How is Greg Ellis a great pass rusher?

[Chuck 54]

You dont think theres ever enough 3rd and long scenarios over the course of a season, JD, to where any of our Ends should be in nothing much more than "pin your ears back" mode? Thus oweing to more sacks regardless of 1st and 2nd down scheme?

I too think he's a fine player for what he does. But he might as well be a Tony Tolbert or Jim Jeffcoat type player. If you dont have a Haley type to compliment them then you arent going to raise a bunch of hell in the backfield.

Greg Ellis can only wish he's as good as Tony Tolbert or Jim Jeffcoat...he's NOT and stats prove that. Tolbert and Jeffcoat played for good teams and some really poor ones, but they still made plays in the backfield and put consistant pressure on the QB. Ellis is workmanlike, and that's all....If I could put together an NFC team, he'd never even be an afterthought at DE....frankly, he wouldn't even make my NFC EAst team.

 

[Chuck 54]

This might be the lamest thread ever. I'd expect a troll to start something like this, but not a supposed Cowboys fan.

Exactly what was the point of it? To diminish Greg Ellis' ability as a defensive end? To bait another forum member into an argument, when the instigator has already made up his mind?

Honestly, I don't get it. I'm almost ashamed that I read it.

You must be the one in a poor mood today...the play of any player on the roster is a legitimate topic of discussion...we talk about Vinny every week...why should Ellis be exempt...we've discussed him before.

And yes, many of us think he's average at best....I'd love nothing more than to replace him at the same time we replace Wiley...two decent DE's would be great. Ellis is a great guy who gives effort and doesn't cheat the fan, but I wouldn't mention him in the same breath with any of the Cowboys great D-linemen of the past....He doesn't rank up there with Haley, Tolbert, Jeffcoat, TooTall, Martin, or even Larry Cole....He's just a guy, like George Andre.

 

[AdamJT13]

Funny, I didn't accuse you of saying Ellis was a great pass rusher; I just said you thought highly of him.

But you are right. No one ever claims Ellis is a great pass rusher.

Do you even know what you're arguing, or with whom you're arguing? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

If, as you admit, no one ever claims Ellis is a great pass rusher, then why did you start a thread asking people to explain why Ellis is a great pass rusher?

You and others just happens "take issue when anyone claims Ellis is weak against the pass." Forgive me, the distinction is so profound.

Of course there's a difference between being great and being weak. Are you now claiming that Ellis is a weak pass rusher? If so, I'd certainly take issue with that, as would any rational person who follows the Cowboys.

 

[silver]

Greg Ellis can only wish he's as good as Tony Tolbert or Jim Jeffcoat...he's NOT and stats prove that. Tolbert and Jeffcoat played for good teams and some really poor ones, but they still made plays in the backfield and put consistant pressure on the QB. Ellis is workmanlike, and that's all....If I could put together an NFC team, he'd never even be an afterthought at DE....frankly, he wouldn't even make my NFC EAst team.

Tolbert had Haley across from him. If you go by stats only then Haley was a horrible pass rusher since he didn't get that many sacks while he was here. Tolbert numbers jumped with the arrival of Haley.

 

[SuspectCorner]

I won't respond to this. I genuinely want you to explain to me how Greg Ellis is a great pass rusher? I'm not talking his run stopping abilities. I'm not talking about his overall value to the team. I'm not talking about his monetary value. I'm talking about his ability to rush the passer and that's all.

Please explain to me how Greg Ellis is an asset as a pass rusher. I just find it hard to believe how anyone can argue Ellis is a threat as a pass rusher when he has failed to notch double digit sacks in 7 seasons in the NFL. He has not been consistent either. He has two seasons with 3 sacks and one with 6 sacks. He does not get double teamed on a consistent basis so you won't convince me of that.

I won't respond to this.

How is Greg Ellis a threat as a pass rusher?

okay, okay.... so ellis is NOT a GREAT passrusher. so we should kick him to the curb? rushing the passer is NOT the only responsibility of a DE. they also need to tackle runners and interrupt the passing game in other ways, too. greg ellis was a pretty good college passrusher. he is a pretty good pro passrusher. but most importantly, he is a VERY well-rounded DE. he doesn't possess the speed and litany of moves that take your breath away. but his stats are MORE than decent. IF dallas can ever bookend him with a real edge-rushing DEMON, greg's sack stats will likely climb as well. there are 32 teams in the NFL. there are certainly NOT 32 great passrushing ends in the NFL. for his career to date, greg has had the misfortune of lining up with bums like ekuban and wiley. a huge DT that can DRIVE into the backfield - flushes QBs to the ends. dallas hasn't had that guy since lett was in his prime. if dallas could get ANOTHER guy with even greg's talent - the rush would be much improved. if they can land a big strong DT to line up next to glover - the rush would be much improved. if dallas can do both the rush will be daunting. and if the ultimate happens, and dallas can land the big DT and a PREMIERE passrusher - the secondary is automatically much better and dallas is on the road to REALLY contending. yeah, greg ellis is NOT a great passrusher. but he IS better than most of the DEs starting in the league.

 

[mr.jameswoods]

okay, okay.... so ellis is NOT a GREAT passrusher. so we should kick him to the curb? rushing the passer is NOT the only responsibility of a DE. they also need to tackle runners and interrupt the passing game in other ways, too. greg ellis was a pretty good college passrusher. he is a pretty good pro passrusher. but most importantly, he is a VERY well-rounded DE. he doesn't possess the speed and litany of moves that take your breath away. but his stats are MORE than decent. IF dallas can ever bookend him with a real edge-rushing DEMON, greg's sack stats will likely climb as well. there are 32 teams in the NFL. there are certainly NOT 32 great passrushing ends in the NFL. for his career to date, greg has had the misfortune of lining up with bums like ekuban and wiley. a huge DT that can DRIVE into the backfield - flushes QBs to the ends. dallas hasn't had that guy since lett was in his prime. if dallas could get ANOTHER guy with even greg's talent - the rush would be much improved. if they can land a big strong DT to line up next to glover - the rush would be much improved. if dallas can do both the rush will be daunting. and if the ultimate happens, and dallas can land the big DT and a PREMIERE passrusher - the secondary is automatically much better and dallas is on the road to REALLY contending. yeah, greg ellis is NOT a great passrusher. but he IS better than most of the DEs starting in the league.

He is a good overall DE. I would never want to get rid of him. At the same time, I don't see Ellis as a weapon. I don't brag about Greg Ellis when talking about our defense. Wouldn't it be cool to have TWO stud DE's starting that is capable of putting pressure on the QB. It may be unlikely but it would be great if we could do it.

 

[SuspectCorner]

He is a good overall DE. I would never want to get rid of him. At the same time, I don't see Ellis as a weapon. I don't brag about Greg Ellis when talking about our defense. Wouldn't it be cool to have TWO stud DE's starting that is capable of putting pressure on the QB. It may be unlikely but it would be great if we could do it.

i get where you're coming from. it would make the passrush awesome - but is it neccessary to have two stud edgerushers? greg is a fine DE in his own right. i've seen too many teams to count where they had ONE awesome edge-guy that ultimately complimented the WHOLE dang line. teams need the greg ellis types. i think he will be a great compliment to a legit sackmaster.

 

[mr.jameswoods]

Do you even know what you're arguing, or with whom you're arguing? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Why are you still here? You already said this is a lame thread. It's so painful for you to read this remember? You are in no position to question someone else's position on this thread. If you have something to say, I suggest you say it instead of pretending be above the fray. The elitist facade is getting old. You are as opinionated and human as the rest of us.

I will translate for you since the finer aspects of sarcasm seem to be beyond you. Greg Ellis fans such as yourself do not come right out and admit he is a threat as a pass rusher because that would just make you appear foolish. However, whenever someone such as myself questions his pass rushing ability, people like you get defensive. I have yet to hear fans such as yourself admit that Greg Ellis is not very good at putting pressure on the QB. I didn't start this debate today. Dbair wrote a post saying how Greg Ellis is better than Shaun Ellis, which is ridiculous. Unfortunately that post escalated into this one.

If so, I'd certainly take issue with that, as would any rational person who follows the Cowboys.

I absolutely think Greg Ellis is a weak pass rusher and if I could get a DE who could rush the passer better than Ellis, I would take him in a heart beat. I think I'm a rational fan just not a homer. I like Ellis. He is a nice guy and he puts forth great effort, but his fine effort and boy scout image don't threaten any offense.

If, as you admit, no one ever claims Ellis is a great pass rusher, then why did you start a thread asking people to explain why Ellis is a great pass rusher?

I did ask the Ellis fans this question with sincerity. However, when they chose to respond with personal insults as opposed to a response supported by statistical evidenc and facts, I decided to get involved.

 

[SuspectCorner]

Here is the thing though. Shaun Ellis is not as good as John Abraham. However, I don't think Greg Ellis is even as good as Shaun Ellis and many #2 guys like him.

john abraham would be an awesome acquisition. but the problem is, once a team develops a great passrushing end - they are generally loathe to lose him unless: they are cap strapped, they have more than one of these guys, age or injury concerns, or the player has become a distraction to the team. my gut tells me that shaun ellis and greg ellis would be a daunting tandem. but ya just never know for sure how the chemistry will work out. shaun has played with a john abraham type. greg never has. maybe the reason shaun looks better to you - is in fact john abraham.

 

[mr.jameswoods]

john abraham would be an awesome acquisition. but the problem is, once a team develops a great passrushing end - they are generally loathe to lose him unless: they are cap strapped, they have more than one of these guys, age or injury concerns, or the player has become a distraction to the team. my gut tells me that shaun ellis and greg ellis would be a daunting tandem. but ya just never know for sure how the chemistry will work out. shaun has played with a john abraham type. greg never has. maybe the reason shaun looks better to you - is in fact john abraham.

People have made that argument before but I don't buy it. And that's because there are many DE's in the league that are getting their sacks without the presence of great teammates on their respective defensive line. Michael Strahan is one example. Leonard Little is another example. There are just too many examples of DE's in the league that have compiled a lot of stats without great teammates. And besides, even if they have great teammates, how does that help a DE beat his tackle? You can have Strahan on the other side, but if you can't beat the right tackle on your side, that isn't Strahan's fault.

 

[SuspectCorner]

People have made that argument before but I don't buy it. And that's because there are many DE's in the league that are getting their sacks without the presence of great teammates on their respective defensive line. Michael Strahan is one example. Leonard Little is another example. There are just too many examples of DE's in the league that have compiled a lot of stats without great teammates. And besides, even if they have great teammates, how does that help a DE beat his tackle? You can have Strahan on the other side, but if you can't beat the right tackle on your side, that isn't Strahan's fault.

how many times have you seen a QB flee from the initial penetration only to end up in the arms of another rusher? for me... oh... about 37,589 times.

 

[mr.jameswoods]

how many times have you seen a QB flee from the initial penetration only to end up in the arms of another rusher? for me... oh... about 37,589 times.

I have seen it happen this year when Glover penetrates the line which helps Ellis on occassion but it's not going to give someone 12.5 sacks in a season. I think we need to start holding players responsible for their stats instead of looking for scapegoats.

 

[mr.jameswoods]

Tolbert had Haley across from him. If you go by stats only then Haley was a horrible pass rusher since he didn't get that many sacks while he was here. Tolbert numbers jumped with the arrival of Haley.

Haley had 12.5 sacks in 1994 and 10.5 sacks in 1995 playing for us.

 

[Ken]

Haley had 12.5 sacks in 1994 and 10.5 sacks in 1995 playing for us.

And what will you say when Ellis ends this season with 10 to 12?

Look, Ellis isn't a great pass rusher, but he is our best by a wide margin. He is also our best defensive player and most consistant.

You can bag on him all you want about his sack numbers, but sacks are overated. What about the dozens of times a qb is rushed or hit as he throws. Those are just as important. Ellis has had 3-4 every game this year.

Let's not forget about his 2nd year where he was on his way to 10 sacks only suffer that horrific broken leg late in the season. Let us also not forget the steel rod that was inserted into his shin, as well as the golf ball sized calcification deposit on his shin. His third year he clearly was not 100 percent. That would explain on of his 3 sack years.

I'm with Adam though, this is silly.

 

[mr.jameswoods]

And what will you say when Ellis ends this season with 10 to 12?

Look, Ellis isn't a great pass rusher, but he is our best by a wide margin. He is also our best defensive player and most consistant.

You can bag on him all you want about his sack numbers, but sacks are overated. What about the dozens of times a qb is rushed or hit as he throws. Those are just as important. Ellis has had 3-4 every game this year.

Let's not forget about his 2nd year where he was on his way to 10 sacks only suffer that horrific broken leg late in the season. Let us also not forget the steel rod that was inserted into his shin, as well as the golf ball sized calcification deposit on his shin. His third year he clearly was not 100 percent. That would explain on of his 3 sack years.

I'm with Adam though, this is silly.

I will give Ellis his props but what will you do if he fails to get it? And I agree with you about the sad injury he sufferred during his second year but injuries are a part of the game. Think of all the failed top 10 picks like Kijana Carter and Andrew Wadsworth who fell to injury. It doesn't change the fact that their game was hampered by their injuries however tragic it may have been.

I haven't seen Ellis put the type of pressure on a QB like you mentioned. I think Glover is still our best pass rusher. He is the only guy that I see who creates any kind of havoc on the DL.

I agree this thread is silly but then one make that argument for this entire forum. We discuss every other subject related to the Cowboys. i don't see why Ellis should be hands off simply because he is a DE and not a rookie QB.

 

[Dale]

I will give Ellis his props but what will you do if he fails to get it? And I agree with you about the sad injury he sufferred during his second year but injuries are a part of the game. Think of all the failed top 10 picks like Kijana Carter and Andrew Wadsworth who fell to injury. It doesn't change the fact that their game was hampered by their injuries however tragic it may have been.

I haven't seen Ellis put the type of pressure on a QB like you mentioned. I think Glover is still our best pass rusher. He is the only guy that I see who creates any kind of havoc on the DL.

I agree this thread is silly but then one make that argument for this entire forum. We discuss every other subject related to the Cowboys. i don't see why Ellis should be hands off simply because he is a DE and not a rookie QB.

James, to play devil's advocate with you...if Glover is our most disruptive defensive linemen, why do the stats not reflect that type of performance? I realize defensive tackles rarely gather the sort of sack numbers that ends get, but Glover is having a rather quiet season based on his performance (in sacks) in years past.

 

[mr.jameswoods]

James, to play devil's advocate with you...if Glover is our most disruptive defensive linemen, why do the stats not reflect that type of performance? I realize defensive tackles rarely gather the sort of sack numbers that ends get, but Glover is having a rather quiet season based on his performance (in sacks) in years past.

Fair enough because Glover has reached the sacred pinnacle of double digit sacks before and he is a disruptive force. I see it when I watch the Cowboys on Sunday and so does the media, coaches and fans. I don't think Glover makes the Pro Bowl out of pity. I think fans are intelligent enough to see that this guy just drives lineman back and creates havoc when necessary.

BUT

I can concede that Greg Ellis is the best pass rusher on our team this year. The stats certainly warrant that. I don't personally believe it based on what I'm seeing on Sunday but maybe my eyes are fooling me. You can at least make an intelligent case suggesting Ellis is better than Glover this year so I can't completely disavow such a proposition. But based on what I see on Sundays, Ellis is very average in his pursuit of the QB. He doesn't have a lot of moves and isn't very quick when he is held up. It seems like the sacks he does get are coverage sacks or ones due to Glover's penetration on occasion. Rarely if ever do you see Ellis just beat his man one on one the way Charles Haley used to for example.

 

[Dale]

Fair enough because Glover has reached the sacred pinnacle of double digit sacks before and he is a disruptive force. I see it when I watch the Cowboys on Sunday and so does the media, coaches and fans. I don't think Glover makes the Pro Bowl out of pity. I think fans are intelligent enough to see that this guy just drives lineman back and creates havoc when necessary.

BUT

I can concede that Greg Ellis is the best pass rusher on our team this year. The stats certainly warrant that. I don't personally believe it based on what I'm seeing on Sunday but maybe my eyes are fooling me. You can at least make an intelligent case suggesting Ellis is better than Glover this year so I can't completely disavow such a proposition. But based on what I see on Sundays, Ellis is very average in his pursuit of the QB. He doesn't have a lot of moves and isn't very quick when he is held up. It seems like the sacks he does get are coverage sacks or ones due to Glover's penetration on occasion. Rarely if ever do you see Ellis just beat his man one on one the way Charles Haley used to for example.

Oh I agree that Ellis isn't a pass rushing "force." It's as if he's a better run defender than pass rusher, which is probably why Zimmer likes him so much. But I think some amount of skill is needed to get 8 sacks, as he has now done the last two seasons. It's amazing the gap between Ellis' number of sacks and the Cowboys' next sack leader at the defensive end position. But I'd agree that speaks more to the level of ineptitude of Wiley and the likes than it does Ellis' skill.

 

[Dale]

Greg Ellis can only wish he's as good as Tony Tolbert or Jim Jeffcoat...he's NOT and stats prove that. Tolbert and Jeffcoat played for good teams and some really poor ones, but they still made plays in the backfield and put consistant pressure on the QB. Ellis is workmanlike, and that's all....If I could put together an NFC team, he'd never even be an afterthought at DE....frankly, he wouldn't even make my NFC EAst team.

I think you might be overrating Tolbert a tad. I think Ellis could well be deemed a "poor man's" Tony Tolbert when looking at their respective careers.

In nine seasons, Tolbert had 59 sacks (6.5 per year). In seven seasons, Ellis has 43 sacks (6.1 per year). Tolbert was only a one-time Pro Bowler, in 1996 when he exceeded 10 sacks for the only time in his career. In fact, other than that season, 8.5 sacks was Tolbert's career high.

 

[Zman5]

He is a good overall DE. I would never want to get rid of him. At the same time, I don't see Ellis as a weapon. I don't brag about Greg Ellis when talking about our defense. Wouldn't it be cool to have TWO stud DE's starting that is capable of putting pressure on the QB. It may be unlikely but it would be great if we could do it.

I would wrather have four 7-8 sack guys then 2 12-14 sack guys. In another word, I much wrather have four Greg Ellises then 2 Jevone Kearses.

Why? Well the obvious is that if one of two studs get injured, you are screwed. Second is, with FA it's easier to replace the 7-8 sack guys.


I think thats better way to spend your cap dollars and in the long run, you get better production. New England is a perfect example. They don't have any "super star" type of guys but what they have is bunch of above average players.