How successful will Zimmer's schemes be with Quinn's players?

fivetwos

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These guys quit on Quinn, they will have no problem quitting on Zimmer.
That’s a concern for sure. Figure in the thread topic with an OL that’s going to need time to gel, RB questions and the tougher part of the schedule being early, it’s going to be a challenge for this season to not turn into 2010.

Then what happens? Six of the last nine are at home, so they probably finish strong and then Jerry can sell Zimmer as the next HC and remain “comfortable” as the boss and celebrity face of the franchise.

Sorry to ruin it for anyone who hasn’t seen the movie.
 

doomsday9084

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These guys quit on Quinn, they will have no problem quitting on Zimmer.
What Quinn did against GB was the most fantastically dumb DC'ing I have ever seen. He got his DB's to back off in coverage and then put 6 men in the box against 2 TE sets. He literally had 6 undersized guys going up against 7 man fronts. When it was clear it wasn't working and wasn't going to work, he did nothing to change it.

I didn't see the defensive players quit. I saw them get hung out to dry by a DC with one foot out the door.
 

jazzcat22

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Should be improved in the run defense from the draft and zimmer. Turnovers will more than likely be down, I think sack numbers will be too
I think turnovers and sacks can be about the same, if not more..
The reason why, as you said, the run game will be improved, and if it is. That can create more 3rd and longs, and obvious passing situations.
Therefore, the pass rush can get sack opportunities, possible fumbles also, and create errant passes for INT's.
 

Bobhaze

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What Quinn did against GB was the most fantastically dumb DC'ing I have ever seen. He got his DB's to back off in coverage and then put 6 men in the box against 2 TE sets. He literally had 6 undersized guys going up against 7 man fronts. When it was clear it wasn't working and wasn't going to work, he did nothing to change it.

I didn't see the defensive players quit. I saw them get hung out to dry by a DC with one foot out the door.
I would add that Quinn not only used 6 men against 7 in the box, we had 210 lb Marquese Bell taking on 300 lb guards in the run game, and of course the guards won.

Quinn’s defense worked best when up two scores. But if the reverse happened, they were paper tigers. They could not impose their will without a pass rush or a turnover.
 

jazzcat22

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I would add that Quinn not only used 6 men against 7 in the box, we had 210 lb Marquese Bell taking on 300 lb guards in the run game, and of course the guards won.

Quinn’s defense worked best when up two scores. But if the reverse happened, they were paper tigers. They could not impose their will without a pass rush or a turnover.
Exactly.
As soon as LVE went down, and no replacement other than Safeties. The entire defense changed for the worse, so it seemed.
 

Coogiguy03

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Was one of my concerns as well with new coaches coming in, it's unrealistic to get all the players you need for your scheme but you have to use what you have untill you can add to it
 

plasticman

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In 2003, Zimmer was given the task of turning the Cowboys 4-3 defense into a 3-4.

The LB's were Dat Nguyen and Dexter Coakley, both were rather small for 3-4 LBers. In addition, he had to convert Greg Ellis, a traditional DE, into a 3-4 OLB.

Despite the fact that the Cowboys defense was in transition in 2003, they ended the season ranked #1 in yards allowed and #2 in points allowed, the highest rankings for a Cowboys defense in their history.
 

reddyuta

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Its frequently just a numbers game.

DQ would often leave a 6 man box with Parsons as DE and Bell as LB. That's a small number of small players. Its not setting you up for success in the run game but it certainly is setting you up for success against the pass.

If Zimmer puts more, bigger players in the box . . . that's going to fix the run defense and make the pass defense worse.

What I really want is a DC who coaches the game being played in front of you. If you are getting torched by the run, adjust. If you are getting beat deep, adjust.

Quinn's philosophy wasn't bad. The problem came when other teams had a wrinkle he wasn't prepared for. He really struggled to change things up in game.

From a player standpoint, I think Dallas has an issue at DT and LB. They had an issue at DT and LB under Quinn so that won't be a Quinn vs Zimmer thing as much as it is a Jones thing.
Quinn could never adjust,he couldnt even adjust in the SB and blew an all time lead.
 

conner01

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I think turnovers and sacks can be about the same, if not more..
The reason why, as you said, the run game will be improved, and if it is. That can create more 3rd and longs, and obvious passing situations.
Therefore, the pass rush can get sack opportunities, possible fumbles also, and create errant passes for INT's.
If we can play strong at DT I think that’s possible. I know some are worried about RB and all, but to me DT is where I think we still need help. Hopefully we can add there at some point maybe a vet cut in camp
 

quickccc

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Williams is likely your starter at DE on early downs with Micah moving around. Kneeland should get a ton of snaps on run heavy situations.

Clark was named starter at OLB.

Mazi is your starting DT.

Wilson is your starting SS.
Yep, i meant Donovan,, instead of Juanyeh Thomas

Thanks
 

Praxit

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..seeing this as cup half full. I dont see how Zimmer fails to make adjustments.

The guy has seen literally everything in the book. I believe will have at least have top 10 defense.

Maybe having a Parsons will add to his creativity? I dont know. But, its sure going to be interesting 24'.
 

Bobhaze

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In 2003, Zimmer was given the task of turning the Cowboys 4-3 defense into a 3-4.

The LB's were Dat Nguyen and Dexter Coakley, both were rather small for 3-4 LBers. In addition, he had to convert Greg Ellis, a traditional DE, into a 3-4 OLB.

Despite the fact that the Cowboys defense was in transition in 2003, they ended the season ranked #1 in yards allowed and #2 in points allowed, the highest rankings for a Cowboys defense in their history.
Great reminder.
 

deerhunter11

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First of all, shout out to my buddy @fivetwos for coming up with the line, “One of the rarely mentioned questions about this season is running Zimmers scheme with Quinn’s players.” He made that statement in a thread earlier today when discussing LB DeMarvion Overshown, a speedy but smallish LB out of college who has apparently added some weight this off-season.

That statement led me to write this post as a legitimate question going into this season - How successful Will Mike Zimmer’s defensive schemes be with a lot of players Dan Quinn wanted here?

Most defensive coordinators in the NFL have certain physical traits they favor in players who run their schemes. Jimmy Johnson and Dave Wannstedt back in the 90s loved speed and depth on those early 90s defenses. Wade Phillips, one of the gurus of the 3-4 defense always favored having a road grader NT and a speedy DE/LB (like DeMarcus Ware) who could rush the passer. Dan Quinn‘s schemes liked having a lot of guys who were great pass rushers and a secondary who could handle one on one coverage a lot. He liked tall corners, fast LBs who were almost Safety/LB hybrids that could cover and tackle. Getting turnovers was one of his best features while here.

Now we have the schemes of Mike Zimmer who runs a 4-3 base with a bit less aggression as we saw with Quinn. Zimmer has always preferred bigger DL and LBs who are built to stop the run. In fact one characteristic of Zimmer's defenses in the past is that the role of LB is most important and he prefers big hitters in that regard who can aggressively play sideline to sideline. But his defenses have never been known to force a ton of turnovers, as was the centerpiece of the Quinn years.

So, here are some key questions as we switch to the Zimmer defensive philosophy:
  • How Will Zimmer use Micah Parsons? The most gifted player on the defense has disappeared at times as his frame wears down as the season progresses. Will Zim play him less on the DL and in more traditional LB roles? Obviously MP will be used as a pass rusher. But will it be less often?
  • Will a bigger Mazi Smith be better suited for a 1 tech role in Zimmer’s plans? And will that make Mazi’s development better suited to his size and skill set?
  • Can a 32 year old Eric Kendricks be the monster LB Zimmer prefers to plug the middle or will someone else eventually assume that role?
  • Will guys like Osa Odighizhua and Chauncey Goldston be more or less effective as run stuffers in this new scheme?
  • Will rookie Marshawn Kneeland be more like a DeMarcus Lawrence type DE who is better against the run?
  • Will we see less turnovers in this system?
Obviously all these questions won’t be answered until the regular seasons starts. But it will be very interesting to see how this unfolds.
Good post,I would say the way Zimmer coaches he will get more out of these players, than Dan Quinn did.Zimmer will demand that aggressive play ,and players will respond,I feel like he is the perfect coach for these players. And he will get their best effort.
 

visionary

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Zimmers defense is based on more consistent defensive concepts and he is a more disciplined coach

The defense will be better
 

deerhunter11

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..seeing this as cup half full. I dont see how Zimmer fails to make adjustments.

The guy has seen literally everything in the book. I believe will have at least have top 10 defense.

Maybe having a Parsons will add to his creativity? I dont know. But, its sure going to be interesting 24'.
I agree Zimmer will be the best thing that ever happened to Parsons, and if D tackle play improves, you maybe looking at a top 5 defense. I am excited about coach Mike Zimmer.
 

Tractor1

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I liked Quin's defense. Without out the early injuries, it had a chance to be special. With defense being regulated out of the NFL, pressure and turnovers are key. I don't have much confidence in Zimmer's scheme.
 

CT Dal Fan

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These are not my words, I am paraphrasing things I have seen in online videos so forgive me if my terminology is a little off:

Quinn's defense was exposed by teams like the 49ers and Bills last year and the Packers copied it in the playoffs. Ran with three safeties around 80 percent of the time and instead of playing gap integrity, the defensive line stunted and attacked upfield every single time. Left huge running lanes open for teams that ran zone blocking schemes like San Francisco.

Zimmer's scheme attacks as well, but the defensive tackles will be asked to plug gaps instead of slanting and attacking upfield. This will make it harder for teams to run the ball on early downs.

Quinn's scheme was very good provided the Cowboys had a two or more score lead. Everything was designed assuming teams would be impatient and throw the ball more than run it. That's why the Cowboys' defense had such good stats in the games they won or at least controlled. But in games like the Cardinals and Bills losses, they were giving up 200 or more rushing yards.
 

gimmesix

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Mike Zimm's likely starting lineup ?

DE - Parsons
DT - Osa
DT - vet 1 tech (to be named later)
DE - Dlaw

OLB- Marist
MLB - Hendricks
OLB - Overshown

CB - Diggs
CB - Bland
3rd CB - Lewis
SS - Thomas
FS - Hooker
Depends on what down:

Early downs/running downs:

DE - Kneeland/Golston
DT - Odighuzuwa
DT - Smith
DE - Lawrence/Fehoko
WLB - Overshown/Clark
MLB - Hendricks
SLB - Parsons/Clark
CB - Diggs
CB - Bland
SS - Wilson
FS - Hooker

Nickel:

DE - Parsons
DT - Kneeland/Golston
DT - Lawrence/Odighizuwa/Fehoko
DE - Williams
LB - Overshown/Marist
LB - Bell
CB - Diggs
CB - Bland
CB - Lewis
SS - Wilson/Thomas
FS - Hooker

Note: Second and third players listed at a position will be rotation considerations.
 

UncleOscar

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Nothing on his resume indicates that he will do anything of note here. We will have a worse defense than with Quinn, but yet Jerry will name him head coach for 2025 and beyond.

Zimmer is what his record says he is - a guy who won't coach your defense or team to a championship.
You're probably right, sadly
 

kskboys

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I think it will be a huge difference. Won't have as many TO's, but will have more 3rd down stops.
 
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