In our division who scares you the most?

[riggo]

I'm not suggesting that's going to happen, either. I just take issue with the notion that it's impossible for Eli to NOT dramatically improve next year. That is not a given. And if he has another year like last year, and Tiki is not completely dominant again, the Giants will struggle.

A big improvement is needed, considering Tiki is 32, IMO. If Tiki kills people next year, and Eli can throw a bunch of TD passes to his enormous targets in the red zone, noone will notice how mediocre he was for another year. Look at the QBs playing with backs who had similar years to Tiki. Did any of them put up such a paltry completion pct? No. Tiki takes enormous pressure off Eli - what's going to happen if that's not there this year? Will he still get better by default?

i read an article- it was in a fantasy football mag, but its still relavant- about eli and the passing Ds he faced last year. he played well vs really bad ones, which was a majority of the giants games, and badly against the few tough ones he faced. this year, as it stands now, the giants play about 10 of the top 15 pass D's and they are predicting him to struggle this year. that would make me happy...

 

[Hostile]

I was joking with my WR comment above, hence the 'lol' right after it.

Nowhere have I written off the Eagles, simply pointing out where I think they'll struggle.

Got it. I think they're still a team to be feared, hence why I responded to the thread topic the way I did.

 

[superpunk]

i read an article- it was in a fantasy football mag, but its still relavant- about eli and the passing Ds he faced last year. he played well vs really bad ones, which was a majority of the giants games, and badly against the few tough ones he faced. this year, as it stands now, the giants play about 10 of the top 15 pass D's and they are predicting him to struggle this year. that would make me happy...

Big games against San Diego (28th), St. Louis (23rd), San Francisco (32nd), Denver (29th), Philly (21), Seattle (25th).......nice.

 

[Stash]

I don't "discount" the Eagles either. I think they'll be a good team, but unfortunately they play in a great division - arguably the NFL's toughest. In looking at the other teams, I have to think the Eagles will finish in the basement.

I would however challenge anyone to find a worse set of receivers in the entire league.

The team I think could give the Cowboys the most trouble would be the Commanders. Their starting lineup is as good as anyone's. As a Cowboys fan, my hope would be that their lack of depth becomes an issue.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I'm not suggesting that's going to happen, either. I just take issue with the notion that it's impossible for Eli to NOT dramatically improve next year. That is not a given. And if he has another year like last year, and Tiki is not completely dominant again, the Giants will struggle.

A big improvement is needed, considering Tiki is 32, IMO. If Tiki kills people next year, and Eli can throw a bunch of TD passes to his enormous targets in the red zone, noone will notice how mediocre he was for another year. Look at the QBs playing with backs who had similar years to Tiki. Did any of them put up such a paltry completion pct? No. Tiki takes enormous pressure off Eli - what's going to happen if that's not there this year? Will he still get better by default?

I agree with this. It is not a birth right, as some may suppose, that Eli will become his brother or better. He could take a step back but I would surprised if that happened.

I also agree that Tiki takes a great deal of pressure off Manning but to me, this is meaningless. If the Giants didn't have a guy like Barbar that could do this for Eli, Eli probably wouldn't be starting right now. He would have been brought along in a much more conservative pace. The fact that Barbar can take pressure off Eli makes all this possible.

If your going to look at Mannings season and ask, what other QB enjoyed the success of a RB like Tiki in the backfield and posted the same kind of numbers, I think you also have to ask the question, how many of them were in there first full year of starting? That would only be fair.

 

[illone]

Got it. I think they're still a team to be feared, hence why I responded to the thread topic the way I did.

It's one thing for us fans to fear someone. However, it's a lock that our respective coaching staffs take the Eagles seriously.

 

[superpunk]

I agree with this. It is not a birth right, as some may suppose, that Eli will become his brother or better. He could take a step back but I would surprised if that happened.

I also agree that Tiki takes a great deal of pressure off Manning but to me, this is meaningless. If the Giants didn't have a guy like Barbar that could do this for Eli, Eli probably wouldn't be starting right now. He would have been brought along in a much more conservative pace. The fact that Barbar can take pressure off Eli makes all this possible.

If your going to look at Mannings season and ask, what other QB enjoyed the success of a RB like Tiki in the backfield and posted the same kind of numbers, I think you also have to ask the question, how many of them were in there first full year of starting? That would only be fair.

Personally, I've had enough of the first full year load. He had 7 games in 04. If that's not enough to get you acclimated, I don't know what is.

But that's just me.

#1 pick Carson Palmer showed steady improvement in his first year starting - so much so that if you really were paying attention late, you knew it would be smart to nab him last year in your fantasy draft, because he was torching some really good teams.

I haven't seen anything even remotely approaching that level of success with Eli - with a RB that puts Rudi Johnson to shame. So I don't see the need to put blind faith in him improving all that much next year. Maybe if he had closed the season showing up large - but he didn't. I saw something from Carson Palmer, and I haven't even come close to seeing that from Eli, yet.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Personally, I've had enough of the first full year load. He had 7 games in 04. If that's not enough to get you acclimated, I don't know what is.

But that's just me.

#1 pick Carson Palmer showed steady improvement in his first year starting - so much so that if you really were paying attention late, you knew it would be smart to nab him last year in your fantasy draft, because he was torching some really good teams.

I haven't seen anything even remotely approaching that level of success with Eli - with a RB that puts Rudi Johnson to shame. So I don't see the need to put blind faith in him improving all that much next year. Maybe if he had closed the season showing up large - but he didn't. I saw something from Carson Palmer, and I haven't even come close to seeing that from Eli, yet.

Never the less, even our own head coach believes that QBs need 3 to 5 years seasoning before they are ready. As I said earlier, 23 games are not a lot of games IMO. Eli Manning may not be Carson Palmer but you can count how many Carson Palmer's have come along on one hand, IMO. That is not a fair comparison. If we are going to make a comparison of this type, I think you have to compare him to more then just Palmer. You have to compare him to Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers and Jason Campbell and Philip Rivers and Big Ben and Leftwich, Boller, Grossman and Palmer.

 

[superpunk]

Never the less, even our own head coach believes that QBs need 3 to 5 years seasoning before they are ready. As I said earlier, 23 games are not a lot of games IMO. Eli Manning may not be Carson Palmer but you can count how many Carson Palmer's have come along on one hand, IMO. That is not a fair comparison. If we are going to make a comparison of this type, I think you have to compare him to more then just Palmer. You have to compare him to Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers and Jason Campbell and Philip Rivers and Big Ben and Leftwich, Boller, Grossman and Palmer.

It's impossible to compare him to almost any of the players you listed, as they've not played. Manning does have more talent on his squad than Palmer or Leftwich did - both 1st rounders - though. He puts up worse completion numbers than Leftwich, with far more talent. He's a #1 pick - he should be killing Leftwich's numbers (taking into account how many passes each throws), and he has more talent, and he's just not. Not impressed by Eli, or Leftwich, all that much.

 

[Hostile]

It's one thing for us fans to fear someone. However, it's a lock that our respective coaching staffs take the Eagles seriously.

Very true.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

It's impossible to compare him to almost any of the players you listed, as they've not played. Manning does have more talent on his squad than Palmer or Leftwich did - both 1st rounders - though. He puts up worse completion numbers than Leftwich, with far more talent. He's a #1 pick - he should be killing Leftwich's numbers (taking into account how many passes each throws), and he has more talent, and he's just not. Not impressed by Eli, or Leftwich, all that much.

Well, the fact that he is starting when some of the others are not would seem to be an indication to me that he is doing something right. You have to compare him to his contemporaries. It is the only fair way to gage him as a young QB. I would also say that I do not agree that he has had more talent to play with then Palmer. Palmer has a championship calibur defense, he's played with an excellent rushing game since he's been in the league, he has Chad Johnson, one of the top two or three WRs in the league (IMO) and he has Houshmandezadeh who caught 151 balls in the last two season for a total of 1934 yards and 11 TDs. That is a quality 2nd receiver IMO. You bring in Chris Henry as your third guy and I don't know that I'd say Eli has a better cast of WRs. They were the third best passing offense in the NFL last year. I think that hands down, Cincy's OL is better. I don't agree that Eli has better talent to work with then Palmer does. As for Lefty, well, he hasn't exactly been hurting with Jimmy Smith, Wilford, Reggie Williams and Matt Jones. Kyle Brady at TE, Fred Taylor and Greg Jones in the backfield. That's a lot of talent offensively. Having said that, I don't know that you can say Leftwich has outdone Eli. Solid numbers to be sure, better completion percentage but I don't know about better. Personally, I would probably say that Leftwich has been better but I would also say that the Jags, top to bottom were better when Lefty started then when Eli joined the Giants. That is a subjective but the point can easily be argued.

 

[jackrussell]

Wow. Five pages and not even a mention of the team in this division that scares me most.

And that would be the Dallas Cowboys.

It scares me to think of Bledsoe going down at anytime.
It scares me to think this OL could end up being cheese cloth.
It scares me to think of TO imploding....again.
It scares me to think the switch to the 3-4 is the mistake I suspect it is.
It scares me this draft devotion to defense has left our offense without an infusion of long term, youthful play makers.

Commanders, Eagles, and Giants are the very least of my concerns.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

Wow. Five pages and not even a mention of the team in this division that scares me most.

And that would be the Dallas Cowboys.

It scares me to think of Bledsoe going down at anytime.
It scares me to think this OL could end up being cheese cloth.
It scares me to think of TO imploding....again.
It scares me to think the switch to the 3-4 is the mistake I suspect it is.
It scares me this draft devotion to defense has left our offense without an infusion of long term, youthful play makers.

Commanders, Eagles, and Giants are the very least of my concerns.

Ok.... you put a twist on this thread.....
I think it wasnt mentioned in 5 pages because it was pretty obvious that it was which of the three teams in the division.... but ok....

 

[kartr]

Philadelphia has the best QB, best offensive coach, and revamped O and D lines-- so they scare me the most. They know how to win and have something to prove. Washington and New York were very lucky last year to have played Philadelphia late-- post TO fiasco and massive injuries. They even played Philly without Donovan McNabb. Philadelphia's OL has a chance to become dominant and I only thank Andy Reid's pass-happy nature for delaying this inevitable turn. They draft these guys in the 1st round every year and then take them out of the game by turning them into passive pass blockers! IMO, you want these guys mauling people like they did to us in Philadelphia for three and a half quarters. If Reid turns that OL loose, Philadelphia might become the NFC's best once more.

Washington has great potential if they can play as well as they did down the stretch last year. But they can't. I think their secondary is good but vulnerable, their linebacking solid but suspect, and their DL very, very overrated. Andre Carter is a bust. What Washington fans don't realize is their defense is a bend-don't-break unit that scores high statistically because their offense is so conservative. And that's the crux, their offense did not seriously improve the way it needed to. The key in Brunell and he has to play as well as he did last year which was his best season. They need receivers who can improve Brunell's accuracy and instead they got guys who need accurate passers to throw them the ball. Also, no one is going to let Santana Moss sneak up on them anymore. You'll see more of what Seattle did to them in the playoffs-- choking off their best WR and forcing the other guys to beat them. Despite multiple turnovers in their favor, Washington couldn't beat Seattle.

New York had the easiest schedule of any of the East teams last year, gaining an extra home game vs New Orleans and they also seemed to always be facing teams at the right times. This team scares me the least and will finish in last place.

You make some good points, but calling Andre Carter a bust for the Skins this early is getting carried away, and how can you ignore the Al Saunders impact on the team, plus Moss will be in his second year with Brunell and he was virtually only good receiver they had. Brandon LLoyd and Randle El may not be world beaters, but they don't have to be, cause Brunell is still a better qb than Big Ben and Rattay. Now Al Saunders has a much more talented group of receivers than he had with the Chiefs and his offense worked there. All of the teams in our division had excellent off seasons and to dismiss any of them smacks of naivity and homerism at its worst. Don't forget, teams in which TO has played for didn't automatically go to the playoffs every year and we even beat the 9'ers in 2001 when they had TO and a pro bowl qb.

 

[kartr]

The Giants ... their team strengths (outside pass rush) match up against our team weaknesses (offensive tackle). Tiki Barber and Jeremy Shockey cause matchup problems with our LB's and S's.

The only saving grace is that Eli is so horrendous and the team makeup seems to be combustable.

Eli is very young, but will get better, and he still threw for over 3700 yards, so don't count him out.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

Eli is very young, but will get better, and he still threw for over 3700 yards, so don't count him out.

Marino threw for 17 Billion yards... doesnt mean a thing...

 

[Doomsday101]

Marino threw for 17 Billion yards... doesnt mean a thing...

No just one of the best QB's to play the game.

 

[jackrussell]

Ok.... you put a twist on this thread.....
I think it wasnt mentioned in 5 pages because it was pretty obvious that it was which of the three teams in the division.... but ok....

just roll with it my brother and open your arms to the diversity that shall set you free from the atypical forum blather that can mire you in the belief that this is all too serious.

or shall i say.....







chill.

 

[kartr]

He actually got worse last year as the season went along, so its not like he's on an upward arc. He puts up some good total numbers (as long as the numbers don't reflect efficiency in any way, shape or form) because he has weapons with some of the best ball skills in the NFL in Shockey and Burress, and Tiki is one of the top 5 RB's in the NFL when it comes to taking a dump off pass in the flat for a huge gain ... but Eli's accuracy is atrocious. Just ridiculously bad. And I believe that accuracy is every bit as much of a God given skill as arm strength. You might be able to improve it somewhat with some mechanic tweaks, but at the end of the day you either have it or you don't. He had problems at Ole Miss letting passes sail when people got in his face.

That's awfully harsh on a qb who hasn't started his 3rd year yet,especially when contrasted with the deification of Bledsoe who was in his 13 year last year. Down the stretch had some very poor qb ratings against the Giants,Skins among others. It seems that he did well against some teams who were bottom feeders, but against playoff calibre teams, he wilted like a candle with his 42,50 qb ratings.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

No just one of the best QB's to play the game.

Sorry... as the song goes

"it don't mean a thing if you ain't got that ring"

Marino is just another one of these guys that WANTED to throw it(like Favre)... never wanted to stick with running game(sometimes it takes a good part of the game to develop) thats why plenty of coaches and QB' allow it to develop. He didnt.