If you fans are in Sir Jerry's place and a player kneels during the anthem

[dogunwo]

Let me ask you this. If you were a business owner, would you allow your employees to protest the flag at your establishment or on a job site? If you owned a restaurant, would you allow your waiter/waitress to express his/her negative view of the flag or what he/she thinks it represents in your establishment?

People try to use this as an example all the time, but there are no other jobs outside of sports that sing the national anthem or salute the flag prior to work that day.

 

[Dodger12]

I can appreciate your point of view, but the argument that they should not protest because of the money that they make is as dumb as saying that a woman should tolerate abuse from a man because he pays all of the bills.

That's not my argument at all. They shouldn't protest while wearing the uniform and at the stadium representing the team. They want to protest at their home, on their own personal time, then have at it.

And it affects the team/game by the controversy it would bring to the team and locker room. Sooner or later, that stuff carries over onto the field.

 

[Dodger12]

People try to use this as an example all the time, but there are no other jobs outside of sports that sing the national anthem or salute the flag prior to work that day.

They are making a statement at work. I don't know why that's so hard to understand. It's not the place or the time to make that statement and it negatively affects your employer and the reputation of the NFL. It tarnishes the image. At the end of the day, it's a protest and you're trying to make a statement on your employer's time and their dime.

 

[dogunwo]

It tarnishes the image.

It only tarnishes the image to certain segment of people. Its curious why those people are the only feelings that are taken into account.

 

[Dodger12]

It only tarnishes the image to certain segment of people. Its curious why those people are the only feelings that are taken into account.

I'm not sure what you're getting at so please explain. But if you can't see the impact it's had on viewership and on the NFL's image, then I guess we'll just disagree.

 

[paladin]

People try to use this as an example all the time, but there are no other jobs outside of sports that sing the national anthem or salute the flag prior to work that day.

Are political protests actually allowed at your workplace?

 

[haleyrules]

If l were Jerry Jones...l would sack the GM.

 

[dogunwo]

Are political protests actually allowed at your workplace?

There are no "mandatory" shows of patriotism required at my workplace. You all who are using the workplace argument are equating kneeling to picketing, which is incredibly ridiculous. Kneelers are choosing to not participate in a "tradition", which is only disruptive to those who choose to be disrupted by it.

 

[Dodger12]

There are no "mandatory" shows of patriotism required at my workplace. You all who are using the workplace argument are equating kneeling to picketing, which is incredibly ridiculous. Kneelers are choosing to not participate in a "tradition", which is only disruptive to those who choose to be disrupted by it.

Let me ask you the same question I asked someone else earlier. If you were a business owner, would you allow your employees to "protest" or disrespect the flag in some way at your establishment or on a job site?

 

[LocimusPrime]

If you work for the us armed forces ( including civilian employees)

 

[LocimusPrime]

 

[LocimusPrime]

FYI patriotic is different from political.
Democrats, independents, and republicans can all be patriots!

 

[Idgit]

There are no "mandatory" shows of patriotism required at my workplace. You all who are using the workplace argument are equating kneeling to picketing, which is incredibly ridiculous. Kneelers are choosing to not participate in a "tradition", which is only disruptive to those who choose to be disrupted by it.

I don't like arguments that equate NFL players with workers in other industries, either.

I like (and agree with) your mandatory display of patriotism argument. I'd have no problem with that requirement being disallowed in the next CBA. I mean, I like that there are occasionally events like football games where we stand up as a group and show some patriotism, but it doesn't need to be a requirement.

On the other hand, NFL football players are high-profile employees who get paid a lot of money and who already have PR requirements. I don't think requiring them to not disrespect or even to refrain from not showing public respect for the anthem at the beginning of a game is unrealistic. There are very real PR and even advertising considerations at stake with this stuff. Owners like Jerry spend money and effort maintaining good standing with the military and on the perception that comes with that. They're advertisers and they pay money to leagues for military tributes. For the team owner to not want players messing with that in order to make a political statement on game day I don't think is unreasonable.

It's not a first amendment or right to speech issue. It's just saying there's a time and a place for certain things, and when your'e standing in my stadium with cameras on you on a platform created by NFL owners....that's not the time for you to make a political statement we know is going to be perceived really negatively by a significant proportion of the people watching. It's not taking sides, one way or the other. It's only asking the players not to use the platform the NFL gives them on game day do things specifically to alienate people in the audience.

 

[jday]

What do you do?
I would sit that player for one game, no matter who he or she is, and say next time you might sit 6 games.
Or do fans take your bombastic anthem not as seriously?

I honestly don't understand either side of this argument, to be honest.

On the one hand, you have people offended that people are not standing for the National Anthem. Why? How does their kneeling in any way impact your life in a tangible way? Despite having served in the Army, I'll be the first to say that no one owes me anything for my service...not even appreciation for it at the end of the day. I volunteered to do what I thought was right at the time. End of story.

I will, however, accept your appreciation graciously; I would never turn someone away that feels moved to tell me that they appreciate my service. But by that same token, I do not feel in any way that someone kneeling during the Anthem is in any way a shot at me...and I say that regardless of their reason to kneel. It could be a good reason or a bad reason. I don't care. That aren't me. They aren't my children. They aren't my wife. They aren't my problem. And if more people thought that way, less wars would occur, which in turn would require less men to give their life.

On the other hand, you have these guys kneeling during the anthem thinking they are affecting positive change. And yet police brutality and all the other various causes remain the same issue today as they were yesterday. And since us humans will always be imperfect, I really don't see an end to it in sight...especially because some millionaire decided to take a knee during the anthem.

Oh sure, they are putting a spot light on the issue, but is it the right light? I honestly don't know. From my perspective, I don't see how you can fix the problem of police brutality; but I doubt kneeling during the anthem during a football game is going to stay the hand of a police officer who intends to participate in brutality. It's not like he will be holding his baton over his head about to bring it down on a defenseless citizen and mid swing think, "But wait, players are kneeling during my precious Anthem to stop me from doing this...perhaps there is a better way to handle my anger issues."

From my view, the negativity behind this whole situation is not on the players that choose to kneel during the anthem and not on the people who hate them for it, but the media who is acting like instigators to create news on days were they is no news. Without the media, I doubt many people would even notice players were kneeling.

 

[dogunwo]

I don't like arguments that equate NFL players with workers in other industries, either.

I like (and agree with) your mandatory display of patriotism argument. I'd have no problem with that requirement being disallowed in the next CBA. I mean, I like that there are occasionally events like football games where we stand up as a group and show some patriotism, but it doesn't need to be a requirement.

On the other hand, NFL football players are high-profile employees who get paid a lot of money and who already have PR requirements. I don't think requiring them to not disrespect or even to refrain from not showing public respect for the anthem at the beginning of a game is unrealistic. There are very real PR and even advertising considerations at stake with this stuff. Owners like Jerry spend money and effort maintaining good standing with the military and on the perception that comes with that. They're advertisers and they pay money to leagues for military tributes. For the team owner to not want players messing with that in order to make a political statement on game day I don't think is unreasonable.

It's not a first amendment or right to speech issue. It's just saying there's a time and a place for certain things, and when your'e standing in my stadium with cameras on you on a platform created by NFL owners....that's not the time for you to make a political statement we know is going to be perceived really negatively by a significant proportion of the people watching. It's not taking sides, one way or the other. It's only asking the players not to use the platform the NFL gives them on game day do things specifically to alienate people in the audience.

This is a very well thought out and appreciated response. It was not emotional, nor assuming that everyone shared your same sensibilities.

This is the first time that I have seen anyone on this board use the almighty dollar as a reason. I agree with a lot of what you said. If someone were to come out and acknowledge that its about money (I understand why they won't), I can see that more. Advertisers like the idea of the "all American" attitude. Its why JJ Watt is a marketing machine. Fans are the ones saying that This whole thing about disrespecting the flag and the military needs to stop being parroted. Also, this idea that it is extra disrespectful to the country that gave them the opportunity to make a lot of money is silly. As I have said in another thread, that's as silly as saying a woman should accept "abuse" because her man pays all the bills.

(I know people are going to want to argue what "abuse" is, but people feel persecuted for different reasons)

I do agree that it would be reasonable if it was made a job requirement for the reasons you stated above, although I wouldn't be entirely comfortable with it. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses do not sing the National Anthem or salute the flag. Would they be allowed an exemption from such a policy? Then if you allow that, how can one argue against any other personal beliefs?

 

[dogunwo]

Let me ask you the same question I asked someone else earlier. If you were a business owner, would you allow your employees to "protest" or disrespect the flag in some way at your establishment or on a job site?

The starting point of your question is invalid because I don't agree that they are disrespecting the flag or anyone else for that matter.

 

[Dodger12]

The starting point of your question is invalid because I don't agree that they are disrespecting the flag or anyone else for that matter.

Would you agree it's a protest then because that was the either/or of my question to you. Would you allow this type of "protest" as an employer?

 

[Dodger12]

I like (and agree with) your mandatory display of patriotism argument. I'd have no problem with that requirement being disallowed in the next CBA. I mean, I like that there are occasionally events like football games where we stand up as a group and show some patriotism, but it doesn't need to be a requirement.

Is it (patriotism) currently a requirement or mandatory under the CBA? I don't think so but I could be wrong if you could show me the rule.

This won't be addressed under the CBA. It's bad for business. The NFL, as employers, have every right to not allow protests of any kind by players at the stadium and in uniform. Their place of employment is not the forum for these activities. And I firmly believe everyone has the right to believe what they want and protest on their own time.

 

[Tabascocat]

I say let those who want to kneel or whatever continue to do so. Eventually, they will weed themselves out of the NFL. Once a few average players can't find employment, others will notice and be less inclined to disrespect our flag

FWIW, I see both sides to this but it is stupid to alienate at least half of the country/fans. I imagine most fans watch football to escape the politics during the week. I do not want to see it on my relaxing days from reality. Just my two cents........

 

[Rockdoc]

Let me ask you the same question I asked someone else earlier. If you were a business owner, would you allow your employees to "protest" or disrespect the flag in some way at your establishment or on a job site?

absolutely not!