Inception

[Cythim]

So the useless kick was in the snow or jumping off the building? That is where it gets jumbled, not the van.

 

[theogt]

I think I've already posted this in this thread, but I don't think you're seeking the kicks quite like they're actually working.

The kick doesn't send you up a level. The kick brings you back from a lower level. The van kick woke up the ones dreaming in the Hotel level.

They explained that in the very beginning of the film. When Leo was dreaming and not coming out, and the mob is coming down the street, they had to wake him up from the dream, and they used throwing Leo's chair into the bathtub. The water flooding the building where Saito's safe was is just the mind's projection of the water from the actual kick.

There was no kick in "Reality" to wake them up from the Van level. The sedative just wore off naturally, waking them up.

I get this, but what was the point of the kick in the snow level? To wake them up from limbo? Perhaps so. Perhaps it works such that if you die and go into limbo you can't be woken up, but if you put yourself into limbo, you can be woken up.

 

[theogt]

So the useless kick was in the snow or jumping off the building? That is where it gets jumbled, not the van.

Jumping off the building wasn't a kick. That was killing herself to get out of limbo.

The snow kick seems useless to me.

 

[kmp77]

if you die in limbo you just go into limbo again? that doesnt make a whole lot of sense

I think being in limbo means you're "stuck". So normally dying would wake you up from a normal dream, but since you're in limbo and lost, you just loop back to limbo unless you pull yourself out of it consciously (not lost anymore). I think the point of their limbo was it was hell, so you can't really escape in the normal means.

 

[TheCount]

I get this, but what was the point of the kick in the snow level? To wake them up from limbo? Perhaps so. Perhaps it works such that if you die and go into limbo you can't be woken up, but if you put yourself into limbo, you can be woken up.

I don't think anything was ever stated about not being able to be woken up from Limbo. The problem with Limbo is not being able to wake yourself up because you believe it's reality. So a kick should still be able to bring you out of it.

The only reason anyone ever gets stuck in limbo, from my understanding, is that they lose track of reality or/and they are under sedation.

Killing yourself in Limbo would bring you out of it under normal circumstances, just people there don't do it because they believe it's real and they would be committing suicide.

 

[theogt]

I don't think anything was ever stated about not being able to be woken up from Limbo. The problem with Limbo is not being able to wake yourself up because you believe it's reality. So a kick should still be able to bring you out of it.

The only reason anyone ever gets stuck in limbo, from my understanding, is that they lose track of reality or/and they are under sedation.

Killing yourself in Limbo would bring you out of it under normal circumstances, just people there don't do it because they believe it's real and they would be committing suicide.

This is my big issue with the film -- I don't get why Cobb and Mal didn't just commit suicide early on while first in limbo. Perhaps they didn't realize that it would work, but why would they decide to try it later on?

 

[Hoofbite]

I get this, but what was the point of the kick in the snow level? To wake them up from limbo? Perhaps so. Perhaps it works such that if you die and go into limbo you can't be woken up, but if you put yourself into limbo, you can be woken up.

I didn't think that Leo and Page were actually in Limbo.

I thought they were in Leo's recreated version of his previous Limbo.

Isn't Leo stabbed? He actually dies and goes to Limbo but Page shoots Fisher and pushes him before jumping, waking Fisher and herself back to the snow level.

Wouldn't that mean that the snow level falling would send them back to the hotel, and the exploding elevator would send them back to the van.

 

[Hoofbite]

This is my big issue with the film -- I don't get why Cobb and Mal didn't just commit suicide early on while first in limbo. Perhaps they didn't realize that it would work, but why would they decide to try it later on?

I thought they just liked the idea of creating whatever they wanted.

Didn't she also lock her top in the safe. I couldn't tell if this was a metaphor for her forgetting it wasn't real or her actively forgetting via inception.

 

[Concord]

Now that was a great movie.

 

[TheCount]

This is my big issue with the film -- I don't get why Cobb and Mal didn't just commit suicide early on while first in limbo. Perhaps they didn't realize that it would work, but why would they decide to try it later on?

Yeah, I think early on they stayed in Limbo by choice. They enjoyed exploring each other's subconscious that way. What I don't remember is why Cobb was able to tell that it wasn't real while Mal believed it was.

 

[theogt]

I thought they just liked the idea of creating whatever they wanted.

Didn't she also lock her top in the safe. I couldn't tell if this was a metaphor for her forgetting it wasn't real or her actively forgetting via inception.

So, they stayed in limbo by choice, then Mal decides to force herself to forget it's not reality (via locking the top in the safe) because she enjoys it so much? I thought the voice over was making the point that they missed their children or some such.

Yeah, I think early on they stayed in Limbo by choice. They enjoyed exploring each other's subconscious that way. What I don't remember is why Cobb was able to tell that it wasn't real while Mal believed it was.

See above.

 

[Kevinicus]

They were definitely in Limbo, Yusef even says that what would be in Limbo would be whatever the subconcious came up with OR whatever was left by anyone who was sharing the dream who had already been there (Cobb).

And the fall from the building was a kick. Ariadne even says before they go into Limbo that they will just give Fischer a kick from down there. The zappers they use on Fischer are to let them know when they need to kick out (as seen by the lightning in Limbo).

Ariadne is kicked back out of Limbo, by her fall and wakes in the snow level prior before the fall in the snow level, then the fall from the snow level sends her up.

They explain it one way earlier, but it is not done that way at the end.

Also, perhaps the reason Cobb wakes in the Ocean again is because he dies on level 1 and re-enters Limbo, or just because the van hits the water.

 

[theogt]

They were definitely in Limbo, Yusef even says that what would be in Limbo would be whatever the subconcious came up with OR whatever was left by anyone who was sharing the dream who had already been there (Cobb).

And the fall from the building was a kick. Ariadne even says before they go into Limbo that they will just give Fischer a kick from down there. The zappers they use on Fischer are to let them know when they need to kick out (as seen by the lightning in Limbo).

Ariadne is kicked back out of Limbo, by her fall and wakes in the snow level prior before the fall in the snow level, then the fall from the snow level sends her up.

They explain it one way earlier, but it is not done that way at the end.

If she wakes up in the snow level, it's not because the fall in limbo was a kick. It's because she killed herself in limbo and woke up from it in the prior level. She then didn't need to be kicked in the snow level. She would wake from that level by being kicked in the higher level (i.e., the elevator fall).

Also, perhaps the reason Cobb wakes in the Ocean again is because he dies on level 1 and re-enters Limbo, or just because the van hits the water.

Oh, that's a very good observation and explains another big hole in the plot -- i.e., what happened to Cobb when he didn't wake up from the Van kick. Presumably, sometime after Ariadne kills herself, he walks around in limbo looking for Saito and eventually gives up and kills himself -- but by that time it's too late for him to get kicked back up in sync with everyone else. So he's only kicked back up to one of the intermediate levels and then re-enters limbo when being killed in the van level.

I doubt very seriously there are any actual holes in the plot. I don't see Nolan and Co. spending that sort of money while either (a) realizing there were holes and not doing anything about it or (b) not even realizing there were plot holes.

 

[TheCount]

what happened to Cobb when he didn't wake up from the Van kick. Presumably, sometime after Ariadne kills herself, he walks around in limbo looking for Saito and eventually gives up and kills himself -- but by that time it's too late for him to get kicked back up in sync with everyone else. So he's only kicked back up to one of the intermediate levels and then re-enters limbo when being killed in the van level.

Yeah, them not really explaining what happens if you miss a kick in level 3 when you're in level 4 of a dream and the dreamer from 3 wakes up bugged me right after the movie but I didn't really dwell on it.

The idea that the reason he washes up on the shore is from dying in the van level is interesting. Hadn't thought about that, but what do you mean he gives up and kills himself after wandering looking for Saito?

 

[Temo]

http://img836.*************/img836/4571/hurr2.pnghttp://img836.*************/img836/4571/hurr2.png

Whoever did that just copied (badly) this old graphic, from xkcd:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/movie_narrative_charts_large.png

 

[Kevinicus]

The only thing I can think of that would make it so the kicks weren't improperly handled would be if due to the sedation level, they required a kick from both the top level and lower level in order to go back up. Otherwise, no matter which way you slice it, there's a problem there.

 

[theogt]

The only thing I can think of that would make it so the kicks weren't improperly handled would be if due to the sedation level, they required a kick from both the top level and lower level in order to go back up. Otherwise, no matter which way you slice it, there's a problem there.

I don't see the issue. The kicks work out.

The van kick woke Arthur, Ariadne, Eames, and Fischer up from the hotel, the hotel kick woke Ariadne, Eames and Fischer up from the snow level. The only people that didn't kick back up this way were Cobb and Saito and they presumably were dead in every level but limbo, in which they eventually shot themselves, sending them back up into reality. Once Yusuf, Ariadne, Eames and Fischer were safe in the van level, they merely had to wait a short period until the sedation wore off.

Ariadne jumping off the building was not a kick.

 

[CowboysNumeroUno]

I don't see the issue. The kicks work out.

The van kick woke Arthur, Ariadne, Eames, and Fischer up from the hotel, the hotel kick woke Ariadne, Eames and Fischer up from the snow level. The only people that didn't kick back up this way were Cobb and Saito and they presumably were dead in every level but limbo, in which they eventually shot themselves, sending them back up into reality. Once Yusuf, Ariadne, Eames and Fischer were safe in the van level, they merely had to wait a short period until the sedation wore off.

Ariadne jumping off the building was not a kick.

This logic works. But what was the point of blowing the building in the snow level?

 

[peplaw06]

I get this, but what was the point of the kick in the snow level? To wake them up from limbo? Perhaps so. Perhaps it works such that if you die and go into limbo you can't be woken up, but if you put yourself into limbo, you can be woken up.

This logic works. But what was the point of blowing the building in the snow level?

I was under the impression that in order to "Kick" someone back from Limbo, there had to be a kick in the higher level plus some overt action in Limbo to assist in the kick.

They had to jolt Fischer back awake from Limbo in the snow level. When Ariadne saw the lightning strikes, she threw him from the building to coincide with the "kick." Then when they blew the building in the snow level, Ariadne in Limbo had to jump from the building herself. Fischer and Ariadne went through the kick progressions from Limbo all the way to the van level.

I suppose that Leo and Saito's shooting themselves in Limbo was a means to avoid having to kick them all the way back through the remaining levels, especially considering the dreamers of some of those levels were already woken up.

I'm not real sure about this, but that's how I had it worked out in my head.

 

[theogt]

This logic works. But what was the point of blowing the building in the snow level?

I was under the impression that in order to "Kick" someone back from Limbo, there had to be a kick in the higher level plus some overt action in Limbo to assist in the kick.

They had to jolt Fischer back awake from Limbo in the snow level. When Ariadne saw the lightning strikes, she threw him from the building to coincide with the "kick." Then when they blew the building in the snow level, Ariadne in Limbo had to jump from the building herself. Fischer and Ariadne went through the kick progressions from Limbo all the way to the van level.

I suppose that Leo and Saito's shooting themselves in Limbo was a means to avoid having to kick them all the way back through the remaining levels, especially considering the dreamers of some of those levels were already woken up.

I'm not real sure about this, but that's how I had it worked out in my head.

Cobb and Mal didn't require a higher level kick when they first entered limbo. Or maybe they did -- and the train was just their manifestation of some alarm/kick going off in a higher level. So they were killing themselves simultaneously with the kick.

That would explain why you couldn't just get out of limbo immediately by killing yourself. But with Cobb and Saito, in the end, they were dead in every level above limbo, so killing themselves just kicked them all the way back up to reality.