Illogical Nonsense

[Chuck 54]

Not sure I follow this line of reasoning.

Is it really a negative on Rivera's resume that he twice interviewed but did not get head coaching positions?

If so, what does it say of Norv Turner, whom it has been widely said will not get another head coaching opportunity in this league unless the Cowboys give him one? Doesn't seem like a ringing endorsement, either.

Not my point...in my original post, I was questioning bashing JJ as gm if he is underwhelmed by the same guys that all the other gm's passed on as well. I don't know that any of these guys wouldn't be good Head Coaches for us...I'm just saying it's not fair to totally bash JJ when plenty of other teams could have hired these same guys and simply weren't as impressed as guys on this board seemingly are.

 

[theebs]

I'll respectfully disagree with you on both counts...I think you're totally wrong.

If you were right, we wouldn't be having this discussion about guys who are begging for the chance to coach Jerry's team....Al Davis struggled to find candidates....everyone seems to be coming out to seek working for JJ, even freakin' Dan Reeves.

thats fine.

How many GM's were seeking out phillips, turner or Reeves?

its a bogus argument

I am not sure rivera/singletary or garret are the right candidates either, but geez.

If you think jerry is a guy good football people want to work for you are sorely mistaken.

Funny I didnt see pittsburgh interviewing turner.

Coaches and gm's are like a fraternity they know all the stuff that goes on behind the scenes, there is no way you could convince me a football guy would want this job now.

Parcells came here because jerry was desperate. Jerry should be applauded for that hire. Parcells could have any job he wanted at that point and he came here and made it work with jerry.

I dont think you will ever see that again.

Honestly I wish I could root for jerry jones but he has done so much negative that you have to assume he will blow it again.

 

[Chuck 54]

When you mentioned that Jones was the owner and GM, I stopped reading. That's the real problem with this franchise. No offense but any point brought up after that is meaningless. You said like it or not? Ask Raiders fans if they like it. They haven't won a Super Bowl in 24 years. The Cowboys are going on 12 years by the way, just in case you're counting. Like it or not.

The "like it or not" wasn't meant as a smart aleck comment, just a fact that many of us don't like but can't change. It is what it is, but whether we like all his decisions or not, I don't think JJ has done anything or passed on any candidates that other gm's haven't also done.

BTW, he has to get credit and blame...name me another owner and gm who has 3 SB rings. And there are a lot of teams that have been much longer than 12 years, some never even playing in the game.

 

[MONT17]

If some of you got your wish today and Singletary were hired as HC, JG as OC, and an internal hire as DC, do you realize all three may not have much more than 10 years coaching experience all put together, and not one of them would have ever done the job he's in before? To me, that's scary.

Nice thread... Reminds me of 89!!!


Hey I think most of the excitment is due to the fact BP will not be the coach... I think people are more excited by a HEAD COACH who doesnt look like he just left a funeral!!!

 

[Chuck 54]

thats fine.

How many GM's were seeking out phillips, turner or Reeves?

its a bogus argument

I am not sure rivera/singletary or garret are the right candidates either, but geez.

If you think jerry is a guy good football people want to work for you are sorely mistaken.

Funny I didnt see pittsburgh interviewing turner.

Coaches and gm's are like a fraternity they know all the stuff that goes on behind the scenes, there is no way you could convince me a football guy would want this job now.

Parcells came here because jerry was desperate. Jerry should be applauded for that hire. Parcells could have any job he wanted at that point and he came here and made it work with jerry.

I dont think you will ever see that again.

Honestly I wish I could root for jerry jones but he has done so much negative that you have to assume he will blow it again.

JJ was owner and gm for 3 SB rings...that's pretty good, but you are right, he's made lots of bad moves that hurt the team, and I wish he wasn't the gm, but he's better than many others, Matt Millan for one.

I can't defend JJ's decisions, but in your comments you lump rivera and singletary into the group of bad football people since only bad ones would want to work for Jerry...if they are crappy too, and I don't really think that, then who really cares which one gets hired?

I respect your opinions on everything except the final point...I think Jerry Jones could hire any coach he wanted who was in the market...there will never be a shortage of candidates for the job...that's a fact....there are plenty of NFL teams with owners and gms who don't support the coaches financially or commit to spending money on good players....with all his faults, JJ is attractive to most coaches because they know he wants to win, not just make money, and he'll spend it.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

I answered that question, but Rivera wasn't given either job, so why is he the best for Dallas when Arizona and Pittsburgh didn't want him? Did he interview during the season?

The problem with Rivera was that he couldn't go back for a second interview with either due to obligations to the Bears. Both also ended up going with people who are less experienced and less successful than Rivera and both also signed contracts that put them near the very bottom of the payscale.


You do understand that of the vacancies filled this year, none of them would have been hired in Dallas.

Blank and Atlanta decided to go the college route - Something that Jones doesn't seem inclined to do again.

Bidwell and Arizona basically gave the job to the lowest bidder. They tried to hire Sherman until he asked for legitimate HC money.

The Rooneys and Pittsburgh told Grimm he had the job and then backtracked to a coordinator with less NFL experience than even Garrett.

Davis and Oakland almost couldn't find anyone willing to work there before settling on a college coordinator whose only qualification seems to be that his father's a decent coordinator in the NFL.

 

[Chuck 54]

not ignoring any future discussion, but going to bed....5:15 comes earlier every morning .

Thanks for the discussion. I have high hopes of another playoff experience next year and at least a 10-6 season, no matter who gets hired.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Both Singletary and Rivera have had at least two previous interviews for coaching gigs.

I think they have been listed except one last year with Singletary and the Lions.

Just because they did not get the job does not mean they are not ready.

I am sure there are many coaches he took a few times before they got the first HC job.

HOWEVER...taking a two time loser at HC, no matter where he was at and the circumstances behind it, and saying he is the better choice at HC is a little backwards to me.

So it seems like people would rather settle on a proven loser instead of someone who has not gotten the chance to prove themselves.

Futhermore people forget that position coaches have been hired for HC before. Andy Reid is one that turned out pretty good.

IF you are close, IF you have a team that it appears a noted authoritarian who is his careers end and does not have the strength to go on (hench his retirement) and that guy had trouble getting his players to play right...what in the world makes people think a guy like norv who different players from THREE different teams have questioned his ability to be a HC that keeps players in line...why would you want that guy?

Seriously. Why would you want a two time loser and a guy that is known for being soft on players and letting them get away with things.

If TO is willing to do some of the silly things he did this season with Bill at the helm, and it has been noted that he tends to get worse in his second season...how in the world does anyone expect norv to be able to control him?

Furthermore if Norv sticks to his previous ways he will feature the ground game more than the passing game. Does anyone remember Troy having multiple seasons of huge passing and TD numbers. In all of the years that the triplets were playing in Dallas I think Irvin only led the league ONCE in one of the three major WR categories. Catches, Yards and TDs and only once IIRC did he lead the league and that was catches.

YET how many times did we see the run game featured under Norv? That is his bread and butter.

So..those that think TO will magically be happy all the time because he will be getting the ball a whole bunch because Norv will find a way to get him the ball...I say go back and look and remember that norv was always about the run game first.

There are only two good reasons to hire norv as a HC...One is because JJ is familiar with him...which could actually also be a negative because Jerry knows what he can do with Norv that he would not do with Bill.

The other is to teach Garrett to teach Romo and teach Garrett to be an OC.

That is the ONLY two reasons I can think of that are good reasons for hiring Norv.

However sadly the bad reasons outweigh the good reasons.

Also...please for the love of whatever people find holy explain to me why many of the people who whined and complained about Bill...are the very same ones who seem to be endorsing or making excuses for Norv.

Sorry guys...I don't care how you slice it, Norv is not a good hire at this point for the cowboys.

Now I am hoping beyond hope that some how he helps get this team to the Superbowl or some playoff wins. However I am curious how long it takes some of these people that bashed bill and are endorsing norv before they start doing the same and bashing Norv.

Because Bill, with all of his flaws and shortcomings with this team, had a much larger job to do than Norv will.

Norv is just not a good hire. The only way norv could be a good hire is if we got a proven DC to take control of that defense and if Jerry bucks up and tells the team that they will listen to norv or they will pay dearly.

Man alive the idea of that guy as the HC of the cowboys almost makes me ill.

It is a pathetic thing IMO when we have to settle for a two time losing retread that has little to no HC leadership ability and has let his former teams walk over him from the coach on down...and he is walking into a situation where Jerry has had a history of doing similar things and some of our current players need someone who will put the fear in them and set them on fire.

I don't think Singletary has the EXP I would prefer, I do think Rivera does...however I would still rather give either one of those guys a chance over Norv.

Ugg...I think I am done for the night. I will probably have nightmares of Norv and Jerry.:

 

[Chuck 54]

The problem with Rivera was that he couldn't go back for a second interview with either due to obligations to the Bears. Both also ended up going with people who are less experienced and less successful than Rivera and both also signed contracts that put them near the very bottom of the payscale.


You do understand that of the vacancies filled this year, none of them would have been hired in Dallas.

Blank and Atlanta decided to go the college route - Something that Jones doesn't seem inclined to do again.

Bidwell and Arizona basically gave the job to the lowest bidder. They tried to hire Sherman until he asked for legitimate HC money.

The Rooneys and Pittsburgh told Grimm he had the job and then backtracked to a coordinator with less NFL experience than even Garrett.

Davis and Oakland almost couldn't find anyone willing to work there before settling on a college coordinator whose only qualification seems to be that his father's a decent coordinator in the NFL.

I actually have high hopes for Whizenhunt...I think he might be the best hire of all the earlier coaches. We'll see.

 

[theebs]

not ignoring any future discussion, but going to bed....5:15 comes earlier every morning .

Thanks for the discussion. I have high hopes of another playoff experience next year and at least a 10-6 season, no matter who gets hired.

I will second that.

Win the division, get a home playoff game and win

I will root for whoever does that...

 

[DipChit]

If some of you got your wish today and Singletary were hired as HC, JG as OC, and an internal hire as DC, do you realize all three may not have much more than 10 years coaching experience all put together, and not one of them would have ever done the job he's in before? To me, that's scary.

Yup, I been saying that for a week.

And even if you swap out Singletary for like Norv or Wade it still doesnt sound much better because they arent proven to be particularly good HC's even though they gave it a couple whirls.

Not like you have some Manning or Brady or Brees at the helm either.

You'd really be rolling the dice if you otherwise had visions of competing.

Not saying it couldnt be done.. but not too comfortable about finding out.

 

[baj1dallas]

Do you think that was a good hire? They lost their OC and Cowher. They got a young HC who may turn out to be good for the long haul, but do you expect them to be a playoff team next season? I don't.

And let's remember that Parcells gave them a head start...they selected Tomlin without even caring to interview Singletary or Rivera????

Whatever we think about it, we don't know anything about Tomlin...we can post numbers and guess, but we don't know how players respond to him, we don't know the level of respect he gets from coaches for his ability to gameplan or teach or make game adjustments.

So much of this is opinion formed without facts...but I bet if we looked hard enough we could catalog a file about every major prospect with respected NFL opinions and then have a real debate, instead of just picking a favorite and arguing because we have nothing better to do.

 

[Sasquatch]

If some of you got your wish today and Singletary were hired as HC, JG as OC, and an internal hire as DC, do you realize all three may not have much more than 10 years coaching experience all put together, and not one of them would have ever done the job he's in before? To me, that's scary.

Very scary, but I think people are willing to take a huge risk since none of the experienced candidates appeal to them. I don't think that's wise considering we are a playoff caliber team now. We may no longer by the time it takes one of these inexperienced coaches to get steady on their feet.

Personally, I'm willing to give Norval another chance, despite his singularly unimpressive record. Jerry, being a smart and competitive man, surely posed many of the same questions fans have been asking here. I'm assuming that if Norv gets the job he satisfactorily addressed these concerns. Jerry might be crazy but his passion for winning is not in doubt.

Perhaps we should invite him to field some questions at the Zone to reassure some of our more skeptical brothers and sisters?

 

[stealth]

Phillips and Turner have been around the block and bring that experience to the table whereas the other guys like Single, Garret, Rivera, etc. lack the experience.

thank you sir, you are a warrior, a poet, and a true man.


I want singletary now, having thought about the options I think he has the most upside with jason as our OC I would feel pretty good about that team.

 

[smarta5150]

thank you sir, you are a warrior, a poet, and a true man.


I want singletary now, having thought about the options I think he has the most upside with jason as our OC I would feel pretty good about that team.

Anytime.

I dont know why the original poster didnt just sum it up into 15 words.

 

[Mr Cowboy]

My meaningless opinion, the more I think about it, the more I like Singletary.

I truelly believe that this team is on the cusp and was very near last year as well. The thing that did this team in was stupid penalties that we had for the past three years and were never fixed. And the lack of emotion and fire down the stretch.

I have no doubts that Singletary will have the team emotionally ready and very motivated. He was a motivational speaker, so he knows how.

We need a respected disciplianarian who can light a fire under the team's butt.

If this was a rebuilding team, I wouldn't want someone like Singletary or Garrett for HC, but the talen is here, we just need someone who can keep them focused and motivated to take the next step, and I think sinlgetary is the man.

Just IMO!

 

[BotchedLobotomy]

I'm waiting for the movie to come out on that post. No way am going to spend two weeks reading that novel.

 

[blindzebra]

I do not intend to insult anyone or demean anyone's opinion or right to express it, but some of the nonsense about whom should be hired as HC of the Cowboys and the attacks on JJ as reverting to his meddling ways are beyond my scope of comprehension.

1. We have a playoff team with decent talent, a team that clearly underachieved, a team that should be fairly close to be seriously competitive. Yet people want to hire guys like Singletary and Rivera to be head coach? These are guys who have never been there...Singletary has very little coaching experience. Even Rivera has never run a defense other than the one Lovie Smith designed, a 4-3 by the way. This team is not that easily converted to a good 4-3. We have only one viable candidate with any experience for DT...Ferguson...and he has little mobility. Everyone else is a projection to the position.

At DE, we have Ellis and Ware, and all the guys behind them are oversized DE's selected specifically for the 3-4.

At LB, we have some talent, but are we sure we have 3-4 guys who run well enough to take our defense to a higher level? We could draft and use FA to rectify this, but then we're neglecting the offense and the OL yet another year.

I'm shocked by the idea that some think we'd be ready to go forward with a HC with no experience, especially those who suggest Singletary who has not coordinated either side of the ball, and people want to turn the offense over to Jason Garrett who also has very little experience and probably no offensive playbook of his own yet as a guy with 2 years as QB coach....holy crap.

If we were going to hire a defensive HC, hiring a 4-3 guy instead of Wade Phillips who has done great things in SD would be a highly questionable move.

2. Why is Jerry Jones catching so much grief for considering hiring a HC that would be great for the offense and Romo, a guy who actually has a little experience, though with far less talented teams...Norv Turner...and the most qualified and exciting 3-4 prospect in the league, also with HC experience...Wade Phillips. People want to look at their records in limited stints with inferior teams...yet they are excited about hiring guys who coach defenses that don't match our personel, guys with no HC experience, and then turn the offense over to a guy with two years a QB coach in Miami?

Jerry Jones IS the gm of the Cowboys, but people confuse that role with his position as owner...like it or not, he is both. But the reality is that the hiring of coaches and support staff, and bringing in a young guy to hopefully groom...Jason Garrett...are what gm's all across the NFL do. People talk like Rivera and Singletary are attractive candidates, yet not a single gm in the NFL who needed new coaches in Miami, Pittsburgh, Oakland, Arizona, ??? even gave Singletary an interview as far as I know....certainly he wasn't a serious candidate even in Oakland. And not a single one of those teams, several who were interested in hiring young guys with limited experience were willing to wait on Rivera...if he was all that great, don't you think some of those gm's could have waited? Would it have hurt them any more than Dallas if he was such an attractive candidate?

Come on guys...It's one thing to hire an inexperienced guy like Whizzenhunt...at least he'd been running the offensive side of the ball for a SB champion for a coach who was defensive oriented, and he showed great creativity in using guys like Randall El. But the other HC hires???? Not a single gm in the NFL wanted Singletary, and not a single gm saw Rivera as an attractive enough candidate to wait on him. He wants to be a HC...you don't think he'd even take the job in Oakland if Al Davis had waited on him?

These guys either are not ready for the job or they simply aren't that attractive to other gms, so why lambast Jerry Jones for how he's handling the situation? He's not acting as a meddling owner...he's acting in his capacity as gm, and he's not doing anything any differently than many other gm's.

3. I would support Norv or Wade more than anyone else mentioned. Wade Phillips would step in and take our 3-4 to a new level, just as he's done in SD...he'd get faster results than anyone trying to come in with knowledge limited to the 4-3 and limited experience as a DC, much less trying to do both that and oversee the team as HC. But there's no way we're going to turn our offense and T.O. over to Jason Garrett with almost no experience, not yet.

If we hire Norv, we get a great teacher of QB's, a great x's and o's guy, and a guy who's coached and called plays in the SB with great success when given talented players, which we have...a guy who isn't all that exciting, but at least has some experience as HC...and with Norv, we can turn the defense over to someone who already knows the players and the system, hopefully getting them to at least play to their capabilities with his hands untied by the defensively conservative Parcells.

We're not a team starting over and retooling. It makes more sense to bring in a guy who's at least proven in running his side of the ball and has a little experience in the HC job and in dealing with the big show in Dallas. It won't take much to get this team further than Parcells took it. Norv Turner is like any other coach...either he has success and we don't want to change two years from now, or he doesn't get us over the hump but Romo greatly benefits from his tutilage, and we're in the Cowher or some other market in two years...maybe even the Jason Garrett market.

All head coaches groom young gifted coaches, if that's what Jason is, for HC positions. It's not going to be a threat to Norv Turner...he plans to be successful in Dallas, and if he's not, part of that failure will be partly Jason Garrett's fault as well...Jason has not been guaranteed a future HC gig, and Norv is not "training him" to take over any more than Parcells, Bellichek, or Dungy have prepared guys to become HC's.

Relax...enjoy. Hiring the guys being suggested as alternates to Norv or Wade are simply ridiculous unless we were a team starting at the bottom that could afford to let a coach grow with it. Our team is somewhat close, and we need a coach who can run one side of the ball, not a young, inexperienced coach with two inexperienced coordinators under him....My gosh, the players would probably know the systems better than the coaches.

I can see not being as excited about Turner or Phillips as much as if it were Cowher, but I prefer either over most of the guys the other teams, led by their gm's, hired, and I certainly prefer it with our team right now over having 2-3 guys who would all be learning on the job.

If some of you got your wish today and Singletary were hired as HC, JG as OC, and an internal hire as DC, do you realize all three may not have much more than 10 years coaching experience all put together, and not one of them would have ever done the job he's in before? To me, that's scary.

How much NFL experience did Jimmy and company have in 89?

Had Jimmy and his staff had todays roster out of the gate, we wouldn't have waited until 92 to win it.

Hiring proven guys only means you are hiring somebody who has failed in the past, otherwise they'd still have a job.

 

[chinch]

OP is littered with too much "illogical nonsense" to quote and reply.

i see others swiftly corrected some of the glaring stuff

 

[Rack]

Both Singletary and Rivera have had at least two previous interviews for coaching gigs.

I think they have been listed except one last year with Singletary and the Lions.

Just because they did not get the job does not mean they are not ready.

I am sure there are many coaches he took a few times before they got the first HC job.

HOWEVER...taking a two time loser at HC, no matter where he was at and the circumstances behind it, and saying he is the better choice at HC is a little backwards to me.

So it seems like people would rather settle on a proven loser instead of someone who has not gotten the chance to prove themselves.

Futhermore people forget that position coaches have been hired for HC before. Andy Reid is one that turned out pretty good.

IF you are close, IF you have a team that it appears a noted authoritarian who is his careers end and does not have the strength to go on (hench his retirement) and that guy had trouble getting his players to play right...what in the world makes people think a guy like norv who different players from THREE different teams have questioned his ability to be a HC that keeps players in line...why would you want that guy?

Seriously. Why would you want a two time loser and a guy that is known for being soft on players and letting them get away with things.

If TO is willing to do some of the silly things he did this season with Bill at the helm, and it has been noted that he tends to get worse in his second season...how in the world does anyone expect norv to be able to control him?

Furthermore if Norv sticks to his previous ways he will feature the ground game more than the passing game. Does anyone remember Troy having multiple seasons of huge passing and TD numbers. In all of the years that the triplets were playing in Dallas I think Irvin only led the league ONCE in one of the three major WR categories. Catches, Yards and TDs and only once IIRC did he lead the league and that was catches.

YET how many times did we see the run game featured under Norv? That is his bread and butter.

So..those that think TO will magically be happy all the time because he will be getting the ball a whole bunch because Norv will find a way to get him the ball...I say go back and look and remember that norv was always about the run game first.

There are only two good reasons to hire norv as a HC...One is because JJ is familiar with him...which could actually also be a negative because Jerry knows what he can do with Norv that he would not do with Bill.

The other is to teach Garrett to teach Romo and teach Garrett to be an OC.

That is the ONLY two reasons I can think of that are good reasons for hiring Norv.

However sadly the bad reasons outweigh the good reasons.

Also...please for the love of whatever people find holy explain to me why many of the people who whined and complained about Bill...are the very same ones who seem to be endorsing or making excuses for Norv.

Sorry guys...I don't care how you slice it, Norv is not a good hire at this point for the cowboys.

Now I am hoping beyond hope that some how he helps get this team to the Superbowl or some playoff wins. However I am curious how long it takes some of these people that bashed bill and are endorsing norv before they start doing the same and bashing Norv.

Because Bill, with all of his flaws and shortcomings with this team, had a much larger job to do than Norv will.

Norv is just not a good hire. The only way norv could be a good hire is if we got a proven DC to take control of that defense and if Jerry bucks up and tells the team that they will listen to norv or they will pay dearly.

Man alive the idea of that guy as the HC of the cowboys almost makes me ill.

It is a pathetic thing IMO when we have to settle for a two time losing retread that has little to no HC leadership ability and has let his former teams walk over him from the coach on down...and he is walking into a situation where Jerry has had a history of doing similar things and some of our current players need someone who will put the fear in them and set them on fire.

I don't think Singletary has the EXP I would prefer, I do think Rivera does...however I would still rather give either one of those guys a chance over Norv.

Ugg...I think I am done for the night. I will probably have nightmares of Norv and Jerry.: