How successful will Zimmer's schemes be with Quinn's players?

[ArtClink]

First of all, shout out to my buddy @fivetwos for coming up with the line, “One of the rarely mentioned questions about this season is running Zimmers scheme with Quinn’s players.” He made that statement in a thread earlier today when discussing LB DeMarvion Overshown, a speedy but smallish LB out of college who has apparently added some weight this off-season.

That statement led me to write this post as a legitimate question going into this season - How successful Will Mike Zimmer’s defensive schemes be with a lot of players Dan Quinn wanted here?

Most defensive coordinators in the NFL have certain physical traits they favor in players who run their schemes. Jimmy Johnson and Dave Wannstedt back in the 90s loved speed and depth on those early 90s defenses. Wade Phillips, one of the gurus of the 3-4 defense always favored having a road grader NT and a speedy DE/LB (like DeMarcus Ware) who could rush the passer. Dan Quinn‘s schemes liked having a lot of guys who were great pass rushers and a secondary who could handle one on one coverage a lot. He liked tall corners, fast LBs who were almost Safety/LB hybrids that could cover and tackle. Getting turnovers was one of his best features while here.

Now we have the schemes of Mike Zimmer who runs a 4-3 base with a bit less aggression as we saw with Quinn. Zimmer has always preferred bigger DL and LBs who are built to stop the run. In fact one characteristic of Zimmer's defenses in the past is that the role of LB is most important and he prefers big hitters in that regard who can aggressively play sideline to sideline. But his defenses have never been known to force a ton of turnovers, as was the centerpiece of the Quinn years.

So, here are some key questions as we switch to the Zimmer defensive philosophy:

• How Will Zimmer use Micah Parsons? The most gifted player on the defense has disappeared at times as his frame wears down as the season progresses. Will Zim play him less on the DL and in more traditional LB roles? Obviously MP will be used as a pass rusher. But will it be less often?
• Will a bigger Mazi Smith be better suited for a 1 tech role in Zimmer’s plans? And will that make Mazi’s development better suited to his size and skill set?
• Can a 32 year old Eric Kendricks be the monster LB Zimmer prefers to plug the middle or will someone else eventually assume that role?
• Will guys like Osa Odighizhua and Chauncey Goldston be more or less effective as run stuffers in this new scheme?
• Will rookie Marshawn Kneeland be more like a DeMarcus Lawrence type DE who is better against the run?
• Will we see less turnovers in this system?

Obviously all these questions won’t be answered until the regular seasons starts. But it will be very interesting to see how this unfolds.

Great post and excellent questions. IMO the deciding factor was finding a def coordinator who the owner is comfortable with.

 

[xwalker]

First of all, shout out to my buddy @fivetwos for coming up with the line, “One of the rarely mentioned questions about this season is running Zimmers scheme with Quinn’s players.” He made that statement in a thread earlier today when discussing LB DeMarvion Overshown, a speedy but smallish LB out of college who has apparently added some weight this off-season.

That statement led me to write this post as a legitimate question going into this season - How successful Will Mike Zimmer’s defensive schemes be with a lot of players Dan Quinn wanted here?

Most defensive coordinators in the NFL have certain physical traits they favor in players who run their schemes. Jimmy Johnson and Dave Wannstedt back in the 90s loved speed and depth on those early 90s defenses. Wade Phillips, one of the gurus of the 3-4 defense always favored having a road grader NT and a speedy DE/LB (like DeMarcus Ware) who could rush the passer. Dan Quinn‘s schemes liked having a lot of guys who were great pass rushers and a secondary who could handle one on one coverage a lot. He liked tall corners, fast LBs who were almost Safety/LB hybrids that could cover and tackle. Getting turnovers was one of his best features while here.

Now we have the schemes of Mike Zimmer who runs a 4-3 base with a bit less aggression as we saw with Quinn. Zimmer has always preferred bigger DL and LBs who are built to stop the run. In fact one characteristic of Zimmer's defenses in the past is that the role of LB is most important and he prefers big hitters in that regard who can aggressively play sideline to sideline. But his defenses have never been known to force a ton of turnovers, as was the centerpiece of the Quinn years.

So, here are some key questions as we switch to the Zimmer defensive philosophy:

• How Will Zimmer use Micah Parsons? The most gifted player on the defense has disappeared at times as his frame wears down as the season progresses. Will Zim play him less on the DL and in more traditional LB roles? Obviously MP will be used as a pass rusher. But will it be less often?
• Will a bigger Mazi Smith be better suited for a 1 tech role in Zimmer’s plans? And will that make Mazi’s development better suited to his size and skill set?
• Can a 32 year old Eric Kendricks be the monster LB Zimmer prefers to plug the middle or will someone else eventually assume that role?
• Will guys like Osa Odighizhua and Chauncey Goldston be more or less effective as run stuffers in this new scheme?
• Will rookie Marshawn Kneeland be more like a DeMarcus Lawrence type DE who is better against the run?
• Will we see less turnovers in this system?

Obviously all these questions won’t be answered until the regular seasons starts. But it will be very interesting to see how this unfolds.

I don't see any downside with regards to key players.
- If one of the super tall DBs had been a starter under Quinn, then maybe that wouldn't be a fit for Zimmer.

When has Zimmer had a "monster" MLB? They had small LBs when he was in Dallas previously.

• Who is a Quinn player that would be an odd fit in other schemes?
  • Parsons can play in any scheme.
  • Kendricks is a Zimmer player.
  • Mazi can only get better.
  • Kearse is gone.
  • Bell likely competes at SS instead of LB.
  • None of the super tall DBs are starters.
  • Zimmer's focus on run defense should only help Odighizuwa.
  • Chauncey Golston has not been a starter and is on the last year of his contract (i.e. Don't care).
    • They could move Golston back to DE if they're focused on stopping the run.
  • They retained Al Harris as the DB coach.

 

[xwalker]

All I remember of Zimmers defense here was it was very conservative and didn't generate turnovers...like ever. Whether that was due to the players or him I don't know.

The Cowboys in 2003 (Parcells let Zimmer keep the 4-3 for Parcells' first 2 seasons.
- 2nd in points allowed.
- 1st in total yards allowed.

 

[exciter]

In 2003, Zimmer was given the task of turning the Cowboys 4-3 defense into a 3-4.

The LB's were Dat Nguyen and Dexter Coakley, both were rather small for 3-4 LBers. In addition, he had to convert Greg Ellis, a traditional DE, into a 3-4 OLB.

Despite the fact that the Cowboys defense was in transition in 2003, they ended the season ranked #1 in yards allowed and #2 in points allowed, the highest rankings for a Cowboys defense in their history.

They didn’t transition to a 34 until 2005 when they drafted Ware and Spears. Ware, Fujita, Shale, and James were the LBs. Ellis played as an undersized 5tech and didn’t play OLB until the following season!

 

[TwentyOne]

I dont believe the "change" PR hype. This is how the business works. Change and sell the new guy as the messiah.

The old guy who just left the building was the messiah back in the day when he was the new guy. Always the same story. Ive seen and read it too often. NFL marketing is not very creative and it doesnt need to be.

Back to the topic:

Zimmer is a has been guy. Was it already when he was run out of town here in dallas because he couldnt get a grasp of the 3-4 defense. We gave him 2 years for that. Not a chance. We brought in the back-than (trash talk) 3-4 Guru ryan. Who was the messiah to our problems back then... Well we all know how that story endes.

Zimmer is not versatile enough and he never was able to change his approach to the newer nfl offenses. His approach was good in the 90s.

I think our defense will be ok to good. He will fix the running game for the most part. But we will be very suspect against the pass and a joy for more creative offenses to play against. i am looking forward to our Meetings against the Eagles.

But he wont be able to do anything against our softness. Its a mental thing coming from the FO. Wrong players you attract wont change under another coach.

Zimmer, as the whole setup in 2024 is a look and see what you got. A Interim solution to see who you will keep and with whom you better part ways.

 

[nate dizzle]

The Cowboys in 2003 (Parcells let Zimmer keep the 4-3 for Parcells' first 2 seasons.
- 2nd in points allowed.
- 1st in total yards allowed.

Yep, by far his biggest accomplishment during his tenure here. They still were in the bottom 3rd of the league in turnovers and sacks. His defenses were much worse 2000-2002 and 2004-2006, and every year in the bottom tier for turnovers and sacks.

 

[plasticman]

They didn’t transition to a 34 until 2005 when they drafted Ware and Spears. Ware, Fujita, Shale, and James were the LBs. Ellis played as an undersized 5tech and didn’t play OLB until the following season!

They did not fuly transition until that time because they lacked the personnel. However, they employed many 3-4 concepts such as the 4th "mystery" pass rusher.

In a traditional 3-4 defense, the three D-linemen use a more controlled approach in their pass rush. The real pressure is applied to the QB mostly from the 4th pass rusher who can be any other the LB's or safeties or even CB's.

Since the 4th pass rusher can come from anywhere, this created confusion and uncertainty along the offensive line.

In 2003 only one of the 11 starters failed to get a sack. Often, a D-lineman would actually play zone coverage and be replaced by a pass rusher from the LB's and DB's.

 

[exciter]

They did not fuly transition until that time because they lacked the personnel. However, they employed many 3-4 concepts such as the 4th "mystery" pass rusher.

In a traditional 3-4 defense, the three D-linemen use a more controlled approach in their pass rush. The real pressure is applied to the QB mostly from the 4th pass rusher who can be any other the LB's or safeties or even CB's.

Since the 4th pass rusher can come from anywhere, this created confusion and uncertainty along the offensive line.

In 2003 only one of the 11 starters failed to get a sack. Often, a D-lineman would actually play zone coverage and be replaced by a pass rusher from the LB's and DB's.

They were running Greg Ellis on the left and Marcellus Wiley on the right in about as basic a 43 as seen in the league!

 

[Carnes]

Nothing on his resume indicates that he will do anything of note here. We will have a worse defense than with Quinn, but yet Jerry will name him head coach for 2025 and beyond.

Zimmer is what his record says he is - a guy who won't coach your defense or team to a championship.

Wish I had your enthusiasm

 

[plasticman]

They were running Greg Ellis on the left and Marcellus Wiley on the right in about as basic a 43 as seen in the league!

Because DE's don't rush the passer in a 3-4 defense?

They didn't convert to a 3-4 defense overnight and everybody knows Parcells wanted a 3-4. This had to be accomplished in steps and, as I pointed out, they adopted some of the concepts in 2003.

Or does 10 of 11 starters typically record at least one sack in a 4-3 defense?

 

[exciter]

Because DE's don't rush the passer in a 3-4 defense?

They didn't convert to a 3-4 defense overnight and everybody knows Parcells wanted a 3-4. This had to be accomplished in steps and, as I pointed out, they adopted some of the concepts in 2003.

Or does 10 of 11 starters typically record at least one sack in a 4-3 defense?

No, but they didn’t begin transitioning to a 34 until 2005 when they picked up Ware, Spears and Canty. They didn’t move Ellis to OLB until 2006, after jettising Glover and picking up Ferguson and Ayodele.
They had whopping totals of 32 and 33 sacks for the 03 and 04 seasons. Having to rely on corner and safety blitzes to create any type of pressure a 34 defense does not make!
We had 11 players record a sack this season, 12 the previous season… didn’t make it a 34!

 

[Buzzbait]

I think the defense will be all about the DTs. I think DLaw and Sam Williams will be okay but I am not counting on Mazi.

Surprisingly, there's a guy I don't see talked about hardly at all in here so far and that's Justin Rogers, 6' 2", 338 lbs, DT out of Auburn.
He was primarily a big strong 1 tech NT for Auburn and they liked him. From everything I've been able to find on him, he sounds like just what we need at that position. Don't overlook Justin Rogers, he's going to be a good one.

 

[Majic]

They did not fuly transition until that time because they lacked the personnel. However, they employed many 3-4 concepts such as the 4th "mystery" pass rusher.

In a traditional 3-4 defense, the three D-linemen use a more controlled approach in their pass rush. The real pressure is applied to the QB mostly from the 4th pass rusher who can be any other the LB's or safeties or even CB's.

Since the 4th pass rusher can come from anywhere, this created confusion and uncertainty along the offensive line.

In 2003 only one of the 11 starters failed to get a sack. Often, a D-lineman would actually play zone coverage and be replaced by a pass rusher from the LB's and DB's.

Your explanation is why I have always favoured the 3-4. It is more cryptic and as you previously stated, our best ever season statistically was when it was run. Throw Parsons into the mix and it is the way to go long term. (Please no comments we are in Nickel 70% of the time)

I was listening to Michael Lombardi recently and I could tell he respects Zimmer but he did say that Tom Brady always knew how to dismantle his DEF. My worry is it will be a bend not break to begin with but as the season develops it starts to break.

 

[noshame]

These guys are 2 good DCs they use the strengths of the talent they have and attack. Zimmer is a bit more aggressive than he was back in the day.
Defense plugged a couple holes and should be a top three unit. Although depending on the offense they may be put in horrible positions more often than not.