of that? are you going to try and tell me now that Haley sux? Tony Tolbert only had one yr with double digit sacks, did he suck?

David

You made excuses for Greg Ellis' lack of double digit sacks by saying he has been consistent over his career. If you are claiming a player like Ellis has been consistent over his career then you have to account for his rookie season too. You don't just count the last 4 years because you feel like it.

The fact is Greg Ellis has not achieved 7-8 sacks every year he has been in the league. Therefore, Greg Ellis has not been consistent like you claim he has been. He has been in the league for 7 seasons. During his rookie year, he had 3 sacks. His rookie status is no excuse for his poor sack totals. And the reason why it's not an appropriate excuse is because other high first round defensive ends had successful rookie years like Shaun Ellis and Dwight Freeny.

Charles Haley also had seasons with double digit sacks. I'm sure if Haley had Greg Ellis stats over his first 7 years, people would criticize him too.

 

[mr.jameswoods]

Maybe because he plays for the Cowboys and they don't?

Based on his arguments thus far, that makes the most sense.

 

[mr.jameswoods]

honestly, what is it you are arguing about? What point are you trying to make? That because Ellis only had 3 sacks in a season 6 yrs ago that he sux today?

Jason Taylor had 5 sacks as a rookie and only 2 1/2 his 3rd yr in the league...Michael Strahan didnt get double digit sacks until his FIFTH year in the league and only had 5 1/2 his first two years in the league...

Listen, you made excuses for Greg Ellis' lack of a double digit sack season by rationalizing that he has been consistent over his career.That's my point. If you are going to make a claim like that, make sure you are accurate. And you were not accurate. Greg Ellis had two 3 sack seasons and one 6 sacks season out of 7 years. So you are not being very accurate with your statements. It's not accurate to say that he has consistently gotten 7-8 sacks per season when 3 out of those 7 seasons have accounted for 6 sacks or less.

I really dont see what you are arguing about, which is why I've said two or three times now its a waste of time...nothing you can argue takes away from the fact that Ellis is a good all around DE, the past 3 season he has 7 1/2, 8 and 8 sacks, with 5 games to go this yr...he plays the run extremely well and has a great knack for batting down balls, with 17 in his last 27 games...the "other" Ellis has only 3 in his last 25 games...Grant Wistrom has 17 in his CAREER...Ellis also has 12 forced fumble in his career, Shaun Ellis has only 5...Grant Wistrom has only 6...

We were arguing about Ellis as a pass rusher. I already acknowledged he is a good DE overall. That's not he issue. Thus far, Shaun Ellis and Grant Wistrom have proven to be better pass rushers than Greg Ellis.

there are alot of reasons why some players mount bugegr sack numbers than others...things like scheme and supporting cast have a huge impact on sack totals...the fact is we play a very conservative DL scheme here and Ellis has never played opp a good pass rushing DE...Leonard Little in St Louis and John Abraham of the Jets are two of the premier RDE's in football, if you think they dont impact the play around them then you truly are missing the boat...

You did it again. You made a claim without investigating it properly. Case in point, you claim or imply that a DE needs a supporting cast to acquire high sack totals. Did you know that Michael Strahan and other defensive ends are getting a lot of sacks without playing alongside a great supporting cast? Who does Leonard Little play alongside in St. Louis? i could list 5 or 6 other defensive ends who are excelling despite not playing alongside a great supporting cast on the DL. What was their excuse? How are they doing it?

And what does our scheme have to do with 3rd and long? Why does our defensive line fail to get a sack or apply pressure to opposing offenses on third and long? That has nothing to do with scheme.

 

[AdamJT13]

This might be the lamest thread ever. I'd expect a troll to start something like this, but not a supposed Cowboys fan.

Exactly what was the point of it? To diminish Greg Ellis' ability as a defensive end? To bait another forum member into an argument, when the instigator has already made up his mind?

Honestly, I don't get it. I'm almost ashamed that I read it.

 

[mr.jameswoods]

This might be the lamest thread ever. I'd expect a troll to start something like this, but not a supposed Cowboys fan.

Exactly what was the point of it? To diminish Greg Ellis' ability as a defensive end? To bait another forum member into an argument, when the instigator has already made up his mind?

Honestly, I don't get it. I'm almost ashamed that I read it.

You can use my name Adam; it's okay. Likewise, let's be a little more candid here. You like Greg Ellis and you have defended him in the past which is why you think this is such a lame thread. Of course, you will think it's lame because you think highly of Ellis. The only thing that is lame is how anyone can argue that Greg Ellis poses a threat as a pass rusher. It amazes me how threads one disagrees with are lame and those opinions who one agrees with is insightful. It's called partisanship and nothing more.

And my question was serious but certain members took too much freedom in taking cheap shots at me instead of answering the question sincerely. This is why I responded to particular accounts.

 

[jimmy40]

This might be the lamest thread ever. I'd expect a troll to start something like this, but not a supposed Cowboys fan.

Exactly what was the point of it? To diminish Greg Ellis' ability as a defensive end? To bait another forum member into an argument, when the instigator has already made up his mind?

Honestly, I don't get it. I'm almost ashamed that I read it.

You joined in a thread your almost ashamed you read? You must be having a hard time coming up with some stats to prop up Ellis on this one. I bet that's what your really ashamed about.

 

[AdamJT13]

You can use my name Adam; it's okay. Likewise, let's be a little more candid here. You like Greg Ellis and you have defended him in the past which is why you think this is such a lame thread. Of course, you will think it's lame because you think highly of Ellis. The only thing that is lame is how anyone can argue that Greg Ellis poses a threat as a pass rusher. It amazes me how threads one disagrees with are lame and those opinions who one agrees with is insightful. It's called partisanship and nothing more.

And my question was serious but certain members took too much freedom in taking cheap shots at me instead of answering the question sincerely. This is why I responded to particular accounts.

Sorry, but I've never said Ellis was a great pass rusher. You must have me confused with someone else -- although since I don't remember reading anyone ever claim that Ellis was a "great pass rusher," I have no idea whom that might be.

 

[Tobal]

EFFORT. .............

I would give all the effort in the world it's not gonna make me a great pass rusher

 

[mr.jameswoods]

Sorry, but I've never said Ellis was a great pass rusher. You must have me confused with someone else -- although since I don't remember reading anyone ever claim that Ellis was a "great pass rusher," I have no idea whom that might be.

Funny, I didn't accuse you of saying Ellis was a great pass rusher; I just said you thought highly of him.

But you are right. No one ever claims Ellis is a great pass rusher. You and others just happens "take issue when anyone claims Ellis is weak against the pass." Forgive me, the distinction is so profound.

 

[Randy White]

even I am getting tired of this one.