How Special is Ezekiel?

[aria]

I think he’d still be very good but probably would be a closer comp to get rushing titles. I really see him as a vital cog and fit into the way our team works.
JG thinks it’s still the 1990s and we’ve spent all our draft picks on OL. So if we’re going to go play this 1990 style offense where we grind it out, control the clock, and give our back 25 carries per game...then a player like Zeke is all the more valuable to us. I rate Zeke so highly because he does everything great, run, grind out dirty yards, breaks a lot of tackles, breaks off big runs, controls the clock, catches the ball really well and pass pro really well. The way we use him even more so highlights his talents I think.
That said, his Schtick off field and the holdout is really annoying to me but feels almost like we’ve painted ourselves into a corner with relying on him.....

I get what you’re saying but he’s actually ranked pretty mediocre and even low in some of the categories you mentioned, specifically broken tackles and runs of 20+ yards.

My hope is with Kellen Moore, our offense won’t be so reliable on Zeke. One league leading rusher has one a Super Bowl in the past 20 years. This isn’t the 90’s anymore and we can’t keep trying to recreate those teams and expect to get to the next level. It’s been proven over the past several years that you can win Super Bowls without spending top dollar on a RB.

Contrary to what some people say, the cap is real and I would rather stick with Pollard, draft a RB next year and put that money towards our defense either in FA next year or to keep Jaylon, eventually LVE (god forbid he decides to sit after 3 years), or a handful of other guys that we need in our secondary.

Again, I 100% see your point and agree with most of it, I’d just rather take our chances without him for the reasons I stated above (plus his off the field liability) and draft a RB next year. No, they won’t be as good as Zeke but I think they will be plenty good enough to help win games IF our O line stays healthy and Moore isn’t as vanilla as Linehan.

Pittsburgh did it, Philly did it, Rams did it, Patriots always do it...we don’t “need” Zeke to win IMO but a lot of people are scared of what we would be without him due to the 6 games he was suspended which is much different than now and blown out of proportion to begin. Plus we were so used to Linehan and the points you brought up. The last thing I want to see is for this team to have it’s hands tied with the salary cap (we just got out of a mess a few years ago) due to paying top dollar for a walking liability knucklehead who plays a position that has proven to be very expendable (which is a large part of the reason he’s sitting out).

 

[ghst187]

I get what you’re saying but he’s actually ranked pretty mediocre and even low in some of the categories you mentioned, specifically broken tackles and runs of 20+ yards.

My hope is with Kellen Moore, our offense won’t be so reliable on Zeke. One league leading rusher has one a Super Bowl in the past 20 years. This isn’t the 90’s anymore and we can’t keep trying to recreate those teams and expect to get to the next level.

Yep 100% but I think JJ and JG still live there and this team is carefully constructed to be an exact replica, as much as they could anyway. But i agree with you on the “ ought to be”, don’t think JJ and JG do however

[/QUOTE]
and Moore isn’t as vanilla as Linehan.
[/QUOTE]
I think this has been a big chunk of the problem but also perhaps merely an outgrowth of my earlier point about JG living in the 90s. Back then, we had probowlers as backups and could dictate plays.
Now, as you mentioned, there is a thing called the cap. Now innovation, scheming, and mismatches are vital and can overcome talent disparity which has been mitigated via the cap. Sadly, we have had tons of talent and no innovation. I’ll say it again, if we win anything this year it will be bc of Moore....


[/QUOTE]
Pittsburgh did it, Philly did it, Rams did it, Patriots always do it...we don’t “need” Zeke to win IMO but a lot of people are scared of what we would be without him due to the 6 games he was suspended which is much different than now and blown out of proportion to begin. Plus we were so used to Linehan and the points you brought up. The last thing I want to see is for this team to have it’s hands tied with the salary cap (we just got out of a mess a few years ago) due to paying top dollar for a walking liability knucklehead who plays a position that has proven to be very expendable (which is a large part of the reason he’s sitting out).[/QUOTE]

Yep however the diff between us and those teams is that they either have the GOAT QB or had great coaching innovation or a great QB and good coaching. Right now, and I’m a big Dak believer,our QB isn’t someone we can reliably drop back 40x per game and win consistently, unless Kellen Moore.
I totally see your points on paying Zeke, i think he’s important enough to our success that I’d pay him one big but fair contract. However, we shouldn’t have to do this until NEXT offseason which really irks me. Doling out huge money to Zeke now negates somewhat our advantage of drafting well. We could’ve just gone out and paid for Bell. This holdout coming on the heels of another poor example of good judgment by Zeke is trying my patience with him. IMO we could roll with Pollard and we’d get Zeke back mid season or he loses his year but I think JJ thinks this year is all in and despite it all he is going to get Zeke on the field somehow even if he overpays. And it would pain my soul to see through the coming season and feel like we weren’t at full strength by not having him on the field.
So anyway totally 100% see and respect your points, I still want Zeke on the field given a big but somewhat reasonable contract JMO.

 

[aria]

Yep 100% but I think JJ and JG still live there and this team is carefully constructed to be an exact replica, as much as they could anyway. But i agree with you on the “ ought to be”, don’t think JJ and JG do however

Sorry, the quotes got all mess up bu in reference to everything else you said...

Yup, I wouldn’t be thrilled about it but I would be more understanding if he waited until next year to hold out and would be much less vocal about it, if at all. Since draft day this guy has done nothing but be a distraction and this is the cherry on top, now he’s screwing over his own team directly.

 

[ghst187]

Sorry, the quotes got all mess up bu in reference to everything else you said...

Yup, I wouldn’t be thrilled about it but I would be more understanding if he waited until next year to hold out and would be much less vocal about it, if at all. Since draft day this guy has done nothing but be a distraction and this is the cherry on top, now he’s screwing over his own team directly.

Yeah I was a huge fan wanting us to draft him and have been since but he’s really exhausting my support this time. 100% agree, if this stunt was this time next year, I got no issues.

 

[Melonfeud]

What's getting tiresome & old is that repeated (chanted?) mantra, about/along the lines of the entire offensive line unit having been built& purposely designed around/for this Elliott individual,,,Pleazzzzzze cease&desist with that B.S. will-ya?
We don't need some selfish ****tard attempting in getting paid by trying to hijack the teams seasons success by holding out( in all honesty?,,, this dude would probably be a single contract draft pick in any one of 3/4's of the league's franchises were he to prematurely play this hold-out card on them,,,, also,before his vaunted seasonal exploits are extolled once again,,,the simple fact to keep constant, being that of our o.l. having been constructed for any professional ground gainer to take advantage of,,,not just for this #21

 

[khiladi]

So what the hell are we paying Zeke for if because he runs more he gets "more exhausted" and therefore runs less efficiencly than guys in a committee.

Like what a ridiculous statement.

Also why do you get more tired running into a stacked box than not when most runs end with a tackle?

This is amazing the shapes people will twist themselves into to deny something the statistics, many statistics, wide ranging statistics, from different sources all suggest.

Do you know how stupid you sound?

Zeke runs incredibly efficient for the VOLUME he runs.. your the guy talking about how you know about normalization, when the stats you provided were comparing short yardage situation of Zeke At plus 40 runs to guys that carried it 17 times maximum.

You’ve just totally gone off the stupid end..

 

[khiladi]

He also ran MORE against non-stacked boxes.

The stats are per carry.

Is this real life?

And Hambrick’s stats per carry were better than Emmitt, which you keep ignoring for some ‘odd reason’.. is this real life?

 

[Toruk_Makto]

And Hambrick’s stats per carry were better than Emmitt, which you keep ignoring for some ‘odd reason’.. is this real life?

We actually don't have this same analysis for Hambrick. Just YPC is a sophomoric way to evaluate a RB.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Do you know how stupid you sound?

Zeke runs incredibly efficient for the VOLUME he runs..

Actually no he doesn't. That's the point.

You can make the argument he doesn't run efficiently because of all the volume he gets but you can't say he's efficient. Because...well...he's not. And it's there in black and white for you.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

Zeke is a volume player, and some would argue it diminishes his accomplishments. I get that argument. However, it’s very difficult to find a back who can handle the volume Zeke does year after year and not get injured or lose effectiveness. If he holds out any length of time over the regular season, we’ll certain find out how important he is.

 

[Seven]

Is there a reader's digest version?

He learned a new word.........

 

[Beast_from_East]

Zeke is the best RB in the league....................with that said.................I would trade him at this point, I'm done with this holdout bullchit.

 

[khiladi]

We actually don't have this same analysis for Hambrick. Just YPC is a sophomoric way to evaluate a RB.

It would be stupid regardless, because Hambrick, even if he was more efficient by the numbers, still doesn’t run the volume.. but keep playing the game of avoiding the fact you didn’t normalize the stats..

 

[khiladi]

Actually no he doesn't. That's the point.

You can make the argument he doesn't run efficiently because of all the volume he gets but you can't say he's efficient. Because...well...he's not. And it's there in black and white for you.

No, your analysis was flat out stupid and meaningless, because the people you are comparing him don’t run anywhere near the volume he does, thus the comparison between Hambrick and Emmitt and statements on lack of normalization..

That’s the point..

 

[Toruk_Makto]

It would be stupid regardless, because Hambrick, even if he was more efficient by the numbers, still doesn’t run the volume.. but keep playing the game of avoiding the fact you didn’t normalize the stats..

You are saying I said something I didn't say and then even if I did say it which I didn't it wouldn't be useful.

Alright.

And as I've ACTUALLY said you can't argue Zeke is an efficient runner. He's not. You can argue that he isn't efficient because he is given too much volume but that's a kind of awful stance to have to take when you're advocating paying him top money.

Good luck with that.

 

[khiladi]

You are saying I said something I didn't say and then even if I did say it which I didn't it wouldn't be useful.

Alright.

And as I've ACTUALLY said you can't argue Zeke is an efficient runner. He's not. You can argue that he isn't efficient because he is given too much volume but that's a kind of awful stance to have to take when you're advocating paying him top money.

Good luck with that.

Whether you said it or not, that’s the logical implications of your argument.. you can’t argue he’s not, because your argument is like saying Hambrick is more efficient than Emmitt, even if you tried to run around the argument by trying to say, well YPC is a stupid way to compare the two and we don’t have efficiency numbers for Hambrick or Emmitt.... it’s called normalization.. alright...

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Whether you said it or not, that’s the logical implications of your argument.. you can’t argue he’s not, because your argument is like saying Hambrick is more efficient than Emmitt, even if you tried to run around the argument by trying to say, well YPC is a stupid way to compare the two and we don’t have efficiency numbers for Hambrick or Emmitt.... it’s called normalization.. alright...

I didn't say it.

It is not my argument taken to it's logical conclusion.

YPC alone IS a stupid way to compare two RBs.

Normalization doesn't mean and isn't used in the way you think it is. It sounds like you vaugely recall the topic from 10th grade and are trying to apply it incorrectly here to explain why Zeke across all the metrics I posted fares poorly (outside of the volume weighted counting stats).

You cannot argue that Zeke is efficient verses his contemporaries. You can argue that Zeke isn't efficient because he has too much volume. But that opens up a huge can of worms like...why the hell sign him?

 

[khiladi]

I didn't say it.

It is not my argument taken to it's logical conclusion.

YPC alone IS a stupid way to compare two RBs.

Normalization doesn't mean and isn't used in the way you think it is. It sounds like you vaugely recall the topic from 10th grade and are trying to apply it incorrectly here to explain why Zeke across all the metrics I posted fares poorly (outside of the volume weighted counting stats).

You cannot argue that Zeke is efficient verses his contemporaries. You can argue that Zeke isn't efficient because he has too much volume. But that opens up a huge can of worms like...why the hell sign him?

No, I used normalization correctly. You didn’t, which is why you keep ignoring the fact you think Zeke running 43 times is equivalent to another guy above him running 17 times in short yardage situations is the same so it can be used as some type of adequate comparison regarding efficiency..

 

[Toruk_Makto]

No, I used normalization correctly. You didn’t, which is why you keep ignoring the fact you think Zeke running 43 times is equivalent to another guy above him running 17 times in short yardage situations is the same so it can be used as some type of adequate comparison regarding efficiency..

You are literally focused on one of the host of metrics in the OP. One.

And is it too much to ask for our "special" rb in a 16 game season to be efficient on 43 carries?

Put the 17 aside.

So I take it you're going to argue because we give Zeke a big workload he can't be efficient. So now answer me this... Why sign him?

 

[khiladi]

You are literally focused on one of the host of metrics in the OP. One.

And is it too much to ask for our "special" rb in a 16 game season to be efficient on 43 carries?

Put the 17 aside.

So I take it you're going to argue because we give Zeke a big workload he can't be efficient. So now answer me this... Why sign him?

One? That one just shows how foolish your comparison is. The others also show that you didn’t account for volume either, meaning you weren’t normalizing worth anything..