I think we have more than 6 wins this season if Cooper Rush starts week 1

[Havic]

It's not Apples to Apples. Going with Rush is insane. And I couldn't care less if Dak plays or not, this cult love affair for a back up is weird.

Similar production and results with a win / loss record while one is paid peanuts and the other is the highest paid player in the league. That’s the issue

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Granted I'm talking overall and not just offensive production but with Dak at QB the Cowboys averaged 20.3 PPG. With Rush at QB its 21.1 PPG. How we get there with each QB looks radically different.

There are a ton of factors that can be argued but overall the end result has been the same regardless of the quarterback. With Dak we beat two bad teams, quality teams ran us off the field, and we beat a good not great team in Pittsburgh. So far under Rush we have a couple wins over bad teams, mostly blown off the field against better teams, and beat a good not great team in Washington.

I'm not going to say that Dak is crap like the other poster, but one thing I believe Rush has done is shown that this team can have similar results without Dak and he isnt the must keep or you're screwed level of QB he was made out to be after an All Pro year. Dak is certainly a better overall arm talent, and has the athletic ability to extend plays. Rush is barely an NFL talent but runs the offense like an extension of the play caller. I don't think their is a right or wrong answer here as to who gives you the best chance to win. 90% of the time if you can hold an opposing team to 20 points or less either guy is going to be able to win you games. When you allow more than 20+ points Dak at least gives you a shot, but you're typically still going to lose those games. This year 5 of 6 wins come with allowing 20 or less, All of their losses have come by giving up more than 20. Last year which may have been Daks best of his career they were 1-6 when giving up more than 20, 11-0 when giving up 20 or fewer. With how this team is built the race to 20 is what matters the vast majority of the time.

overall? what's that mean. people want to forget everything else and just focus on the record. when it matters to their argument.
on the one hand people criticize Dak that he doesn't beat good team, on the other hand, they celebrate when Rush beats literally top 3 draft picking teams.
context is important.

I am not saying you, but everyone wants to tout hey rush is 8-4...well, 2 years ago he went 4-1, 3 year ago he barely beat the vikings with a lot of help.
this year, he is 3-3, and again has needed a lot of lucky help to get there.

and with Rush, the offense didn't average 21.1. the offense is averaging 15 pts/game...two of the TDs were special teams and one was defensive TD...or are those being attributed to Rush's being on the field some how? and lets not forget, he has scored 20, 20, 30 against bottom of the barrell defenses.

the end results are measured by how well you play offensively. not how well the team does (again, argument people like to make, that somehow the defense plays better when rush plays...its freaking assinine).
this team does not have similar results unless we play carolina, giants every week. other wise the results were 6 points and 40 yard passing against Philly. thank you to Aubrey's legs and 10 points against Texans, 7 of which coming in garbage time (as people like to call out).

we do not have a defense that can hold opponents to 20 points or less and if we did, I would still use Dak because he gives offense a better option to score more.

and people argue that the defense played worse because Dak had a whole bunch of 3 and outs. so the defense last year benefited by offense scoring so much, they got rested and the opposition was forced to be one dimentional and easier to defend....

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Similar production and results with a win / loss record while one is paid peanuts and the other is the highest paid player in the league. That’s the issue

context matters. one of them is averaging 15 points per game offensively, while playing two games against to two picking in top 3.
the other playing 4 teams in the playoffs. one was able to blow away a top 5 picking team, the other barely beat one and needed help from defense to score for him.
when one played playoff calibur teams, he sharted his pants, passing for 40 yards playing an entire game...how is that even possible. I can do better than that.

 

[Mikexike]

Only problem I see is, Dak needs to be a bus driver for this team but chooses to be the hero every play. Hence the turnovers.

Rush is a bus driver and is driving it as is, less turnovers and the offense/defense looks better.

 

[Chasing6]

6-8 and not even I think we have a chance at playoffs. Technically not eliminated but it’s not happening. That aside, we could technically be in the hunt still if Cooper Rush started this season. I think with Cooper Rush under center, this team would be 8-6 right now. We definitely beat the Falcons with Rush under center and I think there’s a chance we beat 49ers too. It pisses me off to be 6-8 right now. This team should still be in the hunt and that should make this fanbase sick.

I think we have more than 8 if Jerry is not the owner. How about that?

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Rush has a game of passing for 44 yards and for some strange reason people think he would’ve did better lol.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Only problem I see is, Dak needs to be a bus driver for this team but chooses to be the hero every play. Hence the turnovers.

Rush is a bus driver and is driving it as is, less turnovers and the offense/defense looks better.

Calling Rush or Dak a bus driver would imply this team has an identity and a plan. And they don’t. Their plan is to drop back and find the guy open on a hitch route

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

It doesn't matter honestly. The fact that we haven't really played that much worse with Rush under center as compared to the guy who was just made the highest paid player in NFL history shows just how terrible of a contract that was. I'll defend Jerry over a lot of things as I think he gets a lot of crap he doesn't deserve but there's no defending that.

The reason they don’t look different is for one Dak was having a bad year just like last year except he had a whole season to get right. Rush at his best is comparable to Dak at his worst.

 

[G2]

Similar production and results with a win / loss record while one is paid peanuts and the other is the highest paid player in the league. That’s the issue

Nope

 

[thunderpimp91]

overall? what's that mean. people want to forget everything else and just focus on the record. when it matters to their argument.
on the one hand people criticize Dak that he doesn't beat good team, on the other hand, they celebrate when Rush beats literally top 3 draft picking teams.
context is important.

I am not saying you, but everyone wants to tout hey rush is 8-4...well, 2 years ago he went 4-1, 3 year ago he barely beat the vikings with a lot of help.
this year, he is 3-3, and again has needed a lot of lucky help to get there.

and with Rush, the offense didn't average 21.1. the offense is averaging 15 pts/game...two of the TDs were special teams and one was defensive TD...or are those being attributed to Rush's being on the field some how? and lets not forget, he has scored 20, 20, 30 against bottom of the barrell defenses.

the end results are measured by how well you play offensively. not how well the team does (again, argument people like to make, that somehow the defense plays better when rush plays...its freaking assinine).
this team does not have similar results unless we play carolina, giants every week. other wise the results were 6 points and 40 yard passing against Philly. thank you to Aubrey's legs and 10 points against Texans, 7 of which coming in garbage time (as people like to call out).

we do not have a defense that can hold opponents to 20 points or less and if we did, I would still use Dak because he gives offense a better option to score more.

and people argue that the defense played worse because Dak had a whole bunch of 3 and outs. so the defense last year benefited by offense scoring so much, they got rested and the opposition was forced to be one dimentional and easier to defend....

I go by overall score instead of points from the offense because ultimately its a team game. Moving the chains matters. Avoiding turnovers matters. Running the offense efficiently matters. Field position matters. For an individual game yes I agree that we need to take some of these other factors you mentioned into deeper consideration, but as the sample size grows W/L record becomes more definitive and the defensive & special teams scoring evens out. This is why I personally dont have a major issue with the pro Dak crowd propping up his regular season W/L record but ignoring his playoff W/L record. Over a multi game period I'm less likely to worry about a defensive score factoring in or not giving an offense credit for a score because they started inside the opponents 5 after a turnover.

With the way this Cowboys team is built I don't think they really require a big gun slinger QB who can win shootouts. On occasion its needed and we can just look at last years Seattle game as evidence when Dak put the team on his back for the majority of the game. It sounds like thats the version of football you prefer and there is nothing wrong with that. Personally I think the Cowboys really are built both from a talent standpoint and schematically for a Cooper Rush type game manager only with a better arm. Neither answer is really right or wrong, I think within the Cowboys style of football in recent years the QB is simply not as big of a factor as it is within some other teams. The record this year seems to agree with that. With Dak we beat the 3 win Browns, the 2 win Giants and a playoff team in Pittsburgh. With Rush under center we beat 2 win Giants, the 3 win Panthers, and a likely playoff team in Washington.

Ultimately neither QB has played very well this year for very different reasons. In my mind the issue isnt a Dak vs Rush debate, Dak is clearly the more gifted QB. The issue is Dak played poorly enough this season to where we continue to have actual Dak vs Rush debates.

The debate I tend to try and push with the Dak and Rush data is more about how we over glorify the QB position. There are very few QBs who really win games for their teams these days. The vast majority of QBs are going to succeed or fail based on the talent levels around them. It seems increasingly rare where you have a QB like Payton Manning who you have super bowl hopes with but him getting injured leads to getting the top pick in the draft. QBs seems to be playing mostly to the talent levels of the rest of the roster and as QBs change teams at higher rates we are seeing less of an impact both on the team they left and the new team the go to.

I'm starting to write a book and honestly have gotten off topic to the point where I dont remember where we disagreed so I'm gonna just stop here and hope this makes sense lol.

 

[thunderpimp91]

The reason they don’t look different is for one Dak was having a bad year just like last year except he had a whole season to get right. Rush at his best is comparable to Dak at his worst.

Agreed. The real debate isnt Dak vs Rush. The debate is can Dak rebound after a down year in 2024. The debate is should the Cowboys look to start grooming a replacement. The debate is do the Cowboys have a real chance to compete in 2025 and should they restructure Daks deal in the offseason or not. There is a lot to debate in terms of Dak, but a Rush vs Dak is not a realistic debate. If Dak cant improve upon his 2024 performance we can only hope for 500 football next year. With Cooper Rush at QB the most you could hope for is 500 football next year. The difference is that we know Dak at least has a higher gear he has been able to shift into. I love a lot about Rushes game, and I appreciate what he has done for this team the last few years, but there is no question that his arm is barely up to NFL backup standards.

 

[CT Dal Fan]

The Cowboys have run the football better and have played better defense in the three games Rush has won thus far. This cannot be debated. Also the defenses Dallas has faced lately have been, for lack of a better term, sucky.

Having said that, if nothing changed the first eight games of the season, I don't think the Cowboys would have had a better record at all. In fact they'd likely be worse since, no matter what your opinion of Dak is, in no dimension is Rush a better quarterback.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

I go by overall score instead of points from the offense because ultimately its a team game. Moving the chains matters. Avoiding turnovers matters. Running the offense efficiently matters. Field position matters. For an individual game yes I agree that we need to take some of these other factors you mentioned into deeper consideration, but as the sample size grows W/L record becomes more definitive and the defensive & special teams scoring evens out. This is why I personally dont have a major issue with the pro Dak crowd propping up his regular season W/L record but ignoring his playoff W/L record. Over a multi game period I'm less likely to worry about a defensive score factoring in or not giving an offense credit for a score because they started inside the opponents 5 after a turnover.

With the way this Cowboys team is built I don't think they really require a big gun slinger QB who can win shootouts. On occasion its needed and we can just look at last years Seattle game as evidence when Dak put the team on his back for the majority of the game. It sounds like thats the version of football you prefer and there is nothing wrong with that. Personally I think the Cowboys really are built both from a talent standpoint and schematically for a Cooper Rush type game manager only with a better arm. Neither answer is really right or wrong, I think within the Cowboys style of football in recent years the QB is simply not as big of a factor as it is within some other teams. The record this year seems to agree with that. With Dak we beat the 3 win Browns, the 2 win Giants and a playoff team in Pittsburgh. With Rush under center we beat 2 win Giants, the 3 win Panthers, and a likely playoff team in Washington.

Ultimately neither QB has played very well this year for very different reasons. In my mind the issue isnt a Dak vs Rush debate, Dak is clearly the more gifted QB. The issue is Dak played poorly enough this season to where we continue to have actual Dak vs Rush debates.

The debate I tend to try and push with the Dak and Rush data is more about how we over glorify the QB position. There are very few QBs who really win games for their teams these days. The vast majority of QBs are going to succeed or fail based on the talent levels around them. It seems increasingly rare where you have a QB like Payton Manning who you have super bowl hopes with but him getting injured leads to getting the top pick in the draft. QBs seems to be playing mostly to the talent levels of the rest of the roster and as QBs change teams at higher rates we are seeing less of an impact both on the team they left and the new team the go to.

I'm starting to write a book and honestly have gotten off topic to the point where I dont remember where we disagreed so I'm gonna just stop here and hope this makes sense lol.

sorry, I think you just tried to move the goal post. yes the team wins, but how the team wins matters. if the offense is struggling at 15 points a game, then you need a lot of help from defense and offense to win games. you take those out of the equation. what did the unit do and what's the expectations from them. you need to factor in the context of who you are playing on the schedule, how they are playing and where they stand. all of that are important.

and 12 games over 4 years is not a large sample size. if anything this year he has had the largest sample size and clearly he is not any good. he is 3-3, with 2 wins against bottom feeders and an unlikely win because of two kick returns, which has a probability of 0.002% to happen in a game twice.....and a 0.05% to happen in any game.

and regarding turnovers, its not like Rush hasn't had turnovers. he has been fumbling and throwing interceptions.
and you keep moving the goal post, now, hey, defensive points should count!!!! QBs job is to run the offense.
"how did he do?"
" oh, the team scored 34"...
"ok, sounds great, looks like the offense was great"
"well, 14 point were from special teams"....

and I don't think this cowboys team was built for anything. they were just thrown together to meet the 53 man roster requirements and be above the salary cap floor.
Jerry had no plan but hope and thought that we end up competitive. he never imagined we are going to be this bad.

there is only one QB in the league that can win games on his consistently and that's Mahomes, very close second is Burrows.
with that said, all QBs need resources, need a supporting running game, need a defense because you can't win consistently if you are constantly in a shoot out. but your QB has to be capable and you be able to build with the right resources.

Evident this year is Rush is at least 5 points worse than Dak running an offense and one can argue he has had more better resources (cook coming back and coaches making Dowdle primary back). an OL that had multiple new starters now finally starting to jell and the rookie getting some experience at LT.

Peyton Manning, Brady, Mahomes are generational QBs. you can't go arguing that we need one of those, but you also can't skimp to players like Rush, because there is no way in hell that this cowboys team can succeed with a player like Rush. I mean just watching him after 6 games, his arm already looks tired and his velocity and accuracy drop significantly from 1st quarter to 4th. he can barely complete 50% of his passes. you need some level of competence. Rush is incompetent. no arguing.

 

[RonnieT24]

The Cowboys have run the football better and have played better defense in the three games Rush has won thus far. This cannot be debated. Also the defenses Dallas has faced lately have been, for lack of a better term, sucky.

Having said that, if nothing changed the first eight games of the season, I don't think the Cowboys would have had a better record at all. In fact they'd likely be worse since, no matter what your opinion of Dak is, in no dimension is Rush a better quarterback.

There is perhaps an outside possibility that they Cowboys would have been more patient with the run with Rush starting from the jump? Maybe.. but that's the only possible thing that might have changed .. Does it change the outcome of any of the games? I seriously doubt it. The Panthers have the 32nd ranked scoring defense in the league. The Giants are 20th. The Bengals are 31st. The Commodores are 16th and we still needed two special teams TDs to beat them. The only good defenses we've faced in the last 6 weeks were Philly (1st) and Houston (9th). We all saw how the offense looked against those two defenses. Anybody attempting to pretend the defenses faced in the first 8 weeks were similar to these chumps we've faced the last 4 weeks need they butt whupped. And to pretend that the defense actually showing up for the game hasn't been a huge change too? It's hard to take any who makes that argument seriously.

 

[Mikexike]

Running from the shotgun with dak is a problem, Running with Rush under center isn't

Why can't we run the ball under center with dak?

This reason itself is why you don't pay the QB 60 mil.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Agreed. The real debate isnt Dak vs Rush. The debate is can Dak rebound after a down year in 2024. The debate is should the Cowboys look to start grooming a replacement. The debate is do the Cowboys have a real chance to compete in 2025 and should they restructure Daks deal in the offseason or not. There is a lot to debate in terms of Dak, but a Rush vs Dak is not a realistic debate. If Dak cant improve upon his 2024 performance we can only hope for 500 football next year. With Cooper Rush at QB the most you could hope for is 500 football next year. The difference is that we know Dak at least has a higher gear he has been able to shift into. I love a lot about Rushes game, and I appreciate what he has done for this team the last few years, but there is no question that his arm is barely up to NFL backup standards.S

Agreed. Rush is just so physically limited the ceiling will always be low and I would say he has a high floor but that changes when I saw him have 44 passing yards in a game. I’m nervous about Daks physical ability….not concerned but nervous for sure and there’s nothing wrong with using a pick on a guy to back him up for the time being. I think you have to.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Running from the shotgun with dak is a problem, Running with Rush under center isn't

Why can't we run the ball under center with dak?

This reason itself is why you don't pay the QB 60 mil.

It’s 2024. Teams run from shot gun. It’s never been a problem for anyone else.

 

[RonnieT24]

Running from the shotgun with dak is a problem, Running with Rush under center isn't

Why can't we run the ball under center with dak?

This reason itself is why you don't pay the QB 60 mil.

Running out of any formation is a problem if the line don't block. Now that the line is blocking the running game miraculously is orders of magnitude better. Many of us here have been saying since training camp that the backs we have on the roster will be just fine as long as the line blocks. Seems like that group has been proven correct. Remove rookies and hampered old vet and insert hungry road graders and suddenly Rico is getting the second level untouched with regularity. It aint rocket surgery.

 

[Mikexike]

Agreed. Rush is just so physically limited the ceiling will always be low and I would say he has a high floor but that changes when I saw him have 44 passing yards in a game. I’m nervous about Daks physical ability….not concerned but nervous for sure and there’s nothing wrong with using a pick on a guy to back him up for the time being. I think you have to.

I pray they let the backups walk and draft a QB in any round please.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

I pray they let the backups walk and draft a QB in any round please.

Yeah I don’t think they will but they should. I think Lance is your backup but part of me feels like they want to pay Rush…this team is a mess.stuck in quicksand.