How Refs can influence a game

[RonnieT24]

Yeah... except we've been hearing that for about 10 years now, and his past 10 years were better than his first.

It's just a matter of time no pun intended... However with as much as the league coddles him he might play until he's 50.

 

[RonnieT24]

No, he catches it - or at least is able to mak a play on it - before it lands 5 yards out of bounds.

Have you, like, ever watched football before? A ball landing 5 yards out of bounds is nothing. If a ball lands a mere 5 yards out of bounds, that means it was certainly at a catchable height while it was in bounds.

I have not only watched football before but I have caught passes in the end zone on many occasions. I also know that balls that land that far out of bounds are not catchable. Unless you have a 40+ inch vertical. That ball was still in line with the crossbar level as it crosses the back line of the end zone. There is a very short list of people who could go up and get that ball. And I don't think Mike Evans is on that list. When he chose to go around Mathieu he lost any chance he had of catching that ball. Brady threw to the spot he was supposed to get to while Mathieu beat him to the spot and forced him to redirect. Mathieu's bodied him up inside the 5 yard area and disrupted the timing. People pointing out that Matheiu impeded his progress forget that there is no rule that says a defender has to get out of a receiver's way and let him run his route. If the defender establishes position then that spot on the field is his.

 

[Ghost12]

I have not only watched football before but I have caught passes in the end zone on many occasions. I also know that balls that land that far out of bounds are not catchable.

lololol..! You have GOT to be kidding me. We’re talking about the NFL here, not you out playing ball with your buddies.

5 yards out of bounds is *nothing*. Apparently you don’t realize that most WRs in the League can easily get 3+ yards (9+ feet) in the air with their hands (I’m sure several receivers can go even higher but I am using a very conservative estimate).

I wonder what the physics are like on your planet where a ball is so high it goes over a WR’s hands 3 yards in the air, but lands out of bounds a mere 5 yards away. And do keep in mind that NFL QB’s easily tip 50 MPH with their passes. You would literally have to shot put the ball just to do that.

P.S. This wasn’t a one score game. Kansas City got whupped on both sides of the ball all night long. You look ridiculous blaming the referees.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Crying about the refs with Brady never gets old. It's all y'all can hold onto at this point. It's hilarious to read. It's always fixed and refs fault when the narrative is not what you want. Boo hoo.

What narrative do you want? To see the slurp-fest of the Chiefs or the slurp-fest of Brady? There was no narrative I'd want. I'm not a fan of either team. Unbiased like the Brady Stans.....

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Years ago I used to not believe stuff like this. Then the facts started piling up. Something is definitely fishy in the state of Denmark.

Any disbeliever needs to go get a complete game tape of the NE/JAX champ game back in 17. Keep in mind that the JAX D had 5 penalties against them the entire season. And then 6-7 in one game. It was sick. Poor Bortles.

Same goes for me man...I use to not believe in it but I can't help what my eyes see.

 

[INCowboysFan]

I have not only watched football before but I have caught passes in the end zone on many occasions. I also know that balls that land that far out of bounds are not catchable. Unless you have a 40+ inch vertical. That ball was still in line with the crossbar level as it crosses the back line of the end zone. There is a very short list of people who could go up and get that ball. And I don't think Mike Evans is on that list. When he chose to go around Mathieu he lost any chance he had of catching that ball. Brady threw to the spot he was supposed to get to while Mathieu beat him to the spot and forced him to redirect. Mathieu's bodied him up inside the 5 yard area and disrupted the timing. People pointing out that Matheiu impeded his progress forget that there is no rule that says a defender has to get out of a receiver's way and let him run his route. If the defender establishes position then that spot on the field is his.

Sorry, @RonnieT24 you are wrong here. See the bolded first sentence and letters A and E below. Mathieu was guilty of both.

Here’s how the NFL defines pass interference, according to the rulebook:
It is pass interference by either team when any act by a player more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage significantly hinders an eligible player’s opportunity to catch the ball. Pass interference can only occur when a forward pass is thrown from behind the line of scrimmage, regardless of whether the pass is legal or illegal, or whether it crosses the line.

Defensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is thrown until the ball is touched. See Article 2 for prohibited acts while the ball is in the air. Offensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is snapped until the ball is touched. See Article 2 for prohibited acts while the ball is in the air and Article 4 for prohibited acts prior to the pass.

What are players NOT allowed to do after the ball is thrown?
Via the NFL rulebook:

• (a) Contact by a player who is not playing the ball that restricts the opponent’s opportunity to make the catch;
• (b) Playing through the back of an opponent in an attempt to make a play on the ball;
• (c) Grabbing an opponent’s arm(s) in such a manner that restricts his opportunity to catch a pass;
• (d) Extending an arm across the body of an opponent, thus restricting his ability to catch a pass, and regardless of whether the
  player committing such act is playing the ball;
• (e) Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball;
• (f) Hooking an opponent in an attempt to get to the ball in such a manner that it causes the opponent’s body to turn prior to the
  ball arriving; or
• (g) Initiating contact with an opponent by shoving or pushing off, thus creating separation.

 

[Doomsday101]

The Bucs won the SB outright, gotta give them credit overall. But, there is no denying that some of the penalties against the Chiefs in the first half should have been non-calls.

After years of watching referee penalty abuse across the league, I have to wonder if that does not affect the morale of a team during the game. In this SB the Chiefs had something like an 8-1 penalty disparity in the first half. They must have felt at halftime that the refs were against them.

In my opinion referees can and do affect the morale of a team to the point they feel the game is out of their hands. When bad-non calls put you way behind, it is very hard to come back from.

KC secondary tends to grab and hold, they did it in the AFC championship game and got away with it. They did the same vs TB and did not get away with it. As for the refs frankly I don't think they cares who wins, they are trying to do a job.

 

[RonnieT24]

lololol..! You have GOT to be kidding me. We’re talking about the NFL here, not you out playing ball with your buddies.

5 yards out of bounds is *nothing*. Apparently you don’t realize that most WRs in the League can easily get 3+ yards (9+ feet) in the air with their hands (I’m sure several receivers can go even higher but I am using a very conservative estimate).

I wonder what the physics are like on your planet where a ball is so high it goes over a WR’s hands 3 yards in the air, but lands out of bounds a mere 5 yards away. And do keep in mind that NFL QB’s easily tip 50 MPH with their passes. You would literally have to shot put the ball just to do that.

P.S. This wasn’t a one score game. Kansas City got whupped on both sides of the ball all night long. You look ridiculous blaming the referees.

LOL.. small minded of you to assume that I was talking about sandlot games with my buddies.. which I did play plenty of.. but I also played high school and college ball. Even if I hadn't, 5 yards out of bounds is 15 feet. Even Harold Carmichael wasn't reaching out 15 feet and still keeping his feet inbounds. The ball was never catchable and the contact between players was initiated by the receiver attempting to run through a defender who had beaten him to the spot and established position. On replay you can see the ball pass to the right of the crossbar maybe a foot above it. Google tells me the crossbar is 10 feet high. So in order for Evans to pull that ball in he has to elevate high enough to dunk a basketball and then get both feet down with a defender underneath him as Mathieu was. A savvy defender like Mathieu simply bodies him out of bounds the instant his hands touch the ball. Yes most defenders make the mistake of trying to jump with the receiver to break up the pass. But Mathieu was giving up 7-8 inches to Evans.. he wasn't about to waste time trying to jump with him. He simply needed to stay on his hip and not let him come down in the green. Mind you Evans was not running a crossing route. He was trying to get behind Mathieu to the back of the end zone on what amounted to a skinny post. His momentum was upfield so if he did go up for that ball he would have been carried out of bounds anyway. Oh and before that call the score was 14-6. As in an 8 point difference.. which for the math impaired is um.. one score. If they hold them to a FG it's 17-6 at half instead of 21-6. It had a huge impact on how the second half would play out. Down 11 KC could still at least try to balance their offense and the Bucs have to at least try and play it honest. The FG to start the second half would have cut it to 17-9.. again.. a one score game.. Like I said, that call and the one before it changed the game. Your unwillingness to acknowledge that simple fact doesn't alter that fact one iota. Mind you I am not saying KC would have won the game without those calls.. What I am telling you is that the 7 to 1 penalty differential in the first half robbed them of any opportunity to do so. It rendered their DBs unable to be the least bit aggressive in how they played while Tampa was able to mug the KC receivers with no consequences. I root for the Cowboys and honestly could not have cared less about which team won the game.. but the competitor in me wants to see a good evenly officiated game. The refs stole that from me.. the game was neither good nor evenly officiated. So I'm mad at them.. I counted three times Mahomes was whacked upside the head without drawing a flag. Think the Chiefs would have gotten away with even farting in Brady's general vicinity without a flag being thrown?

 

[RonnieT24]

Sorry, @RonnieT24 you are wrong here. See the bolded first sentence and letters A and E below. Mathieu was guilty of both.

Here’s how the NFL defines pass interference, according to the rulebook:
It is pass interference by either team when any act by a player more than one yard beyond the line of scrimmage significantly hinders an eligible player’s opportunity to catch the ball. Pass interference can only occur when a forward pass is thrown from behind the line of scrimmage, regardless of whether the pass is legal or illegal, or whether it crosses the line.

Defensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is thrown until the ball is touched. See Article 2 for prohibited acts while the ball is in the air. Offensive pass interference rules apply from the time the ball is snapped until the ball is touched. See Article 2 for prohibited acts while the ball is in the air and Article 4 for prohibited acts prior to the pass.

What are players NOT allowed to do after the ball is thrown?
Via the NFL rulebook:

• (a) Contact by a player who is not playing the ball that restricts the opponent’s opportunity to make the catch;
• (b) Playing through the back of an opponent in an attempt to make a play on the ball;
• (c) Grabbing an opponent’s arm(s) in such a manner that restricts his opportunity to catch a pass;
• (d) Extending an arm across the body of an opponent, thus restricting his ability to catch a pass, and regardless of whether the
  player committing such act is playing the ball;
• (e) Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball;
• (f) Hooking an opponent in an attempt to get to the ball in such a manner that it causes the opponent’s body to turn prior to the
  ball arriving; or
• (g) Initiating contact with an opponent by shoving or pushing off, thus creating separation.

There are two problems with your interpretation here. One Mathieu absolutely turns to play the ball.. Two when the two collide at about the 2 yard line it is Evans who initiates the contact not Mathieu. He attempts to set Mathieu up by starting outside and is supposed to cut across his face. But Mathieu doesn't bite on the outside move so Evans has to work either through him or around him to get back on his route. He chooses to go around him which is why he had no chance to get to the ball. If he takes his route straight up inside it's an easy pitch and catch as Mathieu probably cannot go through him to break up the pass. The attempt to set the route up by starting outside and then having Mathieu not bite is what messed up the play. Mathieu had position and turned to play the ball within a half second after it was thrown. He is looking into the backfield as the ball is thrown and turns his head around when he sees Brady let it fly and runs with Evans with them both looking up for the ball until they both give up on it seeing where the ball hand flown. I stand by my assertion that by establishing inside position Mathieu played it perfectly. The defender is not required to get out of the receiver's way to let him catch the ball. The article you are pointing to only applies when a defender comes running across the field and makes contact before the ball arrives. They are allowed to make body contact while running with the receiver as long as they are looking at the ball a dozen times a game. Watch defenders play the Cowboys receivers if you want to see examples of this phenomenon.

 

[kskboys]

Same goes for me man...I use to not believe in it but I can't help what my eyes see.

The NO noncall was just the whipped topping on the pie. At this point, if someone doesn't see the bias on the ref's calls, they just don't want to see it.

 

[kskboys]

LOL.. small minded of you to assume that I was talking about sandlot games with my buddies.. which I did play plenty of.. but I also played high school and college ball. Even if I hadn't, 5 yards out of bounds is 15 feet. Even Harold Carmichael wasn't reaching out 15 feet and still keeping his feet inbounds. The ball was never catchable and the contact between players was initiated by the receiver attempting to run through a defender who had beaten him to the spot and established position. On replay you can see the ball pass to the right of the crossbar maybe a foot above it. Google tells me the crossbar is 10 feet high. So in order for Evans to pull that ball in he has to elevate high enough to dunk a basketball and then get both feet down with a defender underneath him as Mathieu was. A savvy defender like Mathieu simply bodies him out of bounds the instant his hands touch the ball. Yes most defenders make the mistake of trying to jump with the receiver to break up the pass. But Mathieu was giving up 7-8 inches to Evans.. he wasn't about to waste time trying to jump with him. He simply needed to stay on his hip and not let him come down in the green. Mind you Evans was not running a crossing route. He was trying to get behind Mathieu to the back of the end zone on what amounted to a skinny post. His momentum was upfield so if he did go up for that ball he would have been carried out of bounds anyway. Oh and before that call the score was 14-6. As in an 8 point difference.. which for the math impaired is um.. one score. If they hold them to a FG it's 17-6 at half instead of 21-6. It had a huge impact on how the second half would play out. Down 11 KC could still at least try to balance their offense and the Bucs have to at least try and play it honest. The FG to start the second half would have cut it to 17-9.. again.. a one score game.. Like I said, that call and the one before it changed the game. Your unwillingness to acknowledge that simple fact doesn't alter that fact one iota. Mind you I am not saying KC would have won the game without those calls.. What I am telling you is that the 7 to 1 penalty differential in the first half robbed them of any opportunity to do so. It rendered their DBs unable to be the least bit aggressive in how they played while Tampa was able to mug the KC receivers with no consequences. I root for the Cowboys and honestly could not have cared less about which team won the game.. but the competitor in me wants to see a good evenly officiated game. The refs stole that from me.. the game was neither good nor evenly officiated. So I'm mad at them.. I counted three times Mahomes was whacked upside the head without drawing a flag. Think the Chiefs would have gotten away with even farting in Brady's general vicinity without a flag being thrown?

Absolutely awesome stuff.

You are putting into words what I saw. As you said, TB outplayed them and prolly would've won anyway, but the refs made sure of it.

 

[Ghost12]

The ball was never catchable and the contact between players was initiated by the receiver attempting to run through a defender who had beaten him to the spot and established position. On replay you can see the ball pass to the right of the crossbar maybe a foot above it. Google tells me the crossbar is 10 feet high. So in order for Evans to pull that ball in he has to elevate high enough to dunk a basketball and then get both feet down with a defender underneath him as Mathieu was.

And anyone who watches football has seen that sort of thing happen before. No, not with you and your buddies playing in the backyard, but most certainly at the professional level.

 

[Jake]

The Bucs won the SB outright, gotta give them credit overall. But, there is no denying that some of the penalties against the Chiefs in the first half should have been non-calls.

After years of watching referee penalty abuse across the league, I have to wonder if that does not affect the morale of a team during the game. In this SB the Chiefs had something like an 8-1 penalty disparity in the first half. They must have felt at halftime that the refs were against them.

In my opinion referees can and do affect the morale of a team to the point they feel the game is out of their hands. When bad-non calls put you way behind, it is very hard to come back from.

Refs make mistakes just like coaches and players make mistakes. I'm glad to see you left the tinfoil hat off.

Some fans see every bad call as an intentional attempt to screw a team.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

Watch the first Evans play again. The DB's left foot clearly made contact with Evans left foot at :37 in the clip. I thought this was incidental and shouldn't have been called.

The second one, Mathieu clearly impeded him on his route. no doubt PI

Hard to tell from the side if the feet made contact, a view from directly behind or in front would have been better. But I think what made the ref throw the flag was the db's hand reaching out, after which the receiver immediately fell down. Now the receiver could have just over-strode and fell, making the reach out APPEAR to be the cause of the receiver's fall.

But what have we (or at least myself) heard from coaches in that situation? "Don't let the receiver get behind you"

Chiefs failed at that several times at critical junctures during the game. And the offsides penalty was inexusable, all the defender has to do is look down the line of scrimmage, you can tell if you're looking directly down the line or at a slight angle backwards, and if there's any doubt move back a few inches. The offsides was 100% the fault of the Chiefs' player...

 

[kskboys]

It was even until they started calling phantom pi/holding calls in favor of the Bucs. Bucs might have won anyways theres just no need for bs calls.

They've gotten away w/ it for so long, not sure they can even quit any more. Far too many people simply dismiss, most likely because they don't want to believe.

 

[sean10mm]

The Chiefs D was super grabby all year and dared the refs to call it all year, and the refs were looking for it.

Play cheap long enough and it will bite you one way or the other.

 

[Hadenough]

The Bucs won the SB outright, gotta give them credit overall. But, there is no denying that some of the penalties against the Chiefs in the first half should have been non-calls.

After years of watching referee penalty abuse across the league, I have to wonder if that does not affect the morale of a team during the game. In this SB the Chiefs had something like an 8-1 penalty disparity in the first half. They must have felt at halftime that the refs were against them.

In my opinion referees can and do affect the morale of a team to the point they feel the game is out of their hands. When bad-non calls put you way behind, it is very hard to come back from.

I dont care what anyone says, refs can indirectly control the game by taking a teams momentum away or giving a team momentum. Not mention making a bad call outright to change the outcome. That call a few years ago in the Saints Rams game was evidence of that. My problem with the Refs is they are never held accountable or questioned. Its like they are untouchable and their word stands. The bucs have a very good defense and may of won the game anyways but the refs calls made sure of that. Looking back I get the feeling that the commish didnt want the chiefs to win that game because of the publicity crap it would of brought to the NFL with that car accident that Reids son was in while drinking.

 

[kskboys]

I dont care what anyone says, refs can indirectly control the game by taking a teams momentum away or giving a team momentum. Not mention making a bad call outright to change the outcome. That call a few years ago in the Saints Rams game was evidence of that. My problem with the Refs is they are never held accountable or questioned. Its like they are untouchable and their word stands. The bucs have a very good defense and may of won the game anyways but the refs calls made sure of that. Looking back I get the feeling that the commish didnt want the chiefs to win that game because of the publicity crap it would of brought to the NFL with that car accident that Reids son was in while drinking.

Refs can call one key penalty and change the outcome. And they do. Man, you have to ignore a mountain of evidence to not see it.

 

[atlantacowboy]

The Bucs won the SB outright, gotta give them credit overall. But, there is no denying that some of the penalties against the Chiefs in the first half should have been non-calls.

After years of watching referee penalty abuse across the league, I have to wonder if that does not affect the morale of a team during the game. In this SB the Chiefs had something like an 8-1 penalty disparity in the first half. They must have felt at halftime that the refs were against them.

In my opinion referees can and do affect the morale of a team to the point they feel the game is out of their hands. When bad-non calls put you way behind, it is very hard to come back from.

Show me an NFL game where the losing team doesn't have some piece of officiating to blame. The officials influence every game b/c they could call holding on every play, but they call it selectively and its always been that way. KC played a brainless defense that didn't seem to learn from its mistakes. When the officials sent a loud and clear message that they were going to be protecting the wrs and that holding and grabbing was going to get called, they should have taken the hint.

 

[Mr_437]

I only watch a lil bit of the game, but after I saw those phantom PI penalties I stopped watching. Also, I've many ppl say the NFL is not what most fans think it really is.