I do not see any difference between that play and the Dez play in 2014 *merged*

[KJJ]

A receiver can turn while falling due to their great athletic ability. Receivers are freaks. Dez did some impressive things while heading to the ground but the ball didn’t survive the ground. No one can defy gravity regardless of their athletic ability.

 

[rkell87]

Exactly and the reason reaching is there is because your advancing the ball anyways, irrespective of whether one takes steps or not. The ball is placed where the ball is when the knee hits for example.

Also, an attempted reach is a football move, because the whole point of football is to score points by crossing the plane, stepping over the plane is incidental in this regard. A QB just has to reach over the plane, of he sneaks at the goal-line and it’s irrelevant where his feet are. So basically as soon as a WR catches it next to the goal line and has both feet down and tries to reach to cross the pane, he’s a runner just like a RB who gets stood up at the goal-line but puts his arm across the plane.

Dez has THREE steps, one at the five, the other at the four, the third at the 2.5 which leads to a lunge of over two yards where he even reaches more.

And this would be instant replay from different angles, and slow motion..

Replying to you because you have the gif.

Dez high points the ball over the defender catching the ball with two hands.

The defender gets his right hand on the ball after Dez grabs it with two hands and is able rip Dez's right hand away from the ball.

With the ball in Dez's left hand, his left foot hits the ground; note that his foot along with his shoulders, head, and hands are not pointed towards the end zone.

Dez re-secures the ball with two hands before his right foot and second step happens so now we have possession with two feet in bounds and two steps.

Dez turns his body toward the goal line with two hands on the ball.

The defenders leg hooks the inside of Dez's right leg causing Dez to get off balance. At this moment Dez starts to secure the ball in his left arm.

Because he's off balance Dez's left toe catches the field on his third step. Note that his left knee is still under him when his toe catches.

He pushes off hard with his left leg and you see dirt fly from the effort. Some might argue the toe bounced and the lunge is the fourth step but it's unnecessary to get caught up here.

Dez is falling and literally looking at the ball to see if he makes it to the goal line at this point.

Dez reaches out with his right hand both trying to hold his body off the ground a few more moments and propel himself farther to get the ball over the goal line.

Dez's right elbow is on the ground with that arm underneath his body as Dez's left hip contacts the ground. Note that his left arm and the ball have not contacted the ground yet.

Dez's left arm and the ball contact the ground, the ball shifts upward but the nose of the ball is still in Dez's hand maintaining possession.



If any of you try to tell me any of that is wrong I'll tell you to shove it but we can talk about where the catch occurred.

Now before we start let's remember we aren't in 2018 here, the rules were different.


Three things we need to talk about: when does a receiver have possession, what is a football move and when does it occur, and most importantly when does a WR become a runner.

I'm going to stick to just this play, personally I think Dez has possession with two hands on it in the air and maintains it with one hand. Some might say it's when he has one foot on the ground and two hands on it. Some people might say it's when he gets that second foot down and that's fine. Let's all agree he possesses the ball by the time he's falling with it in his left arm because at that point he's moved the ball from 12 feet in the air to 3 feet off the ground covering a distance of 14 feet toward the goal line and 5 feet toward the side line.

Ok so Dez has possession great, now what is a football move. Again sticking to this play, is catching the ball, then having the defender rip one hand away and repossessing the ball with two hands a football move? I think you could argue it. Is lunging because you tripped a football move? Maybe. Is lunging because the defender caused you to trip a football move? Now we are getting closer. What about putting the arm down? He had two hands on the ball with it in front of him, he could have just fell on it short of the goal line but no he put the ball in his left arm and put his right hand down so yeah that's a football move. By my count that's possession with three steps and three football moves.

Now we all know you have to maintain control of the catch through contact with the ground; that is unless you've established yourself as a runner. You remember all those rules they put in place to protect receivers from getting blasted as the caught the ball? Well some of them set precedents for when a receiver had finished catching the ball and is no longer defenseless and in so doing established when they became a runner and therefore eligible to fumble the ball.

You might argue that the defender ripping Dez's hand away is part of catching the ball and is not a football move. You might also argue that the move occurred before both feet came down that it doesn't contribute to the equation for establishing yourself as a runner.

You could also argue that Dez lunging with his third step and putting his hand out aren't two moves but two parts to the same move. But at this point you have to agree that he made a football move, if you agree that he made a football move and you agree that he took three steps then the NFL has deemed Dez Bryant a runner, the process of catching the ball was complete before hitting the ground therefore the ground can not cause a fumble to a runner. It should have been Cowboys ball at the half yard line.

BOOM! Lawyered. **** you NFL

 

[rkell87]

By the time Dez gathered the ball in and had clear possession of it his momentum was clearly taking him to the ground. By the time he had possession of the ball he took one step as he was falling to the ground and his left foot on the second attempted step never even got firmly planted on the ground. He ended up pushing off on his toes with his left foot as he was parallel to the ground trying to reach the endzone. Where’s the third step? His left foot landing on the ground after making the catch wasn’t a step. That last push off on his toes wasn’t a step. Besides steps don’t matter when the receivers momentum is taking them to the ground they still have to complete the process.

Left foot hits ground at five yard line, right foot hits ground ahead of left foot at four yard line, left foot hits ground ahead of right foot at three yard line with divot to prove it. You want to try arguing that separate feet on the same person alternating in three foot intervals aren't steps again? Lmao

 

[DogFace]

Again, the case play and the Dez play are nearly identical IF a person believes Dez came down in control and then went to the ground because of contact from the opponent. If that's what you believe happened, then you can apply that case play. I don't believe that's how it happened. I believe he was going to the ground the whole way, so in my perception of the play the case play does not fit the bill. As I've said before, if it's just a matter of perception, that's cool. Reasonable people sometimes see things differently. But if it comes down to ignoring a portion of the circumstances specifically set out in the case play in order to force the scenario to fit, I can't go along with that.

I agree that we can see things differently. Except can you really expect a ref or even replay to properly and fairly determine whether a player would fall because of a trip or because he was off balance? Do you think the caseplay says that?
Couldn’t they just have added if he goes down from contact or from being off balance. Other rules posted specify it doesn’t matter if there is contact or not. Because, as with the Dez case, possibly a little of both contributed to him going to the ground. Either way the 3 part process was completed and the rule doesn’t say it can’t be competed while falling, lunging, or diving.

Either way I don’t think it matters why he may have been falling or not. I don’t feel the case says that it matters. I don’t believe the case implies the ref must decide what caused him to go to the ground to decide if that case can be applied.

As has been stated plenty the three step process is what had to be completed. We all agree on give first two. For the third one specific example is the player “have time” to pitch the ball. Do you think Dez could’ve pitched it?

 

[aria]

The main problem I have with replay is the affect it has on the on field officials, they seem to have a bit of an I don't have to call it because replay can fix it. That is fine and dandy if coaches have unlimited challenges, but how many times have you seen coaches having to use all their challenges because the officials continually missed calls. The other problem is time. The networks have turned every review into a commercial fest, and what should take a minute or two takes six or seven minutes.

Some good points. I do think they also need to fix the challenges. It’s absurd that a coach can be right and still be punished for it so to speak by losing the ability to challenge. That’s literally one of the dumbest rules ever. They definitely need to get the commercial thing figured out. I know reviewing PI would add quite a bit of time to the game but I’m sure there’s a way they could figure out how to cur back on the “regularly programmed” commercials and imcorporate them into the instant replay timeouts instead.

Or do something like hockey where there is already a central location looking at the play which cuts back on the decision time considerably. You never see officals taking 3-4minutes in hockey to figure out a penalty or goal.

 

[DogFace]

The wording is the problem. Or lack there of. It wasn't until I really started comparing the case plays did I figure out the intent. I did originally think that they were in conflict. It doesn't help matters that the rules and case plays are scattered about.

But the case play and the Dez play are not the same. Similar, but different in the main aspect of the case play. He never interrupted or gathered himself while falling. There was a continuing motion of falling. No time did he ever regain his balance.

So in the caseplay the “braces himself” is the part where you felt the player gathered himself?
Probably. I feel Dez did try to brace for the impact with his right hand which, of course, at one time was on the ball. Taking your hand off the ball to attempt a brace seems like a football move. I thought it was posted that the rules didn’t state the 3 part process could not be completed on the was to the ground.

One other point is Part 3 of the catch process rule used the example-if the player has time to pitch the ball.

Do you think Dez could’ve pitched it or he had time?
Seems as though rather than reaching out with one hand in an attempt to get more yardage he had time to pitch it.

 

[Aviano90]

Can final arguments be made and let’s send this to the forum jury for a verdict?

 

[DogFace]

If those were my "exact words" then quote the post.

If you are using the case plays to support that a receiver could become a runner at any point from standing to hitting the ground, then why is A.R. 8.12 in the 2014 rules AND the 2015 rules if you couldn't do so in 2015?

And from my point of view, wingman just means lightweight.

Didn’t you say you’d defer to your squadron leader blindfaith a while back?

That makes you a wingman.

What’s your name for a ringleader supporter? I remember when you told me that I had to get my ringleader to help me That was hurtful. I think. Or is it better than being a wingman?

 

[DogFace]

Again, the case play and the Dez play are nearly identical IF a person believes Dez came down in control and then went to the ground because of contact from the opponent. If that's what you believe happened, then you can apply that case play. I don't believe that's how it happened. I believe he was going to the ground the whole way, so in my perception of the play the case play does not fit the bill. As I've said before, if it's just a matter of perception, that's cool. Reasonable people sometimes see things differently. But if it comes down to ignoring a portion of the circumstances specifically set out in the case play in order to force the scenario to fit, I can't go along with that.

The caseplay does not specify whether it matters of he went down by contact or not. As blindzebra pointed out the rule that the caseplay is one example of states it does not matter if there was contact or not.

This is why he has to go back and forth between the rule and casebooks. They work together and the cases are multiple examples of the rules in a given case.

 

[trickamsterdam]

Some good points. I do think they also need to fix the challenges. It’s absurd that a coach can be right and still be punished for it so to speak by losing the ability to challenge. That’s literally one of the dumbest rules ever. They definitely need to get the commercial thing figured out. I know reviewing PI would add quite a bit of time to the game but I’m sure there’s a way they could figure out how to cur back on the “regularly programmed” commercials and imcorporate them into the instant replay timeouts instead.

Or do something like hockey where there is already a central location looking at the play which cuts back on the decision time considerably. You never see officals taking 3-4minutes in hockey to figure out a penalty or goal.

If you get your first two challenges right, you get a third, so if you run out of challenges you've been wrong at least once.

 

[blindzebra]

If you get your first two challenges right, you get a third, so if you run out of challenges you've been wrong at least once.

It should every one you get right should not be lost. After all you are fixing their mistake by having to challenge.

 

[aria]

If you get your first two challenges right, you get a third, so if you run out of challenges you've been wrong at least once.

And...? Why should you potentially lose any of your abilities to challenge if you’re right?

 

[Aviano90]

Get rid of instant replay entirely. Live with the occasional bad call and benefit from the occasional break. The game isn’t played in slow motion viewed from 6 different angles. Over analyizIng replays is ruining the game more than just dealing with a bad call would do, IMO.

 

[TwentyOne]

Dez never established himself as a runner. The process of the catch never was complete. He lost control of the ball during that process. Therefore it was incomplete.

This was the way that kind of play was ruled in the year 2014 by every referee i watched. And it was always explained like this by referees in front of cameras again and again and again.

What i want to say is: The way this kind of play was judged in 2014 was consitent over the whole season.

In the NFL rulebook all they did is they tried to clarify much more after when the process of a catch has ended and has gone over into a running play. Nothing else changed. That the pass will still be incomplete when the WR loses control of the ball DURNING the process of the catch is still there (like it was in 2014). If the WR established himself as a runner then it will be ruled a fumble if the WR loses control if the ball.

Watch SB 4th QRT 2:21 to play. He established himself cleary as a runner. Easy call. Dont listen to the moderators. They just hype this thing.

The most ridiculous thing is the trash talk the moderators do like "i dont know anymore.." "...nobody knows not even the refs, the NFL has to do something about the situation..."

This is just crap. The moderators just hype the theme so alot more people talk about it - its called clickbait.

 

[DogFace]

The thread title tells you the problem with this fan base. Most see no difference between the Dez and Ertz play when there’s significant differences. Anyone who can’t decipher those two plays is never going to grasp anything about this rule.

That may be one problem with this fan base.

I know one other.

 

[DogFace]

Replying to you because you have the gif.

Dez high points the ball over the defender catching the ball with two hands.

The defender gets his right hand on the ball after Dez grabs it with two hands and is able rip Dez's right hand away from the ball.

With the ball in Dez's left hand, his left foot hits the ground; note that his foot along with his shoulders, head, and hands are not pointed towards the end zone.

Dez re-secures the ball with two hands before his right foot and second step happens so now we have possession with two feet in bounds and two steps.

Dez turns his body toward the goal line with two hands on the ball.

The defenders leg hooks the inside of Dez's right leg causing Dez to get off balance. At this moment Dez starts to secure the ball in his left arm.

Because he's off balance Dez's left toe catches the field on his third step. Note that his left knee is still under him when his toe catches.

He pushes off hard with his left leg and you see dirt fly from the effort. Some might argue the toe bounced and the lunge is the fourth step but it's unnecessary to get caught up here.

Dez is falling and literally looking at the ball to see if he makes it to the goal line at this point.

Dez reaches out with his right hand both trying to hold his body off the ground a few more moments and propel himself farther to get the ball over the goal line.

Dez's right elbow is on the ground with that arm underneath his body as Dez's left hip contacts the ground. Note that his left arm and the ball have not contacted the ground yet.

Dez's left arm and the ball contact the ground, the ball shifts upward but the nose of the ball is still in Dez's hand maintaining possession.



If any of you try to tell me any of that is wrong I'll tell you to shove it but we can talk about where the catch occurred.

Now before we start let's remember we aren't in 2018 here, the rules were different.


Three things we need to talk about: when does a receiver have possession, what is a football move and when does it occur, and most importantly when does a WR become a runner.

I'm going to stick to just this play, personally I think Dez has possession with two hands on it in the air and maintains it with one hand. Some might say it's when he has one foot on the ground and two hands on it. Some people might say it's when he gets that second foot down and that's fine. Let's all agree he possesses the ball by the time he's falling with it in his left arm because at that point he's moved the ball from 12 feet in the air to 3 feet off the ground covering a distance of 14 feet toward the goal line and 5 feet toward the side line.

Ok so Dez has possession great, now what is a football move. Again sticking to this play, is catching the ball, then having the defender rip one hand away and repossessing the ball with two hands a football move? I think you could argue it. Is lunging because you tripped a football move? Maybe. Is lunging because the defender caused you to trip a football move? Now we are getting closer. What about putting the arm down? He had two hands on the ball with it in front of him, he could have just fell on it short of the goal line but no he put the ball in his left arm and put his right hand down so yeah that's a football move. By my count that's possession with three steps and three football moves.

Now we all know you have to maintain control of the catch through contact with the ground; that is unless you've established yourself as a runner. You remember all those rules they put in place to protect receivers from getting blasted as the caught the ball? Well some of them set precedents for when a receiver had finished catching the ball and is no longer defenseless and in so doing established when they became a runner and therefore eligible to fumble the ball.

You might argue that the defender ripping Dez's hand away is part of catching the ball and is not a football move. You might also argue that the move occurred before both feet came down that it doesn't contribute to the equation for establishing yourself as a runner.

You could also argue that Dez lunging with his third step and putting his hand out aren't two moves but two parts to the same move. But at this point you have to agree that he made a football move, if you agree that he made a football move and you agree that he took three steps then the NFL has deemed Dez Bryant a runner, the process of catching the ball was complete before hitting the ground therefore the ground can not cause a fumble to a runner. It should have been Cowboys ball at the half yard line.

BOOM! Lawyered. **** you NFL

I hope others read this. Excellent and accurate detailed description. Some in denial may disagree with the conclusion, but the facts of what happened are there.

Great post. I never noticed shields ripping his hand away and I’ve watched it 3078 times.

 

[Kevinicus]

Dez never established himself as a runner. The process of the catch never was complete. He lost control of the ball during that process. Therefore it was incomplete.

This was the way that kind of play was ruled in the year 2014 by every referee i watched. And it was always explained like this by referees in front of cameras again and again and again.

What i want to say is: The way this kind of play was judged in 2014 was consitent over the whole season.

In the NFL rulebook all they did is they tried to clarify much more after when the process of a catch has ended and has gone over into a running play. Nothing else changed. That the pass will still be incomplete when the WR loses control of the ball DURNING the process of the catch is still there (like it was in 2014). If the WR established himself as a runner then it will be ruled a fumble if the WR loses control if the ball.

Watch SB 4th QRT 2:21 to play. He established himself cleary as a runner. Easy call. Dont listen to the moderators. They just hype this thing.

The most ridiculous thing is the trash talk the moderators do like "i dont know anymore.." "...nobody knows not even the refs, the NFL has to do something about the situation..."

This is just crap. The moderators just hype the theme so alot more people talk about it - its called clickbait.

Wut the...

 

[OmerV]

The caseplay does not specify whether it matters of he went down by contact or not. As blindzebra pointed out the rule that the caseplay is one example of states it does not matter if there was contact or not.

This is why he has to go back and forth between the rule and casebooks. They work together and the cases are multiple examples of the rules in a given case.

Assuming you are referring to AR 8.12, the case play actually does specify that he goes down as a result of contact by the opponent, so that is part of the set of circumstance the case play is addressing. As for going back to the rule book, I believe this play is essentially a clarification of Item 1 in the rule book which says that if a player is going to the ground with or without contact (meaning he is going to the ground regardless of whether there is any contact or not), then he has to maintain possession all the way through. In my mind A.R. 8.12 is telling us that Item 1 doesn't apply in the case where 1 foot is down before the contact and then it is only the contact that causes the player to go to the ground.

 

[DogFace]

Assuming you are referring to AR 8.12, the case play actually does specify that he goes down as a result of contact by the opponent, so that is part of the set of circumstance the case play is addressing. As for going back to the rule book, I believe this play is essentially a clarification of Item 1 in the rule book which says that if a player is going to the ground with or without contact (meaning he is going to the ground regardless of whether there is any contact or not), then he has to maintain possession all the way through. In my mind A.R. 8.12 is telling us that Item 1 doesn't apply in the case where 1 foot is down before the contact and then it is only the contact that causes the player to go to the ground.

If it’s a clarification of the going to the ground rule and he goes to the ground and loses control, which he does in the caseplay, then why is it ruled complete?

I’m pretty sure this is a caseplay to be used as an example of completing the 3 step process on the way to the ground.

Blindzebra or Percy will know for sure. It’s clear neither of us do. @MarcusRock originally posted it. If he gets clearance from squadron leader(his words, sorry blindfaith) he can post what rule it was supposed to reinforce.

 

[G2]

Not a catch.