Interesting stat

[Stash]

Interesting. Could be, as you suggest, that Linehan reverts to old habits under pressure (like the rest of us). Could be, too, that there isn't a coordinator in the league (maybe you and I should be submitting applications league-wide) that wouldn't abandon the run the way Linehan did when the team was getting stomped in the Denver game (or in GB, if what happened there can be called "abandoning the run").

Again, I will ask you to look at that game again. Saying the team was "getting stomped" is a misnomer. It was abandoned early and often. Well before Denver had any significant lead.

On that point, I don't think there are too many coordinators, if any, that view 3rd and 3 (or more) as a running down. So I don't fault Linehan for not "consistently" treating it as such.

How about "inconsistently" then? Show me the last 3rd and 2 yard running play that wasn't running out the clock? It's a pass-only down for this team and people have somehow accepted it.

The Jimmy Johnson / Norv Turner Cowboys trusted in their line. This guy doesn't.

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

Again, I will ask you to look at that game again. Saying the team was "getting stomped" is a misnomer. It was abandoned early and often. Well before Denver had any significant lead.

Yeah, I don't want to get into defending the play-calling in Denver. As I say, we agree that it left a lot to be desired. Linehan was one of many culprits.

How about "inconsistently" then? Show me the last 3rd and 2 yard running play that wasn't running out the clock? It's a pass-only down for this team and people have somehow accepted it.

The Jimmy Johnson / Norv Turner Cowboys trusted in their line. This guy doesn't.

3rd and 2 is a rushing down, in my view. If Linehan isn't calling running plays consistently on 3rd and 2 (I actually don't know -- don't even know where to find the data), then I agree we have a problem.

3rd and 3 or more (which is what I thought we were talking about since you spoke of "3rd down and more than 2 yards") is an entirely different kettle of fish.

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

The other thing I'd point out, Stash, is that I don't think we can look at the brute number of pass attempts and draw definitive conclusions on commitment to the run. The RPO has become a staple of this offense. Each RPO, in essence, begins as a run play with the option for Dak to pull the ball out of Zeke's belly and pass instead if the D overreacts to the play action. Dak has (accurately) been reading a lot of opposing defenses crashing the run and so has properly changed a lot of plays that were initially runs into passes. That's not abandoning the run. That's using the threat of run to create and exploit a hole in the D.

 

[Stash]

Yeah, I don't want to get into defending the play-calling in Denver. As I say, we agree that it left a lot to be desired. Linehan was one of many culprits.

Here's some quick trivia. Outside of Von Miller, how many of those Denver players do you know that were able to scare Linehan out of running the ball?

3rd and 2 is a rushing down, in my view. If Linehan isn't calling running plays consistently on 3rd and 2 (I actually don't know -- don't even know where to find the data), then I agree we have a problem.

It's surprisingly tough to find. And I have tried. Because I've noticed it so very often.

3rd and 3 or more (which is what I thought we were talking about since you spoke of "3rd down and more than 2 yards") is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Is it? Not so much for me, and certainly not for those Super Bowl teams. But this team won't run on 2nd and 6, much less 3rd and 3. Forget about it.

 

[Stash]

The other thing I'd point out, Stash, is that I don't think we can look at the brute number of pass attempts and draw definitive conclusions on commitment to the run. The RPO has become a staple of this offense. Each RPO, in essence, begins as a run play with the option for Dak to pull the ball out of Zeke's belly and pass instead if the D overreacts to the play action. Dak has (accurately) been reading a lot of opposing defenses crashing the run and so has properly changed a lot of plays that were initially runs into passes. That's not abandoning the run. That's using the threat of run to create and exploit a hole in the D.

That's not an excuse either. If Linehan wants to commit to the run, take the RPO away. Easy.

That very thing was mentioned by him after the Giants game. Where they again failed to run the ball on the 2 or 3 yard line, remember? Good times.

He talked about it, but talk is cheap.

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

That's not an excuse either. If Linehan wants to commit to the run, take the RPO away. Easy.

That very thing was mentioned by him after the Giants game. Where they again failed to run the ball on the 2 or 3 yard line, remember? Good times.

He talked about it, but talk is cheap.

Yeah I don't want the team to take the option off. To me that would blunt one of the primary advantages of establishing the run: setting up the pass.

I had no issue with what happened on 3rd and goal in the Giants game. Dak was simply off on his throws (surely we all saw that?) but made the right reads. Nobody conplained when an RPO resulted in an easy TD to Witten later in the game.

 

[Stash]

Yeah I don't want the team to take the option off. To me that would blunt one of the primary advantages of establishing the run: setting up the pass.

It also allows opponents to dictate to you whether you run or throw. We're talented enough to dictate, not be dictated to.

Mediocre offense "take what's given". Good ones take what they want.

I had no issue with what happened on 3rd and goal in the Giants game. Dak was simply off on his throws (surely we all saw that?) but made the right reads.

You were in the minority then. Plenty more people did. So much that it was a point of contention and brought up to him, hence the comments.

Nobody conplained when an RPO resulted in an easy TD to Witten later in the game.

Was it? I hadn't seen that was conclusively the case?

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

It also allows opponents to dictate to you whether you run or throw. We're talented enough to dictate, not be dictated to.

Mediocre offense "take what's given". Good ones take what they want.

Seems to misrepresent things a bit. We force an overreaction from the D and then exploit their overreaction, but we're being "dictated to"? I don't think so. We're not talking about making a pre-snap read and audibling into a pass because Dak sees a stacked box. That's being dictated to. We're talking about dictating to the D that they WILL sell out on the run (or get trampled) so that we can torch them through the air.

You were in the minority then. Plenty more people did. So much that it was a point of contention and brought up to him, hence the comments.

I was in the minority, yes. But not until after Linehan's explanation that the plays were RPOs, which justified what happened for me but apparently not for others.

Was it? I hadn't seen that was conclusively the case?

Check out Collinsworth's breakdown of the replay. He demonstrates clearly and in detail how Dak put the ball in Zeke's belly while reading Landon Collins. When Collins crashed the run, he pulled the ball out, knowing that Collins' over-commitment left Witten one on one with inside leverage on the CB. Easy TD. Textbook RPO.

 

[Stash]

Seems to misrepresent things a bit. We force an overreaction from the D and then exploit their overreaction, but we're being "dictated to"? I don't think so. We're not talking about making a pre-snap read and audibling into a pass because Dak sees a stacked box. That's being dictated to. We're talking about dictating to the D that they WILL sell out on the run (or get trampled) so that we can torch them through the air.

And are you seeing that? Who's getting "torched through the air" by this team? No, you don't want Dallas to run? Put numbers in the box and they'll stop right quick. That's proven fact. Ask New York. Ask Denver. Dallas will sheepishly "take what they're given". They'll even tell you that.

I was in the minority, yes. But not until after Linehan's explanation that the plays were RPOs, which justified what happened for me but apparently not for others.

Hearing how it happened doesn't erase why it happened. If it's a problem with the process, fix the process. It's not hard.

Check out Collinsworth's breakdown of the replay. He demonstrates clearly and in detail how Dak put the ball in Zeke's belly while reading Landon Collins. When Collins crashed the run, he pulled the ball out, knowing that Collins' over-commitment left Witten one on one with inside leverage on the CB. Easy TD. Textbook RPO.

That's different from what we're talking about here which is changing the play calls from run to pass. Sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying there.

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

And are you seeing that? Who's getting "torched through the air" by this team? No, you don't want Dallas to run? Put numbers in the box and they'll stop right quick. That's proven fact. Ask New York. Ask Denver. Dallas will sheepishly "take what they're given". They'll even tell you that.

If Dak doesn't miss on a couple of easy passes to Dez, the Giants get torched through the air on 3rd and goal from the 2. Later they got torched through the air on the Witten TD.

Dallas will "take what they're given" in an RPO because that's the design of the play. Stay home and honor your coverage responsibilities when you see the play action and we'll pound Zeke up the gut. Sell out to stop the run on the play action and we'll run a receiver into the area you vacated and play easy pitch and catch.

Either way, since it is the D that is reacting (one way or another) to the play action, it misrepresents things to suggest the O is being dictated to. The O takes what is given only because it can force the D to give up something juicy, whatever it chooses to do in response to the play action.

Hearing how it happened doesn't erase why it happened. If it's a problem with the process, fix the process. It's not hard.

We disagree on whether there is a problem with the process. Hearing how it happened resolved things for me because, far from abandoning the run in an obvious running situation, Linehan's explanation made clear that we were actually using the run to create safe, high percentage scoring plays. Dak just didn't execute on the throws. In all other respects, the RPOs worked exactly as they were intended and, if not for some errant passes, would have resulted in TDs.

That's different from what we're talking about here which is changing the play calls from run to pass. Sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying there.

No. I think a lot of people misinterpreted Linehan. He never said Dak was changing play calls from run to pass (which calls to mind audibling into a pass in response to a stacked box). He was simply describing (without using the term) RPOs, which essentially start out as a run with the option to abort the hand-off at the last instant and pass instead if the D overreacts to the threat of the hand-off. Exactly what happened on the TD pass to Witten (and the earlier failed pass attempts to Dez).

 

[Idgit]

Here's the ugly, disgusting truth for anyone with the stomach strong enough to look at it:

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2017091710/2017/REG2/cowboys@broncos#menu=gameinfo|contentId:0ap3000000847079&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay

I don't even need to criticize running just one time on the opening drive.

But down just 7-0, the run game was already out the window.

1. DAL 0 DEN 7 Plays: 8 Possession: 3:45
2. Dallas Cowboys at 09:25
3. 8-B.McManus kicks 65 yards from DEN 35 to end zone, Touchback.
4. 1-10-DAL 25(9:25) 4-D.Prescott pass short left to 88-D.Bryant to DAL 37 for 12 yards (25-C.Harris, 31-J.Simmons).
5. 1-10-DAL 37(8:46) (Shotgun) 4-D.Prescott pass short left to 11-C.Beasley ran ob at DAL 43 for 6 yards.
6. 2-4-DAL 43(8:14) 21-E.Elliott up the middle to DAL 46 for 3 yards (99-A.Gotsis, 48-S.Barrett).
7. 3-1-DAL 46(7:30) 73-J.Looney reported in as eligible. PENALTY on DAL-79-C.Green, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at DAL 46 - No Play.
8. Timeout #1 by DAL at 07:04.
9. 3-6-DAL 41(7:04) (Shotgun) 4-D.Prescott pass short left to 21-E.Elliott to DAL 40 for -1 yards (26-D.Stewart) [95-D.Wolfe].
10. 4-7-DAL 40(6:31) 6-C.Jones punts 54 yards to DEN 6, Center-91-L.Ladouceur, out of bounds.

1. Dallas Cowboys at 02:24
2. 1-10-DAL 39(2:24) (Shotgun) 21-E.Elliott up the middle to DAL 41 for 2 yards (99-A.Gotsis; 48-S.Barrett).
3. 2-8-DAL 41(1:50) 4-D.Prescott pass short left to 88-D.Bryant to DAL 45 for 4 yards (25-C.Harris).
4. 3-4-DAL 45(1:14) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 4-D.Prescott pass short left to 82-J.Witten to DEN 46 for 9 yards (26-D.Stewart).
5. 1-10-DEN 4638) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 4-D.Prescott pass incomplete deep left to 88-D.Bryant.
6. The game has been suspended. Game halted due to the weather at 2:56 PM
7. The game has resumed. Game re-started at 3:58 PM
8. 2-10-DEN 4633) (Shotgun) 4-D.Prescott pass incomplete short right to 83-T.Williams.
9. 3-10-DEN 4628) (Shotgun) 4-D.Prescott scrambles right end to DEN 39 for 7 yards (48-S.Barrett).
10. END QUARTER 1

It doesn't "Ignore" anything. The running game never works all the time. Neither does the passing game. But you know what play never works? The one you never use.



So your solution to competing against "a team that can essentially lock down your three best WR's with their 3 best CB's" is to go pass happy against them?

Abandon your running game and put your offensive line on their heels all day and take arguably your best offensive weapon out of the game?

A truly awful plan.

You have to pass them out of the run defenses if you can't run them out of them. Witten, Switzer, Butler. Or get Dak out on the perimeter. We've got options for doing exactly that, which is why the offense is so difficult to defend normally.

But when your QB is making unforced errors in the passing game, and your star LT is giving up untouched sacks, or your HoF TE is dropping TDs that hit him in the hands, and your phenom pass rusher is gifting, effectively, a 3rd TO on a questionable leverage call on STs...well, sometimes it doesn't matter what you do when it's not your day.

I'm still not in favor of doing what you already know has no chance of working twice as much, just to see if anything changes. But here, at least, you're pointing out downs and distances where it would be reasonable to run and where we did not. Bear in mind, though, we still don't know what plays were called from that, which were RPOs were the defense suggested and Dak took the pass.

 

[TheSkaven]

Last year Dallas ran the ball 43% even when behind.
After 3 games this season there at 28%.

Have to get back to our bread an butter.

They're not running the ball because it hasn't been working. And honestly, the team has been too predictable on offense. I would love to see the percentage of run vs pass plays on first down, when the score is within 7 points. Though we won on Monday, it seemed to be run on first down then throw from 2nd and 10.

 

[Parcells4Life]

Where did you find the percentages? Is that your own charting or is it available somewhere?

 

[VACowboy]

It way too early to compare a 3 game season to a 16 game season...especially since we were blown out one of those games and forced to pass.

I agree, especially when you consider the schedule. Last year our first three games were New York, Washington, and Chicago. Some people were ready to start Alfred Morris a year ago about this time.

 

[Stash]

You have to pass them out of the run defenses if you can't run them out of them. Witten, Switzer, Butler. Or get Dak out on the perimeter. We've got options for doing exactly that, which is why the offense is so difficult to defend normally.

Again, I challenge you to find where they ever gave the running game a fair chance? Go through that play by play and again and show me where they showed even the least amount of effort. It never happened. You can't "run them out" of anything if you never try.

But when your QB is making unforced errors in the passing game, and your star LT is giving up untouched sacks, or your HoF TE is dropping TDs that hit him in the hands, and your phenom pass rusher is gifting, effectively, a 3rd TO on a questionable leverage call on STs...well, sometimes it doesn't matter what you do when it's not your day.

It was certainly a bad day all around and I've never suggested otherwise. I'm saying bad playcalling contributed to it and didn't help at all.

I'm still not in favor of doing what you already know has no chance of working twice as much, just to see if anything changes. But here, at least, you're pointing out downs and distances where it would be reasonable to run and where we did not. Bear in mind, though, we still don't know what plays were called from that, which were RPOs were the defense suggested and Dak took the pass.

And again, if that's happening, take it away. Run the plays called. But the ambiguity opens up grey area to let somebody off the hook.

 

[Stash]

If Dak doesn't miss on a couple of easy passes to Dez, the Giants get torched through the air on 3rd and goal from the 2. Later they got torched through the air on the Witten TD.

Dallas will "take what they're given" in an RPO because that's the design of the play. Stay home and honor your coverage responsibilities when you see the play action and we'll pound Zeke up the gut. Sell out to stop the run on the play action and we'll run a receiver into the area you vacated and play easy pitch and catch.

Either way, since it is the D that is reacting (one way or another) to the play action, it misrepresents things to suggest the O is being dictated to. The O takes what is given only because it can force the D to give up something juicy, whatever it chooses to do in response to the play action.

How is it then that this offense is being shut down? They're obviously among if not the most talented in the league, and according to your claims, dictating easy plays left and right. Why the struggles?

We disagree on whether there is a problem with the process. Hearing how it happened resolved things for me because, far from abandoning the run in an obvious running situation, Linehan's explanation made clear that we were actually using the run to create safe, high percentage scoring plays. Dak just didn't execute on the throws. In all other respects, the RPOs worked exactly as they were intended and, if not for some errant passes, would have resulted in TDs.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda?

No. I think a lot of people misinterpreted Linehan. He never said Dak was changing play calls from run to pass (which calls to mind audibling into a pass in response to a stacked box). He was simply describing (without using the term) RPOs, which essentially start out as a run with the option to abort the hand-off at the last instant and pass instead if the D overreacts to the threat of the hand-off. Exactly what happened on the TD pass to Witten (and the earlier failed pass attempts to Dez).

I think that it is you who is misinterpreting things there.

 

[ConceptCoop]

We miss Leary in the run game. Green/Collins in the run game is a work in progress.

Exactly. We'd be running the ball a lot more if our offensive line could get the push they did last season.

 

[VACowboy]

We miss Leary in the run game. Green/Collins in the run game is a work in progress.

I agree with you, but there was a time early on when we were lamenting Leary getting pushed around. Anyone who didn’t expect some growing pains with two new starters on the OL wasn’t being objective.

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

How is it then that this offense is being shut down? They're obviously among if not the most talented in the league, and according to your claims, dictating easy plays left and right. Why the struggles?

All sorts of reasons. Dak was visibly "off" the first two games. Tyron and Fredbeard haven't played up to their usual standards. We've faced some Ds that are among the most talented in the league, which offsets some of our talent on O.

And at the end of the day, I don't think it's quite accurate to say the O is being shut down. Certainly that was true in Denver. Against the Giants, they moved the ball surprisingly well (almost 400 yards of offense) but had red-zone issue (mostly execution, rather than play-calling, as discussed). And against the Cards, they put up 28 points -- good production by any reasonable standard -- notwithstanding their first-half futility.

I think that it is you who is misinterpreting things there.

I'm quite certain it isn't me. In fact, I went back and checked and he actually did specifically call the passes to Dez out as RPOs.

"The first two [play-calls] were run/pass options, so that's a run call," Linehan said. "We took two shots to Dez Bryant. We consider those long foul balls. So, yeah, I sit there and it's easy afterwards, you say, 'Look, if we would have hit one of those two, we wouldn't be talking about this.'"

Somehow people (perhaps influenced by some pretty misleading headlines) interpreted him to mean that Dak was changing play calls.

 

[Stash]

All sorts of reasons. Dak was visibly "off" the first two games. Tyron and Fredbeard haven't played up to their usual standards. We've faced some Ds that are among the most talented in the league, which offsets some of our talent on O.

And at the end of the day, I don't think it's quite accurate to say the O is being shut down. Certainly that was true in Denver. Against the Giants, they moved the ball surprisingly well (almost 400 yards of offense) but had red-zone issue (mostly execution, rather than play-calling, as discussed). And against the Cards, they put up 28 points -- good production by any reasonable standard -- notwithstanding their first-half futility.




I'm quite certain it isn't me. In fact, I went back and checked and he actually did specifically call the passes to Dez out as RPOs.

"The first two [play-calls] were run/pass options, so that's a run call," Linehan said. "We took two shots to Dez Bryant. We consider those long foul balls. So, yeah, I sit there and it's easy afterwards, you say, 'Look, if we would have hit one of those two, we wouldn't be talking about this.'"

Somehow people (perhaps influenced by some pretty misleading headlines) interpreted him to mean that Dak was changing play calls.

Again, you're mistaking playcalling for option plays. Two calls are sent in. Dak chose the pass play. It's happened for years around here, with varying and questionable degrees of success.