I think the defense will be better than expected

casmith07

Attorney-at-Zone
Messages
31,538
Reaction score
9,312
I think it can and probably will be better. Leaps and bounds better? No. But I think it will improve from last year.

I still think we'll be among the bottom in yards allowed, but I think we'll be better in the red zone and will limit opponent scoring, and I think we'll limit big plays through the air with improved secondary chemistry.

All in all, I'm excited and anxious to see what we do on defense. I'm not expecting miracles, but I am pumped to see this team play.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

The Boognish
Messages
36,571
Reaction score
27,856
The only position that I am truly panicked about is the 1. Every other starter will be competent if not a game changer.

What I am praying for is by week 8 Hayden isn't on the roster and our DT depth looks like

Melton/McClain/Brent/Bishop

Our DE depth for the season will include Spencer and Lawrence

Selvie/Mincey/Crawford/Spencer/Lawrence

i get that its a big if but if we can get the above then our DL rotation has enough horses to work.

Between

Durant/Carter/Wilber/McClain/Holloman/Lawrence is fine at LB and not nearly as bad as people would have you believe

CB has Claiborne/Carr/Scandrick/Moore/Mitchell which is pretty good depth.

S is more problematic with Church/Wilcox/Heath/Hamilton/Dixon with depth that is either woefully inadequate or unprepared.

People just like carrying on and panicking when they are uncertain but I rewatched the last two months of the season when our defense truly was bad and the issues were lack of a pass rush sure because Ware was taking 50 snaps and couldn't move but also because we had coverage guys like Lawrence and Heath that were blowing and failing assignments repeatedly ie 3 out of 4 downs. It is frustrating to watch guys who don't know how to execute zone coverage see Kiffin keep calling it. Watching the preseason i didn't see that outside of Dixon and to a lesser extent Hitchens.
 

Bluestang

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,161
Reaction score
1,583
As if guys that proved to be nobodies in college and in the pros will all of sudden do something now that they are with the Cowboys.

There were some excellent points that were brought up earlier that are being ignored.

But I guess we can file that under the snark patrol commentary because it doesn't fit with the overall OP.
 

Chocolate Lab

Run-loving Dino
Messages
37,104
Reaction score
11,430
But key words there for Fuz, "last two months of the season". Why were they so bad then? Because like with very end of the season, people are hurt and backups are playing. Well guess what, a lot of the problem of terrible depth players we had last year will be there again this year, even if the names aren't exactly the same.

And I can't believe some are putting the blame on Kiffin for the defenses he called. If anyone thinks we're playing man to man all year long, they're crazy. Especially if and when our starting corners get dinged up.
 

waving monkey

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,540
Reaction score
14,930
How is it not worse when the 3 best players (by far) are gone... true the defense wasn't good with them, but that just speaks to how bad the rest of this "Defense" is.

To be clear I'm speaking of Lee Ware and Hatcher.

Ware wasn't all that last year we tend to forget.
COMBTOTALASTSACKFFFRYDSINTYDSAVGLNGTDPDSTFSTFYDSKB
2013 Regular Season4028126.00101000024120

Ware's production will be missed if he can stay on the field and he will for the first half of the season.
hatcher's production will be missed
Lee was hurt quit a bit and Rolando is going to be an able replacement. Don't sleep on him

I am not minimizing what your saying as much as their injury problems wouldn't help.
I think we'll get at or a little past what we produced last year.I might be wrong but
I think we had to move on. With those two guys that left we'd not gone any where anyway
and burdered with their cap numbers
 

Reverend Conehead

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,953
Reaction score
11,858
I would love for the OP to be right, but given everything that's happened, I think he's wrong. It's going to take some kind of miracle for this D to improve.

There is another factor people are overlooking that will make our defense better this year and it isn't even on the defense. We are going to have a very good O Line that is capable of controlling the clock in a lot of games. That's a huge factor and it was made much worst last year when we not only couldn't control the clock but had to rotate in street FA's at DL in an overworked defense.

That's a good point. Smart ball control, keeping your D off the field, can help rest a D and allow it to be at its highest level of effectiveness. However, that's IF this coaching staff actually does that. I was screaming at the TV last season in the Green Bay game for them to do that, but they had the brains of someone smoking crack and playing Madden. I have no doubt that our best previous coaches would have used ball control better in that game and others -- Landry, Johnson, and Parcells all understood how that works. Will Garrett (now with Linehan) do that now? I certainly hope so, but this year I'm not screaming myself hoarse if they don't. Unfortunately, from this coaching staff I've come to expect stupidity.

So they'll be 31 instead of 32?

I thought of that. I guess that's actually possible that we could have such a marginal improvement or we'll be at 31 simply by virtue of someone else sucking worse than we do.

I don't know of any.
You can basically flush any evaluation that says things are looking up.
We had the worst defense in team history and then lost all the best players from it. The people spinning it positive now will be here one year from now talking about how much better that defense is than this year's garbage. They'll be able to admit it then, but not now.

Unfortunately, you're probably right. There is a remote chance this D can end up way better than expected. A lot of unlikely things would need to happen. See my section titled: Grasping at straws.

I'd start by saying I don't think people expect McClain to be a superstar in the making. They hope and expect he'll be better than Hayden was last year, based off of OTAs and, largely, because xwalker took the time to look at some tape and thinks he looks promising and has done a nice job of saying so in many of the DL threads.
Other than that, I'd say the phrase 'better than expected' doesn't exactly set the bar too high, given expectations. Be careful not to fall into the trap where--because people characterize a player or position group so often as *not* being superstar or Super Bowl ready--you conclude that people *are* actually saying that. Otherwise, you end up in the Ben-Bass trap like we saw earlier in the week where people were trying to snarkily link to opinions that never actually existed and then had to pretend they were just to busy to find their support, after all.
This defense is going to be bad. It's been bad for years. We didn't do enough to improve it. The only real question is how bad. In the case of this thread, the OP thinks it won't be as bad as advertised. But note just how far out on the limb he was wiling to go:

"It will be a struggle without Scandrick for 4 games, but after that I think they can be a decent defense if no more big injuries occur."

In other words....'can be a decent defense with everybody back and no more big injuries' = not very far out on that limb.

I guess "not as bad as advertised" could mean better than 32nd in the league. Then 31st or 30th could make the OP actually right. Naturally, as Cowboy fans most of us are hoping that that the D can be good enough to give this team a shot at the playoffs. That's middle of the road. If this D is average -- around 18th, 17th, 16th -- then maybe we've got a playoff-bound team, not a championship caliber one, just a playoff team.

ATTENTION: Grasping at straws follows.

Under these conditions, this D can be decent or maybe even good.
1. Our draft ends up being a bonanza like the 1975 one.
2. Jerry pulls off a genius haul from waivers, players that their camp teams either overlooked or that just had too much talent at that position.
3. Lawrence is amazing when he comes back, despite missing camp.
4. The D line / linebackers we have are way more talented than it looks in preaseason and they gel later and kick serious butt.

That's my grasping at straws list. Feel free to add to it. I feel bummed about having to grasp at straws year after year. I would be delighted if this team surprised me. What I actually suspect will happen is a top 5 draft pick, which I hope the team uses wisely.
 

john van brocklin

Captain Comeback
Messages
40,151
Reaction score
45,285
Our offense will keep us in games. Our defense will lose it for us. I am predicting another 8-8 season. This all changes if Melton steps in and shows us 2012 production, Selvie has another 7 sack season, Spencer comes back by the second game of the season and shows us 2012 production, our 1 technique clogs up the middle (be it McClain or Brent), Rolando McClain plays like a top 10 pick, Claiborn plays like a top 10 pick, and Carr plays like a 50 million dollar corner.

Thats a lot of "IFS"
 

FuzzyLumpkins

The Boognish
Messages
36,571
Reaction score
27,856
As if guys that proved to be nobodies in college and in the pros will all of sudden do something now that they are with the Cowboys.

There were some excellent points that were brought up earlier that are being ignored.

But I guess we can file that under the snark patrol commentary because it doesn't fit with the overall OP.

You keep saying this but all you are doing is charaterizing their careers in derisive terms and dismissing them. I watched Selvie last year. I guess you are saying that he is going to do another disappearing act. I don't know that, I haven't seen him play this year much. I am guessing you haven't either.

McClain is a DT and stats are a lot less meaningful. You characterize McClain's college career one way but here is what scout.com said:

McClain is a very disruptive run defender that should be able to contribute immediately in a defensive line rotation. He gets off the ball quickly and has the foot speed to penetrate gaps on stunts. He also has fast strong hands to engage and disengage in an instant to get in running lanes and after the quarterback. He is not an experienced pass rusher at this point, but he has the potential to improve due to his quick feet and hands. McClain brings it on every down and he should not last past the second round.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/terrell-mcclain?id=2495311

He was a third round draft pick.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

The Boognish
Messages
36,571
Reaction score
27,856
But key words there for Fuz, "last two months of the season". Why were they so bad then? Because like with very end of the season, people are hurt and backups are playing. Well guess what, a lot of the problem of terrible depth players we had last year will be there again this year, even if the names aren't exactly the same.

And I can't believe some are putting the blame on Kiffin for the defenses he called. If anyone thinks we're playing man to man all year long, they're crazy. Especially if and when our starting corners get dinged up.

I didn't say all year. Rewatch the GB game and pay attention to Lawrence in the second half. Watch his stare at routes and watch completions completely clueless what to look for or how to respond to it. If you have a guy that cannot run a coverage and you keep on calling it anyway then yeah I am going to put that on the playcaller.

Accept reality as it is, and not try and force reality as it is not.
 

Chocolate Lab

Run-loving Dino
Messages
37,104
Reaction score
11,430
I didn't say all year. Rewatch the GB game and pay attention to Lawrence in the second half. Watch his stare at routes and watch completions completely clueless what to look for or how to respond to it. If you have a guy that cannot run a coverage and you keep on calling it anyway then yeah I am going to put that on the playcaller.

Accept reality as it is, and not try and force reality as it is not.

Why do you think he called zone? Because at least then you might make them burn some clock before they score. Put a talentless scrub like Lawrence on a back man to man and you could be looking at a 60 yard TD.

If you think simply calling different coverages will make bums like Lawrence into different players, then you really don't need to be lecturing people about reality.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

The Boognish
Messages
36,571
Reaction score
27,856
Why do you think he called zone? Because at least then you might make them burn some clock before they score. Put a talentless scrub like Lawrence on a back man to man and you could be looking at a 60 yard TD.

If you think simply calling different coverages will make bums like Lawrence into different players, then you really don't need to be lecturing people about reality.

You can make up all the stories about why and predictions all you want.

Fact is what actually happened is that Lawrence was out there and the Packers repeatedly threw into the zone he was supposed to protect over 5 series that all resulted in TDs. Not a single man call but a continuous stream of zones that Cam failed to execute. I don't see how you don't put that on the coach calling plays.
 

Bluestang

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,161
Reaction score
1,583
You keep saying this but all you are doing is charaterizing their careers in derisive terms and dismissing them. I watched Selvie last year. I guess you are saying that he is going to do another disappearing act. I don't know that, I haven't seen him play this year much. I am guessing you haven't either.

Selvie had a good half of the year and then disappeared the second half. His college career showed that he had potential but then he fizzled out the last two years before entering the draft. Sounds awfully familiar right?

Hello? Anybody home? If you think that this bunch is anything other than nobodies than more power to you. I've previously said the only guys that I have faith in are Melton and Crawford and those two are the ones that are coming off major injuries.


McClain is a DT and stats are a lot less meaningful. You characterize McClain's college career one way but here is what scout.com said:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/terrell-mcclain?id=2495311

The one plays a significant role in this defense. But let's be honest all four positions are pretty meaningful. Maybe you would see why the DBs are late to react to the opposing offense when the QB has no pass rush to worry about.

He was a third round draft pick.

As if draft choice played a part in how good you'll be in the NFL. Someone thought he had talent, but then had a dose of reality.

Claiborne anyone?
 

tm1119

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,941
Reaction score
8,681
He was a third round draft pick.

A 3rd round draft pick that was released before his rookie contract was even up....and then picked up and let go by 2 other teams in the next 3 years. But I forgot that star on the helmet miraculously turns other teams' castoffs into good players got the cowboys.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

The Boognish
Messages
36,571
Reaction score
27,856
A 3rd round draft pick that was released before his rookie contract was even up....and then picked up and let go by 2 other teams in the next 3 years. But I forgot that star on the helmet miraculously turns other teams' castoffs into good players got the cowboys.

He was a top 100 prospect for his class. There were comments as to his college career.

He played well for Houston as a rotation NT last season. I don't know how he actually played for Carolina in 2011. I have not seen a single snap and could only produce a statline.

I don't expect 'good' play. I expect competent play such that he doesn't get washed out on every run play like Hayden does.
 

Gaede

Well-Known Member
Messages
17,165
Reaction score
14,127
A 3rd round draft pick that was released before his rookie contract was even up....and then picked up and let go by 2 other teams in the next 3 years. But I forgot that star on the helmet miraculously turns other teams' castoffs into good players got the cowboys.

I have no idea why we have any expectations for this player. His production in college and early training camp has suddenly made him into a 'reliable' player. But I just see another Hayden. Journeyman discarded by several teams who can step in here and start because the situation is THAT bad.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

The Boognish
Messages
36,571
Reaction score
27,856
Selvie had a good half of the year and then disappeared the second half. His college career showed that he had potential but then he fizzled out the last two years before entering the draft. Sounds awfully familiar right?

Hello? Anybody home? If you think that this bunch is anything other than nobodies than more power to you. I've previously said the only guys that I have faith in are Melton and Crawford and those two are the ones that are coming off major injuries.

The one plays a significant role in this defense. But let's be honest all four positions are pretty meaningful. Maybe you would see why the DBs are late to react to the opposing offense when the QB has no pass rush to worry about.

As if draft choice played a part in how good you'll be in the NFL. Someone thought he had talent, but then had a dose of reality.

Claiborne anyone?

Once Ware hurt his quad against Detroit, teams quickly figured out they could single block Ware in pass protection. Selvie's sack production diminished as he only got two more sacks for the rest of the season. I think had Ware stayed healthy he would have easily gotten double digit sacks with all the single man blocking he saw.

Remember this was the time period that Hayden, Rayford, Wynn, and Brown were the rotation with Hatcher thrown in there when he was able to go. You can characterize this group as nobodies then fine but that is the defense we are talking about. Mincey for all of his flaws is strong enough to hold up in the run game. I don't see much difference between hobbled Ware and that. I think Mincey will beat single coverage. His game reminds me a lot of Kony Ealy's with that inside move.

Selvie not being able to routinely beat double teams means he is not a superstar but it doesn't mean that he is a bad player.

I will just need to wait and see on McClain.
 

Chocolate Lab

Run-loving Dino
Messages
37,104
Reaction score
11,430
I have no idea why we have any expectations for this player. His production in college and early training camp has suddenly made him into a 'reliable' player. But I just see another Hayden. Journeyman discarded by several teams who can step in here and start because the situation is THAT bad.

I have no idea why you're looking at his actual NFL production over three years when we have NFLdraftscout's 2011 rankings to go on.
 
Top