If you were a coach and could hire Bill Parcells or Wade Phillips as DC...

[Hostile]

He had no problems with ownership until kraft bought the team his last season there. He didnt and doesnt like kraft. End of story he never had a problem with other owners. Another talking point that most use but they do not even know the history.

And for anyone who thinks he didnt do alot with the jets, sure whatever. Go look at their turnaround. They played denver in that championship game without their pro bowl starting corner aaron glenn and they almost pulled that out, then in 99 they go 8-8 with ray lucas at qb.

His team whipped wade phillips teams behind with ray lucas, oh and they whipped our behind in texas stadium in 99 with ray lucas. WHat does it say about the coach across the field when he loses to a ray lucas led jets team?

Ray Lucas played defense?

J/K, but people keep bringing up his overall coaching, etc. This thread is about him as the DC.

 

[DallasEast]

Once upon a time, my answer would have been Parcells, but after witnessing his stop in Dallas, I would now be forced to say Phillips. My decision would not favor Parcells because the NFL did not outgrow him, but general player attitudes have.

These are two different types of defensive coordinators. Both coaches teach their players to be smart and execute their assignments, but what separates both men is that Parcells demands his players to also play through all physical obstacles like pain and injuries. He would mold his players not unlike an Army drill sergeant would.

If a Parcells defensive player were asked to run through a wall, they would probably do so without hesitation--while a Phillips defensive player might ask first what the wall was made of or how thick it was. In years gone by, Parcells could pry that sheer level of determination out of a defensive player such as Willie McGinest, Ted Johnson, Otis Smith, Mo Lewis, Jason Ferguson, Jim Burt, Leonard Marshall, Pepper Johnson, Carl Banks, Harry Carson, Elvis Patterson, Lawrence Taylor, etc., etc. Nowadays? Not as much.

I played high school football for a coach with the same mindset as Parcells who demanded the same level of commitment from his players. I watched some players wilt under that kind of pressure. Some people just can't take it or are willing to take it. Their morale shrinks. Some didn't play as hard as they could have. Others simply quit altogether. Still, if a player can endure that kind of pressure and thrive because of it, they will succeed by taking their game to level higher than that of their opponent. I just wished my coach had been a lot smarter in the X's and O's department also.

It's a mindset. It's sheer willpower. It's hard-nosed, down-and-dirty, football at its best. It's the Parcells way, but it's no longer necessary in today's NFL. If your defensive players are smart enough and execute their plays more often than the opposing offense does theirs, it's more likely your defense will be dominant enough. Parcells' coaching style simply enters an additional x-factor into that equation for an added advantage.

So, as I said earlier, with today's players, I would have to say B.) Phillips. Final answer.

 

[03EBZ06]

I had to laugh when a person calls a HC with two SB rings and future HOF'er overrated.

 

[ZeroClub]

As DC? Wade in a heartbeat.

 

[Frosty]

You understand Parcells worked for Kraft one season right?

Yeah I no, but I was hughe Pats Fans back then (Jim Plunkent/Stever Grogan and even the Bledsoe days) and alot of us thought the owner-coach conflict cost them the big game.....

 

[theebs]

Ray Lucas played defense?

J/K, but people keep bringing up his overall coaching, etc. This thread is about him as the DC.

My point was a parcells coached team with ray lucas at qb beat up on wade phillips bills team, wade phillips defense.

Your right though, I veered off topic, in reply to some of what was said. Having said that though I dont even think people realize he was a defensive coordinator/linebackers coach in college and then in ny.

Its not an accident the guy has been surrounded by very good linebackers. Just like its not an accident wade phillips teams get alot of pressure and sacks. Good teaching.

 

[percyhoward]

I know this wasn't the question, but I'd make Parcells GM, Phillips DC, and take my chances with whomever Parcells hired as HC.

 

[theogt]

I know this wasn't the question, but I'd make Parcells GM, Phillips DC, and take my chances with whomever Parcells hired as HC.

Indeed. That's the best scenario possible.

 

[BouncingCheese]

Wade Phillips Defense seems more malleable and therefore, better in that he can change the play calling and personell to fit the needs and limitations and strengths of the players and scheme. I mean, Phillips had a 227 lb linebacker playing inside in a 3-4 last season, and he is (possibly) looking at an undersized Burnett playing the same pos... even with that said Phillips may decide to put James at that same position, a player who's skill-sets are totally different from Burnetts.

BP was and is always set on having big, strong lbs and like his system set JUST SO. It works for him but I honestly think it is outdated and overly simplistic, especially since many of the teams have much faster and athletic players on offense IMHO than when BP was coaching in NY with the giants and in NE.

Sign me up for WP.

 

[TEK2000]

Who would it be?

Just curious.

What the heck has Parcells ever done as a DC? He had Belichik running his great defenses.

Wade Phillips has had his greatest success as a DC!

This is a no brainer to me.

 

[skinsscalper]

We all seem to forget that the Parcells of the Giants, NE & Jets also had Belicheck as his DC and a pretty good OC too. Parcells obviously trusted them and allowed them to call their side of the ball game mostly as they saw fit. With us, he had a DC he didn't know and same with some of our other coaches. Plus Parcells hadn't coached in a few years before he agreed to come to the Cowboys.

I still think he was a pretty good evaluator of talent cause we sure have lot better players then we had with JJ calling the shots. He was a good motivator for some players but with others it method might have been lacking--we shall know for sure in several months. Also think the players were unwilling/unable admit when they were injuried and continued to play--maybe to the detriment of the team. He's an old school coach and the game may be changing but at least he ensured we got character players and I don't have to worry like Bengal fans do re whose next on their hit parade of arrests.

I think we needed Parcells and he gave the best he could. We didn't win a playoff game, but at least we had 3 winning seasons in 4 years and that tops Campo. Still a disappointment and not what we expected/hoped. I'm hoping Phillips as HC/DC & Garrett as OC work out and that we have the talent to at least go 11-5 with at least 1 playoff win, but we've all been disappointed so many times.....

Being COMPLETELY objective this post nails it right on the head.

This team is in a different universe with Parcells' entire touch on the organization. We'll never know what would have happened had he stayed. Or if Ellis had stayed in the lineup. It's no surprise the defense fell off...or crumpled when we lost the ability to rush the passer well enough. I think Bill could have done better even that said. But he's conservative and overall that served him well.

Without Bill Parcells I'd hate to see what this organization would look like. I'd bet big money it wouldn't be at a point where people around the league were talking SB. Jerry maybe but not the way Dallas is being looked at by the rest of the league and media (yes even ESPN some).

OTOH, I think it was a perfect time for Wade to arrive. I'm not talking out both sides of my mouth either. Bill admits his way runs thin when you aren't winning. Hopefully Wade's way works for awhile and 'hits the spot'. And hopefully a lot of people's optimistic outlooks for this defense, including mine, are truly deserved.

If Wade is immediately successful it will be because he inherited a team ready to take off. And because Wade is probably the best person available to take it to the next step.

I don't think Wade could have taken what was handed to Bill and make it what was handed to him. And I and everyone else will never know if Bill could have taken this team to the next step. Wade doesn't have to do better than Bill would or could or should have done. All he has to do is win.

To answer your question I'd rather have Bill as HC and Wade as DC as long as Wade had been around long enough to gain Bill's trust.

Can't argue with a single word here.

SS

 

[BouncingCheese]

I don't agree. I know his defense does work. I know it didn't work as well as we'd all like but it worked here and certainly elsewhere.

This team is in a different universe with Parcells' entire touch on the organization. We'll never know what would have happened had he stayed. Or if Ellis had stayed in the lineup. It's no surprise the defense fell off...or crumpled when we lost the ability to rush the passer well enough. I think Bill could have done better even that said. But he's conservative and overall that served him well.

Without Bill Parcells I'd hate to see what this organization would look like. I'd bet big money it wouldn't be at a point where people around the league were talking SB. Jerry maybe but not the way Dallas is being looked at by the rest of the league and media (yes even ESPN some).

OTOH, I think it was a perfect time for Wade to arrive. I'm not talking out both sides of my mouth either. Bill admits his way runs thin when you aren't winning. Hopefully Wade's way works for awhile and 'hits the spot'. And hopefully a lot of people's optimistic outlooks for this defense, including mine, are truly deserved.

If Wade is immediately successful it will be because he inherited a team ready to take off. And because Wade is probably the best person available to take it to the next step.

I don't think Wade could have taken what was handed to Bill and make it what was handed to him. And I and everyone else will never know if Bill could have taken this team to the next step. Wade doesn't have to do better than Bill would or could or should have done. All he has to do is win.

To answer your question I'd rather have Bill as HC and Wade as DC as long as Wade had been around long enough to gain Bill's trust.

I've always said that and I agree with you 100 percent.

Good post.

 

[Hostile]

I had to laugh when a person calls a HC with two SB rings and future HOF'er overrated.

I have to laugh when people keep ignoring the fact this isn't talking about him as a HC, but as a DC.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I just have to laugh...

 

[Cowboy4ever]

I think BP is at his best when he can concentrate his efforts on one aspect of a team. I think he would make a great DC if he wanted to be one again. When he had his greatest success as a HC, he had great coachs around him and he let them coach. He concentrated on motativating the team and as someone else said, he was more of a CEO type coach. While in Dallas, he ran everything, which I think was his downfall. I don't think he trusted his staff here at all, even though he put them together. I think BP is one of the greatest Football minds to ever walk on the sidelines. IF he was a DC he would be great. I would take BP over WP anyday of the week.

 

[Ashwynn]

Based on recent history, I would go with Phillips. He brings fire and a promise to free the players. If his pomise is true, and this is what gets the job, the promise to do this or that, then Phillips hand down.

Having the luxary of hindsight on Parcells, I saw a stubborn old man who could not join the modern football world and insisted on playing schemes that were 20 years old dependent on having a superman at LB. He refused to adapt to his players strengths instead insisting they adapt to his scheme. They did not have the skill set to do that. He could not, or would not see this.

Anyone would be better then a mule of a coach that cant get with the times. Personally I am loving the promise of Phillips, hearing the players get excited about playing under him. That really has breathed more life into me then any amount of bluster the regime could have mustered with any other coach. I am really pumped about this coming year. I love defense. My fav player of all time is Randy White. Its time Dallas had that dominant D we hung our hat on in the 70's and 90's.

 

[WoodysGirl]

He had no problems with ownership until kraft bought the team his last season there. He didnt and doesnt like kraft. End of story he never had a problem with other owners. Another talking point that most use but they do not even know the history.

I've read that they've since settled their differences.

As for who I'd prefer as a DC, honestly don't know. Wade makes lemonade out of lemonade. But Parcells has had success with every team he was a part of building.

 

[jobberone]

It didn't work here at all, and there have been no other versions of the this defense ever, so no, it hasn't worked elsewhere.

It worked well enough here for that defense to be ranked in the top five. How can you say it didn't work? Yes it didn't finish there. I say Parcells lost his pass rush when Ellis went down.

You can argue teams finally caught up with the defense and ripped it apart with or without Ellis. Maybe we would have lost but not in the manner we did. No team, no defense, no scheme, no coach can win without a pass rush. We beat the SB winner with the same defense before Ellis went down. That will be my counter.

You can argue we would have had a pass rush without Ellis if we were more aggressive. I agree we could have been more aggressive. We could have blitzed more but you can't say RW, Watkins, and all would have faired better. Nor could you guarantee the team would have done better. There is a big difference in playing your four up front and getting a pass rush and having to get your pass rush by sending more.

Again. Many here think throwing Bill under the bus and being more aggressive is a magic bullet. Well, I got news for you. Bill didn't go from being recognized by enough people to go to the HOF to being suddenly stupid and not good enough. In the last third of the year no less. It took him four years to get this team to be able to play well enough to be a SB contender. It didn't happen overnite. And when he lost a critical player the team didn't play well enough and he didn't accomplish that goal.

Phillips will get to use the same players. The same ones Bill amassed and the same ones Wade has said makes up a pretty talented roster with no holes. And the first thing they did was get a pass rusher. You say safety was the first addressed. Yeah, Hamlin is supposed to be good. Yep. He's so good we locked him up....with a one year contract.

Don't get me wrong. I didn't like everything Bill did. And I believe Bill cost us the Seattle game. But beating Seattle and having the team to go on and win the SB is not the same. We'll see how well the team does with a "new scheme". But he'll do it with basically the same team on defense.

Personally I think Wade will do well and he was certainly the best replacement out there for us. Go read my posts before we got him.

Ask yourself this. Would Wade have done better than Parcells when Ellis went down? And then the ultimate question that the thread addresses. Would Wade have gotten this team to the same place Bill did if he'd been who replaced Campo?

 

[theogt]

It worked well enough here for that defense to be ranked in the top five.

No, it didn't.

How can you say it didn't work?

Because it didn't work.

Yes it didn't finish there.

You can't just chunk out an entire 1/3 of the season and say well, the rest of the games were nice, so it was a pretty good defense.

I say Parcells lost his pass rush when Ellis went down.

What explains the passrush in the Colts game? Ellis wasn't there. The players commented on the different scheme we ran (after numerous fans commented on it) and that worked -- without Ellis. Unfortunately, we didn't go back to that.

You can argue teams finally caught up with the defense and ripped it apart with or without Ellis.

You mean, you can argue that teams figured out how to completely dismantle the defense.

Maybe we would have lost but not in the manner we did. No team, no defense, no scheme, no coach can win without a pass rush.

No team, no defense, no scheme, no coach will have a decent passrush playing the way that Parcells did.

We beat the SB winner with the same defense before Ellis went down. That will be my counter.

Your counter is bunk. Ellis wasn't in that game.

You can argue we would have had a pass rush without Ellis if we were more aggressive. I agree we could have been more aggressive. We could have blitzed more but you can't say RW, Watkins, and all would have faired better. Nor could you guarantee the team would have done better. There is a big difference in playing your four up front and getting a pass rush and having to get your pass rush by sending more.

You can't guarantee anything. Would the team, in all likelihood, have been better off with a less conservative scheme? Well, DUHHH!!!!

Again. Many here think throwing Bill under the bus and being more aggressive is a magic bullet. Well, I got news for you. Bill didn't go from being recognized by enough people to go to the HOF to being suddenly stupid and not good enough. In the last third of the year no less. It took him four years to get this team to be able to play well enough to be a SB contender. It didn't happen overnite. And when he lost a critical player the team didn't play well enough and he didn't accomplish that goal.

You're conflating two issues. Did Bill rebuild this team? Of course he did. Only an idiot would refuse to see that. But we're not talking about GM Bill -- we're talking about DC Bill. I'll take the former and not the latter, please.

Phillips will get to use the same players. The same ones Bill amassed and the same ones Wade has said makes up a pretty talented roster with no holes. And the first thing they did was get a pass rusher.

Ok. We're replacing a 32 year old, injured player. What's your point?

You say safety was the first addressed. Yeah, Hamlin is supposed to be good. Yep. He's so good we locked him up....with a one year contract.

I didn't say safety was the first addressed or anything else about the safety situation. You must be referring to someone else.

Don't get me wrong. I didn't like everything Bill did. And I believe Bill cost us the Seattle game. But beating Seattle and having the team to go on and win the SB is not the same. We'll see how well the team does with a "new scheme". But he'll do it with basically the same team on defense.

This is the greatest thing about this season. We get to settle the "scheme" argument. We get to see what an aggressive scheme can do with the same talent. It's a football nerd's wet dream.

Personally I think Wade will do well and he was certainly the best replacement out there for us. Go read my posts before we got him.

Glad we can agree.

Ask yourself this. Would Wade have done better than Parcells when Ellis went down?

Probably, yes.

And then the ultimate question that the thread addresses. Would Wade have gotten this team to the same place Bill did if he'd been who replaced Campo?

Not sure, but again you're conflating two separate issues. This isn't about Bill as a GM. This is about Bill as a DC. They're two totally separate positions.

 

[5Stars]

What explains the passrush in the Colts game? Ellis wasn't there. The players commented on the different scheme we ran (after numerous fans commented on it) and that worked -- without Ellis. Unfortunately, we didn't go back to that.

Where was Ellis in that game, theogt? Was he injuried, or are you saying that Parcells did not use him in that game?

Honest question...