Illogical Nonsense

theebs

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wayne_motley;1350436 said:
I think it's unrealistic to think a guy who has never been a coordinator isn't going to struggle as HC, when he hasn't had HC experience either. I think it's unrealistic to think a guy who has been nothing more than a QB coach for 2-3years is ready to run a successful offense as the main guy, when the previous top guys on the staff have already walked.

Rivera at least has the coordinator's experience...I don't see how he helps us on either side of the ball as he has not experience in the 3-4...maybe he'd be a good HC, but he'd have inexperienced coordinators too????

If Jason Garrett was actually ready to come in and run the offense, I think Norv Turner would never be considered...I think we'd hire Wade Phillips in hopes of seeing our defense get the pressure that SD gets.

rivera is well schooled in a couple of different defenses. They want to put williams in the box more, so keeping bowles here he could run the defense.

I dont think defensive scheme should be the clincher in hiring or not hiring.

Your logic on jason garrett not being able to be the offensive coordinator is confusing to me? How long does he have to be an assitant position coach?

Tom landry was a coordinator for the giants for 3 years when hired? worked out ok for him.

Jon gruden was wr coach for 3 years then became an OC

mike holmgren was a qb coach for 3 years before becoming the OC

I think 2 or 3 years is plenty of time.

and please dont preach to us about jerry jones abilities as a GM. He is considered a joke around the league.

People dont want to work for him and that should tell you all you know.
 

Chuck 54

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theebs;1350431 said:
Rivera interviewed in pittsburgh and arizona

Again, how much time is enough as a coordinator? is 3 years enough?

I answered that question, but Rivera wasn't given either job, so why is he the best for Dallas when Arizona and Pittsburgh didn't want him? Did he interview during the season?
 

dbair1967

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Chocolate Lab;1350441 said:
Singletary interviewed with Atlanta, from what I read.

And I actually agree with a lot of what you say. Experience would be better with a talented team like this, without a doubt. BUT, if the experience one HC has is one of poor discipline, lack of leadership, and LOSING, I'd rather take a chance on an inexperienced guy. After all, who was a better head coach last year, Art Shell or Eric Mangini? Joe Gibbs, or Sean Payton?

I'm all for Wade Phillips. He's a winning head coach, his specialty is exactly in what we need, and he could even get along with Jerry.

But no, let's find an old crony with a losing record because he's comfortable and he comes highly recommended by Troy Aikman.

why is it that everyone says Norv's only being considered because of Aikman? I've heard a number of other people come out and say the same thing..is it because some of you kinda like the idea of bashing Troy some in the case that a coach is hired that you dont like?

Jimmy Johnson has said in two different interviews that he'd recommend Jones hire Norv...so did Johnston...so did Irvin...so did some others...it isnt just troy, who by the way has said nothing publicly that I've heard

David
 

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TunaCaserole;1350437 said:
I think the whole experience thing is being blown out of proportion by some.
Both Singletary and Garrett each have 12 years of experience in the league and 4 years of coaching experience. That's 16 years of NFL experience. Both were great students of the game!

I think Garrett will be great at the X's and O's. Singletary may not be as great, but he will bring the fire and enthusiasm that this team has lacked for many years. I want to see a team that comes out each and every week and leaves everything on the field -- reminiscent of the game against Indy this year. I don't expect a team to go 16-0, but I can't stand when we lose and our guys don't seem to have any heart. That's happened more than I can count over the last 10 years.

4 total years of coaching experience for your HC and your OC....I'm sorry....for me that's crazy in a combo....the fact that they played the game doesn't prepare them for coaching.
 

theebs

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wayne_motley;1350451 said:
I answered that question, but Rivera wasn't given either job, so why is he the best for Dallas when Arizona and Pittsburgh didn't want him? Did he interview during the season?

Interviewed during the bye week.

Darren woodson said today he must not be overwhelming people in his interviews, but he is a good coach.
 

dbair1967

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wayne_motley;1350451 said:
I answered that question, but Rivera wasn't given either job, so why is he the best for Dallas when Arizona and Pittsburgh didn't want him? Did he interview during the season?

he interviewed with Arizona and Pitt the week the Bears were off, the 1st week of the playoffs

I think he interviewed with somebody last yr too, but cant recall which team

David
 

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dbair1967;1350456 said:
why is it that everyone says Norv's only being considered because of Aikman? I've heard a number of other people come out and say the same thing..is it because some of you kinda like the idea of bashing Troy some in the case that a coach is hired that you dont like?

Jimmy Johnson has said in two different interviews that he'd recommend Jones hire Norv...so did Johnston...so did Irvin...so did some others...it isnt just troy, who by the way has said nothing publicly that I've heard

David

Who cares if Norv's former friends are recommending him? Would you expect them to say something negative about him in the press? Where are the players from Oakland and Washington calling him a great coach?
 

2much2soon

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Jerry Rice's comments about Norv's lack of discipline scare me the most.
I could live with Norv's track record, possibly believing he could turn his results around in Dallas with the talent on board and the timing of the hire.
But if he really did let Woodson run wild in Oakland then I don't want a thing to do with him as a HC.
Not that there are a lot of bad guys on the team but there is one I would be concerned about.
 

Dale

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wayne_motley;1350445 said:
Dale, I think Norv is the proof that Jason Garrett is a smart young coach with upside, but clearly NOT a guy who's ready to run the offense...I expect Norv to run the offense and call plays despite Garrett having the title. And does anyone think Jason will do more for Romo's development than Norv?

If Garrett was truly ready, I think Wade is the top choice too...but I seriously doubt that Jason is actually ready to run the show.

But what becomes of the rest of the team? If you're hiring Norv to run the offense, then he should be the the offensive coordinator. Now, I realize that's not an option. But I don't believe it's a wise decision to hire a man with a horrid head coaching record to be your head coach on the basis that he's a good coordinator.

I guess my point is I don't think the Cowboys should have hired an offensive coordinator not yet ready for the job, and then to compensate for that by hiring an ill-equipped head coach, but one capable of calling plays in lieu of the coordinator.

Just seems like a recipe for a short-term disaster, despite Garrett's obvious long-term promise.
 

Chuck 54

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Chocolate Lab;1350441 said:
who was a better head coach last year, Art Shell or Eric Mangini? Joe Gibbs, or Sean Payton?

.

I agree 100%....but Payton and Mangini were 100% more prepared to be head coaches than Singletary or Jason Garrett, imo.
 

Chocolate Lab

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No way, Troy is one of my favorite players ever. I've said many times that seeing him throw in training camp is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen an athlete do... Or anyone do.

But that doesn't make him a GM, or qualified to advise one.

Actually though, I wouldn't blame Troy at all. Just Jerry for listening to him.

And it's weird arguing, if you call it that, with so many people I usually agree with. But Norv simply makes zero sense to me, and the thought of him coaching us truly makes me sick.
 

Dale

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wayne_motley;1350451 said:
I answered that question, but Rivera wasn't given either job, so why is he the best for Dallas when Arizona and Pittsburgh didn't want him? Did he interview during the season?

Not sure I follow this line of reasoning.

Is it really a negative on Rivera's resume that he twice interviewed but did not get head coaching positions?

If so, what does it say of Norv Turner, whom it has been widely said will not get another head coaching opportunity in this league unless the Cowboys give him one? Doesn't seem like a ringing endorsement, either.
 

theebs

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2much2soon;1350463 said:
Jerry Rice's comments about Norv's lack of discipline scare me the most.
I could live with Norv's track record, possibly believing he could turn his results around in Dallas with the talent on board and the timing of the hire.
But if he really did let Woodson run wild in Oakland then I don't want a thing to do with him as a HC.
Not that there are a lot of bad guys on the team but there is one I would be concerned about.

I second that. If a clown like woodson can be such a problem and then leave and not be a problem at all in green bay, that should speak volumes.

Side note here too, Norv turner was also a defensive backs coach, he coached ronnie lot, dennis smith and jeff fisher in 1981 so you think if he could get along with any defensive players it would be the secondary.
 

dbair1967

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2much2soon;1350463 said:
Jerry Rice's comments about Norv's lack of discipline scare me the most.
I could live with Norv's track record, possibly believing he could turn his results around in Dallas with the talent on board and the timing of the hire.
But if he really did let Woodson run wild in Oakland then I don't want a thing to do with him as a HC.
Not that there are a lot of bad guys on the team but there is one I would be concerned about.

the Oakland thing is probably a really bad example though...the inmates CLEARLY ran the asylum there, and they have ALOT of inmates on that team...plus they have the biggest moron in the NFL as an owner..of course the players ignore the HC and do whatever they want...

David
 

smarta5150

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dbair1967;1350456 said:
why is it that everyone says Norv's only being considered because of Aikman? I've heard a number of other people come out and say the same thing..is it because some of you kinda like the idea of bashing Troy some in the case that a coach is hired that you dont like?

Jimmy Johnson has said in two different interviews that he'd recommend Jones hire Norv...so did Johnston...so did Irvin...so did some others...it isnt just troy, who by the way has said nothing publicly that I've heard

David

I heard the same thing from the players and coaches you listed above.

If the core guys who were part of our 90s dynasty recommend Norv then call them ALL wrong, not just Aikman.

I dont understand why people keep using the same old "Well Troy loves him" line.
 

2much2soon

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theebs;1350476 said:
I second that. If a clown like woodson can be such a problem and then leave and not be a problem at all in green bay, that should speak volumes.

Side note here too, Norv turner was also a defensive backs coach, he coached ronnie lot, dennis smith and jeff fisher in 1981 so you think if he could get along with any defensive players it would be the secondary.

Wasn't Norv also coaching the 'skins when Westbrook almost beat Stephen Davis's career to death?
 

Chuck 54

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theebs;1350450 said:
jerry jones abilities as a GM. He is considered a joke around the league.

People dont want to work for him and that should tell you all you know.

I'll respectfully disagree with you on both counts...I think you're totally wrong.

If you were right, we wouldn't be having this discussion about guys who are begging for the chance to coach Jerry's team....Al Davis struggled to find candidates....everyone seems to be coming out to seek working for JJ, even freakin' Dan Reeves.
 

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dbair1967;1350477 said:
the Oakland thing is probably a really bad example though...the inmates CLEARLY ran the asylum there, and they have ALOT of inmates on that team...plus they have the biggest moron in the NFL as an owner..of course the players ignore the HC and do whatever they want...

David


That explains why a Skins player said nearly the exact same thing. I guess 'the man' is really out to get poor Norv.
 

Chuck 54

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Dale;1350465 said:
But what becomes of the rest of the team? If you're hiring Norv to run the offense, then he should be the the offensive coordinator. Now, I realize that's not an option. But I don't believe it's a wise decision to hire a man with a horrid head coaching record to be your head coach on the basis that he's a good coordinator.

I guess my point is I don't think the Cowboys should have hired an offensive coordinator not yet ready for the job, and then to compensate for that by hiring an ill-equipped head coach, but one capable of calling plays in lieu of the coordinator.

Just seems like a recipe for a short-term disaster, despite Garrett's obvious long-term promise.

I agree...and I don't know that Garrett isn't ready. I'm giving JJ the benefit of the doubt because if he is ready, I'd hire Wade Phillips before any of the guys being mentioned.
 

doomsday81

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wayne_motley;1350406 said:
I do not intend to insult anyone or demean anyone's opinion or right to express it, but some of the nonsense about whom should be hired as HC of the Cowboys and the attacks on JJ as reverting to his meddling ways are beyond my scope of comprehension.

1. We have a playoff team with decent talent, a team that clearly underachieved, a team that should be fairly close to be seriously competitive. Yet people want to hire guys like Singletary and Rivera to be head coach? These are guys who have never been there...Singletary has very little coaching experience. Even Rivera has never run a defense other than the one Lovie Smith designed, a 4-3 by the way. This team is not that easily converted to a good 4-3. We have only one viable candidate with any experience for DT...Ferguson...and he has little mobility. Everyone else is a projection to the position.

At DE, we have Ellis and Ware, and all the guys behind them are oversized DE's selected specifically for the 3-4.

At LB, we have some talent, but are we sure we have 3-4 guys who run well enough to take our defense to a higher level? We could draft and use FA to rectify this, but then we're neglecting the offense and the OL yet another year.

I'm shocked by the idea that some think we'd be ready to go forward with a HC with no experience, especially those who suggest Singletary who has not coordinated either side of the ball, and people want to turn the offense over to Jason Garrett who also has very little experience and probably no offensive playbook of his own yet as a guy with 2 years as QB coach....holy crap.

If we were going to hire a defensive HC, hiring a 4-3 guy instead of Wade Phillips who has done great things in SD would be a highly questionable move.

2. Why is Jerry Jones catching so much grief for considering hiring a HC that would be great for the offense and Romo, a guy who actually has a little experience, though with far less talented teams...Norv Turner...and the most qualified and exciting 3-4 prospect in the league, also with HC experience...Wade Phillips. People want to look at their records in limited stints with inferior teams...yet they are excited about hiring guys who coach defenses that don't match our personel, guys with no HC experience, and then turn the offense over to a guy with two years a QB coach in Miami?

Jerry Jones IS the gm of the Cowboys, but people confuse that role with his position as owner...like it or not, he is both. But the reality is that the hiring of coaches and support staff, and bringing in a young guy to hopefully groom...Jason Garrett...are what gm's all across the NFL do. People talk like Rivera and Singletary are attractive candidates, yet not a single gm in the NFL who needed new coaches in Miami, Pittsburgh, Oakland, Arizona, ??? even gave Singletary an interview as far as I know....certainly he wasn't a serious candidate even in Oakland. And not a single one of those teams, several who were interested in hiring young guys with limited experience were willing to wait on Rivera...if he was all that great, don't you think some of those gm's could have waited? Would it have hurt them any more than Dallas if he was such an attractive candidate?

Come on guys...It's one thing to hire an inexperienced guy like Whizzenhunt...at least he'd been running the offensive side of the ball for a SB champion for a coach who was defensive oriented, and he showed great creativity in using guys like Randall El. But the other HC hires???? Not a single gm in the NFL wanted Singletary, and not a single gm saw Rivera as an attractive enough candidate to wait on him. He wants to be a HC...you don't think he'd even take the job in Oakland if Al Davis had waited on him?

These guys either are not ready for the job or they simply aren't that attractive to other gms, so why lambast Jerry Jones for how he's handling the situation? He's not acting as a meddling owner...he's acting in his capacity as gm, and he's not doing anything any differently than many other gm's.

3. I would support Norv or Wade more than anyone else mentioned. Wade Phillips would step in and take our 3-4 to a new level, just as he's done in SD...he'd get faster results than anyone trying to come in with knowledge limited to the 4-3 and limited experience as a DC, much less trying to do both that and oversee the team as HC. But there's no way we're going to turn our offense and T.O. over to Jason Garrett with almost no experience, not yet.

If we hire Norv, we get a great teacher of QB's, a great x's and o's guy, and a guy who's coached and called plays in the SB with great success when given talented players, which we have...a guy who isn't all that exciting, but at least has some experience as HC...and with Norv, we can turn the defense over to someone who already knows the players and the system, hopefully getting them to at least play to their capabilities with his hands untied by the defensively conservative Parcells.

We're not a team starting over and retooling. It makes more sense to bring in a guy who's at least proven in running his side of the ball and has a little experience in the HC job and in dealing with the big show in Dallas. It won't take much to get this team further than Parcells took it. Norv Turner is like any other coach...either he has success and we don't want to change two years from now, or he doesn't get us over the hump but Romo greatly benefits from his tutilage, and we're in the Cowher or some other market in two years...maybe even the Jason Garrett market.

All head coaches groom young gifted coaches, if that's what Jason is, for HC positions. It's not going to be a threat to Norv Turner...he plans to be successful in Dallas, and if he's not, part of that failure will be partly Jason Garrett's fault as well...Jason has not been guaranteed a future HC gig, and Norv is not "training him" to take over any more than Parcells, Bellichek, or Dungy have prepared guys to become HC's.

Relax...enjoy. Hiring the guys being suggested as alternates to Norv or Wade are simply ridiculous unless we were a team starting at the bottom that could afford to let a coach grow with it. Our team is somewhat close, and we need a coach who can run one side of the ball, not a young, inexperienced coach with two inexperienced coordinators under him....My gosh, the players would probably know the systems better than the coaches.

I can see not being as excited about Turner or Phillips as much as if it were Cowher, but I prefer either over most of the guys the other teams, led by their gm's, hired, and I certainly prefer it with our team right now over having 2-3 guys who would all be learning on the job.

If some of you got your wish today and Singletary were hired as HC, JG as OC, and an internal hire as DC, do you realize all three may not have much more than 10 years coaching experience all put together, and not one of them would have ever done the job he's in before? To me, that's scary.

When you mentioned that Jones was the owner and GM, I stopped reading. That's the real problem with this franchise. No offense but any point brought up after that is meaningless. You said like it or not? Ask Raiders fans if they like it. They haven't won a Super Bowl in 24 years. The Cowboys are going on 12 years by the way, just in case you're counting. Like it or not.
 
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