How Special is Ezekiel?

[cern]

I think zeke's the best rb in the game. But that has nothing to do with how difficult it will be to sign him.

 

[CT Dal Fan]

Just about every player, coach, announcer, publication and fan says that Elliott is an exceptional RB. He is routinely listed as one of the top backs in the game and is a force on the field every time he plays.

They know how great he is. To football people, it is clear as day.

As for myself, as a long time fan of the sport and as a guy who played the game, it’s easy to see that Elliott’s exceptional ability changes the game when he lines up behind the QB. His toughness and his physical nature wears a defense out by the second half. In a sport where toughness, heart and courage are a huge part of the game, there in no stat, that can measure what he means to his team. No conventional stat, nor a newly devised one, can tell you how beaten up a Safety is in the 4th quarter after dealing with Ezekiel for three quarters.

Jimmy Johnson said that people shouldn’t think that just because a guy is a pro football player, he likes the contact. He said there are plenty of guys who shy away from the physical stuff. He said some don’t mind the contact, some love it, and some hate it. The few guys, Jimmy said, who love the contact are the guys you want on your team. Elliott loves the contact. It shows. And a lot of the guys who have to tackle him, don’t. He wears on those guys, and it shapes games.

That difference in toughness and how it changes the game can’t be measured... but it is there.

The importance a defense puts on stopping Zeke. How much the defenders work to limit him while paying less attention to other players in the passing game. How much a defender starts shying away from the constant bludgeoning he’s receiving at the hands of Elliott and how that effects his ability to be ready for the sharp cuts Zeke makes in the secondary... these are things that aren’t measured by any stat. But they are things that effect the game and effect the outcome of the game to a large degree.

Elliott is a huge influence on the game and his value certainly can’t be measured by any numbers.

The best description of Zeke I have read on this forum. Well said.

Good running backs are all over the place. Zeke isn't just good. Those "good" guys are players like Marlon Mack and Jordan Howard. Special ones are rare, and Elliott is one of those guys. If he can keep his head on straight this is a generational guy; an Adrian Peterson, a Ladainian Tomlinson, a Curtis Martin- type back.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Yards per route run among RBs:

2016: 24th

2017: Did not qualify due to suspension

2018: 19th

As if the information wasn't damning enough. This research was published today.

It should be noted this didn't shine a favorable light on Barkley either. But it goes to highlight a dump off to Zeke or Saquan for 12 yards on 3rd and 15 looks great in their statistical profile but wasn't helping the team win.

Still seeing Dallas and Zeke (he caught 77 balls remind you) 2nd to last only over the hapless Cardinals offense on success in throwing to the RB doesn't exactly scream transcendence.

Source: https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...-your-receiving-value-can-be-easily-replaced/

 

[Kaiser]

There is no excuse for reading the OP and just posting “lol no wrong”

Right, the proper way to read the OP is this:

"Should I click on this thread, this guy is never going to get over his Zeke bashing"

**scroll down**

**scroll down**

"Jeez, he never will. And he is trying to use PFF stats, that's comical"

**scroll down**

**scroll down**

"This isn't apples to oranges, this is apples to dumptrucks"

**scroll down**

**scroll down**

"Who pulled these stat categories out of their azz?"

**scroll down**

**scroll down**

"What time is it, I was going to go to the gym at 4....."

 

[Kaiser]

Good running backs are all over the place. Zeke isn't just good. Those "good" guys are players like Marlon Mack and Jordan Howard. Special ones are rare, and Elliott is one of those guys. If he can keep his head on straight this is a generational guy; an Adrian Peterson, a Ladainian Tomlinson, a Curtis Martin- type back.

Great post. I'm splitting hairs saying it but I would say Zeke is elite but not a generational back. He certainly has the potential to be and that is why the team will pay him well, but I wouldn't set the market with him because their are still concerns with the guy and he hasn't established himself at that Ladainian Tomlinson level yet.

But the main thing is you can't let a guy that like that get away, or you could be the Chargers letting Drew Brees walk all over again - except you won't have a rookie Philip Rivers replacing him. You can get passable production from the DMC and Joseph Randle types, but that is worlds apart from replacing an elite player like Zeke.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Great post. I'm splitting hairs saying it but I would say Zeke is elite but not a generational back. He certainly has the potential to be and that is why the team will pay him well, but I wouldn't set the market with him because their are still concerns with the guy and he hasn't established himself at that Ladainian Tomlinson level yet.

But the main thing is you can't let a guy that like that get away, or you could be the Chargers letting Drew Brees walk all over again - except you won't have a rookie Philip Rivers replacing him. You can get passable production from the DMC and Joseph Randle types, but that is worlds apart from replacing an elite player like Zeke.

What makes Zeke elite? Outside of total yards what can we point to?

That's the point. We bestow these labels and never change them.

Is he elite because he was the 4rh pick? Because he gets a ton of carries?

Honestly that's all you can point to at this point. If we traded him to a bad team with a bad line would we still think of him the same?

What proof can you offer?

 

[Jake]

If we traded him (Zeke) to a bad team with a bad line would we still think of him the same?

What proof can you offer?

Why is anyone obligated to refute your imaginary theory when you can't offer any "proof" to support it?

 

[kskboys]

If you look at the top 20 RBs by yardage last year there are only two (AD and Lamar Miller) that have played more than 5 seasons. When get to 24th you have Doug Martin but he only averages 10 starts a year over his 7 year career. Frank Gore is 25th and he has been productive for a long time (like AD) but that is the exception and not the rule.

I just googled "average RB career" and it say its less than 3 years, but I discount that because it has to include the Darius Jackson and Rod Smith types.

That is correct, it's inaccurate.

We're talking about career length, not years in the top 10. AP, McCoy, Gore, Lynch, Ingram, Latavius Murray, CJ Anderson, Dion Lewis, Spencer Ware, Giovanni Bernard. There are many many RB's who have been in the league 5+ years.

 

[kskboys]

I have no idea what you're arguing. Did you miss the part where I said, "he hasn't been the same after the injury?" I said that Johnson was terrific pre-injury. I'm not arguing about last year, except to note that the Arizona offense was a complete disaster last year and nobody was going to have success, which means that it's difficult to know how much Johnson may be bouncing back post-injury.

I don't know why you think ypc for receiving means less than ypc for rushing; I think the exact opposite.

Zeke caught a lot of passes last year, but he wasn't a "major factor in the passing game" in the sense of being a weapon they deployed. The vast majority of those passes were dumpoffs, the play of last resort; that's why the ypc was so low. He wasn't catching passes downfield or catching and running for first downs. Only 29% of his receptions went for 1st downs. Kamara and McCaffrey were at 38%, Johnson and Gurley at 44%: those are players who are major factors in the passing game.

I'm arguing that he was never terrific and he gets major love for mostly being decent.

 

[JD_KaPow]

I'm arguing that he was never terrific and he gets major love for mostly being decent.

Well then make the argument. The only argument you've made so far was about last season.

In 2016, he ran for 1240 yards (at a 4.2 ypc) and 16 TDs, and added in 80 catches for 879 yards (11.0 ypc!) and another 4 TDs. He led the league in yards from scrimmage and touchdowns. Explain to me why that's only decent. He had 19 more touches than Zeke that year (and Zeke was terrific that year) for 124 more yards. So he was Zeke plus 4 TDs plus 19 more touches with a 6.5 ypc on them.

The next year, when he was hurt, their RBs averaged 3.4 ypc.

 

[kskboys]

Well then make the argument. The only argument you've made so far was about last season.

In 2016, he ran for 1240 yards (at a 4.2 ypc) and 16 TDs, and added in 80 catches for 879 yards (11.0 ypc!) and another 4 TDs. He led the league in yards from scrimmage and touchdowns. Explain to me why that's only decent. He had 19 more touches than Zeke that year (and Zeke was terrific that year) for 124 more yards. So he was Zeke plus 4 TDs plus 19 more touches with a 6.5 ypc on them.

The next year, when he was hurt, their RBs averaged 3.4 ypc.

I have been making the argument. You didn't understand.

Aside from his rook year at 4.6, he's had a subpar YPC, even in his 2nd year when Palmer was throwing for a ton of yards.

4.2 YPC is pedestrian. It's OK, not great.

I don't rate players by TD's and consider it a very poor way to rate them. Way too much depends on scheme and usage and such.

 

[Beast_from_East]

Well this holdout will prove one side right and one side wrong, that is the good thing about it.

If Zeke is nothing special like the OP and a handful of his disciples believe, then we should have no problem plugging in another RB and not missing a beat.

However...…….if Zeke is truly special and cant be replaced very easily, then it will show on the field, on the scoreboard, and on the divisional standings.

So there really is no need to argue anymore, we are fixing to see which side is correct.

 

[Buzzbait]

I don't think Zeke is used as wisely as he could be, but then that has been a Garrett fault for a long time, not using players to their best advantage. I hope Kellen Moore does something to change that.

 

[TheSkaven]

He’s a great back and very immature but he’s young. In our offense, we don’t have an offense without a back of his status. We can’t score points when he’s in the game. What are we gonna do when he’s not? Asking for a friend.

Indeed. Just imagine the maturity level once he has $30 million+ dollars.

He’s a special back but in today’s NFL running backs are simply expendable. It’s the reason that their value has steadily dropped monetarily over the last decade.

Teams are defined by their offensive and defensive lines and their quarterback. Next in line in importance is the secondary and wide receivers. Remember, the Cowboys went 3-3 without Zeke, and the loss of Tyron Smith was the contributing factor in those 3 losses.

 

[Starforever]

I'm arguing that Zeke hasn't been more efficient than a lot of RBs.

Maybe he isn't as good as we thought?

Maybe sharing the workload means each back in the committee is able to have increased efficiency?

Maybe we should consider the implications here?

Perhaps this is why even though Zeke would e signing the most recent RB contract the Cowboys aren't willing to make him the most highly paid?

Maybe you should understand what i'm saying before making general statements?

Do you know what you are saying? Make your argument without stats you found that does not, in totality, rate Zeke. Someone else can use the same stats with different algorithms, and come up with different results. One thing I don't understand is, why are stats that naysayers use factual; while a supporter's stats are not justified? Before his holdout, none of these analystic gurus could be found.

 

[Starforever]

As if the information wasn't damning enough. This research was published today.

It should be noted this didn't shine a favorable light on Barkley either. But it goes to highlight a dump off to Zeke or Saquan for 12 yards on 3rd and 15 looks great in their statistical profile but wasn't helping the team win.

Still seeing Dallas and Zeke (he caught 77 balls remind you) 2nd to last only over the hapless Cardinals offense on success in throwing to the RB doesn't exactly scream transcendence.

Source: https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...-your-receiving-value-can-be-easily-replaced/

You make this so easy. Bad play calling, is attributed to the RB? Find stats that don't support those that you are arguing against.

 

[jay94]

Exactly.

Its going to be hilarious when our trash replacement backs can barely break 50 yards rushing a game and we are in last place in the division.

NO Zeke = NO playoffs

Won't happen

 

[Hadenough]

Just about every player, coach, announcer, publication and fan says that Elliott is an exceptional RB. He is routinely listed as one of the top backs in the game and is a force on the field every time he plays.

They know how great he is. To football people, it is clear as day.

As for myself, as a long time fan of the sport and as a guy who played the game, it’s easy to see that Elliott’s exceptional ability changes the game when he lines up behind the QB. His toughness and his physical nature wears a defense out by the second half. In a sport where toughness, heart and courage are a huge part of the game, there in no stat, that can measure what he means to his team. No conventional stat, nor a newly devised one, can tell you how beaten up a Safety is in the 4th quarter after dealing with Ezekiel for three quarters.

Jimmy Johnson said that people shouldn’t think that just because a guy is a pro football player, he likes the contact. He said there are plenty of guys who shy away from the physical stuff. He said some don’t mind the contact, some love it, and some hate it. The few guys, Jimmy said, who love the contact are the guys you want on your team. Elliott loves the contact. It shows. And a lot of the guys who have to tackle him, don’t. He wears on those guys, and it shapes games.

That difference in toughness and how it changes the game can’t be measured... but it is there.

The importance a defense puts on stopping Zeke. How much the defenders work to limit him while paying less attention to other players in the passing game. How much a defender starts shying away from the constant bludgeoning he’s receiving at the hands of Elliott and how that effects his ability to be ready for the sharp cuts Zeke makes in the secondary... these are things that aren’t measured by any stat. But they are things that effect the game and effect the outcome of the game to a large degree.

Elliott is a huge influence on the game and his value certainly can’t be measured by any numbers.

Well said!!!

 

[Hadenough]

As if the information wasn't damning enough. This research was published today.

It should be noted this didn't shine a favorable light on Barkley either. But it goes to highlight a dump off to Zeke or Saquan for 12 yards on 3rd and 15 looks great in their statistical profile but wasn't helping the team win.

Still seeing Dallas and Zeke (he caught 77 balls remind you) 2nd to last only over the hapless Cardinals offense on success in throwing to the RB doesn't exactly scream transcendence.

Source: https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...-your-receiving-value-can-be-easily-replaced/

Interesting stat. I really believe the QBs ability to throw downfield has an affect on backing off the defense enough so that the underneath passes to the RBs are more successful.

 

[ghst187]

There we go, as I said about all the Zeke fan boys...never his fault. Also, that wasn’t 2 “a bad game or two”, that was 4 games which is 1/4th of the season and that was behind an above average O line. I’d hate to see how bad his numbers would have been behind AZ, NYJ, NYJ, TB, Buffalo, etc.

Then by your standard Emmitt would’ve been a JAG too