Is Garrett the best evaluator of talent we have ever had?

[Redball Express]

so much hate on here for the guy that has produced 3 division titles and 2 playoff wins in last 5 years.

you guys crack me up with the jg is terrible, should be coaching at a lower level...blah blah blah...doesnt it get old?

you can't have team success consistently and havr the coach be terrible...and despite the narrative you try to spin, this team has seen more success in the last 5 years than any other 5 year period going back to the 90s.

jg is a big part of that....now I'm not saying he's a great coach but to call him anything as negative as some of you are is just emotional venting bc you are pissed off the cowboys h avent advanced to the nfc championship game in decades...

just admit it and stop using the jg is a terrible coach line bc he's not and your emotional degrading of a better than average coach to make your fandom feel better gets really old

Pretty well said.

I agree.

Winning is the only cure.

Garrett does need to win more at the higher levels to get the respect he deserves.

But he has managed to make us relevant again and that was a long climb.

And that despite working with a GM who doubles as a real estate mogul and luxury yacht owner.

 

[Reverend Conehead]

I think he has a good eye for talent, but I don't think anyone was ever better at that than Gil Brandt.

 

[gimmesix]

1. Every one of us have a guy in the back of our mind we prefer over Garrett.But I heard something today from Broadus on the Draft Show where he said.."
2. "Garrett was the best talent evaluator this team has ever had"
3. ."I had to stop at that comment and think about it.I had not considered that part of his job.I just considered Will Clay to be the main brain there.But if that is true..then you have to give him more credit than he has received for the job of building the team the last 3 years.
4. It has improved a lot and normally I do not think of Garrett in the War Room as being a player.
   
   But I guess I am wrong there. Broadus should know.He has been around a bit. Hmmm..

Comments ftom the peanut gallery?

I don't think we can really say either way because the Cowboys don't reveal how much of a role he plays in the draft process. We do know that his dad was a scout, but we don't know how much he learned from him over the years.

Really, the only evidence we have are the draft results:

His first draft was 2011: We got Tyron Smith, DeMarco Murray and Dwayne Harris in that draft, but missed on Bruce Carter (at least a partial miss because of the second-round value), David Arkin, Josh Thomas, Shaun Chapas and Bill Nagy. Since Garrett dumped an aging line and wanted to rebuild, you would have to say he influenced the Smith, Arkin and Nagy picks, but there's no evidence of whether he evaluated those players. (3 hits, 4 misses)

McClay became the director of football research (whatever that means) for the team in 2011 before being promoted to assistant director of player personnel in 2014.

In 2012, Morris Claiborne didn't prove worthy of the picks that we used on him, but Tyrone Crawford in the third was a good pick. Kyle Wilber in the fourth was OK and James Hanna was good value for the sixth. We missed on Matt Johnson, Danny Coale and Caleb McSurdy. (3 hits, 4 misses)

In 2013, only one pick turned out great for us: Travis Frederick, but Terrance Williams was a decent value in the third. We blew the Gavin Escobar pick in the second, and didn't get much for our third-round investment in J.J. Wilcox and B.W. Webb, Joseph Randle and DeVonte Holloman didn't turn out well. (2 hits, 5 misses)

In 2014, we did well with our first three picks, Zack Martin, DeMarcus Lawrence and Anthony Hitchens (in the fourth) and missed on the remaining six (Devin Street, Ben Gardner, Will Smith, Ahmad Dixon, Ken Bishop, Terrance Mitchell). (3 hits, 6 misses)

I believe 2014 was the first draft that McClay heavily influenced.

In 2015, Byron Jones and Geoff Swaim have proven at least worthy of what we spent on them. Randy Gregory hasn't proven to be worth a second-round pick yet while Damien Wilson was OK value in the fourth. Chaz Green, Ryan Russell, Mark Nzeocha and Lawrence Gibson were complete washouts. (3 hits, 5 misses ... I'm counting Gregory as a miss because his playing time hasn't been worth a second)

In 2016, we hit on Ezekiel Elliott, Jaylon Smith, Dak Prescott and Anthony Brown and at least partially hit on Maliek Collins and Kavon Frazier. The only clear misses were Charles Tapper, Darius Jackson and Rico Gathers. (6 hits, 3 misses or 5 hits, 4 misses)

In 2017, Taco Charlton is looking like a bust so far, while Chidobe Awuzie is a clear hit while Xavier Woods and Jourdan Lewis look like hits too and Noah Brown wasn't bad value for the seventh round. We missed on Ryan Switzer, Marquez White, Joey Ivie and Jordan Carrell. (4 hits, 5 misses right now)

For the 2018 class, it looks like we at least hit on LVE and Michael Gallup, while the jury's out on Connor Williams, Dorance Armstrong, Dalton Schultz, Mike White, Chris Covington and Cedrick Wilson. The only known miss we had was Bo Scarbrough.

Before Garrett took over, I would have probably only graded us with two clear draft hits in 2010 (Dez Bryant and Sean Lee), one in 2009 (John Phillips) and one in 2008 (Orlando Scandrick), but the further you get from drafts, the easier it is to evaluate them.

So, in conclusion, we did see an improvement in our draft results after Garrett took over as coach, and that was before McClay was given his first player personnel title. We don't know how much of a role McClay played in those drafts as director of football research, though.

 

[Redball Express]

This is a joke right? Trolling maybe. "Best talent evaluator...ever..." Think about how stupid that comment is. Broaddus is a total moron. Why do you think he is on the radio now and not working in the league? Think back to the glory days of the Cowboys. All the players they grabbed that they had no business grabbing. Playoffs every year. Schramm and Brandt are in the HOF!!! Why, because they were legendary talent evaluators and they WON!!! Think about the drafts under Jimmy Johnson. The talent up and down that roster. He took a dumpster fire and turned it into a SB Champion for the ages in a few seasons. THIS TEAM HAS WON 2 PLAYOFF GAMES UNDER JASON GARRETT IN 9 YEARS! THEY HAVE HAD 4 WINNING SEASONS! He must be some terrible coach to be the best talent guy but put that record together as a coach.

Please just stop...

I did not say Broadus was right.

I just thru it out to the Forum for discussion.

I think Garrett has had a lot to do with our recent success.

We can whittle Garrett down to a nub..

but this team plays for him.

If we take pride in the team..

you can't dismiss Garrett.

You need to watch the team meet after games when Garrett addresses them.

They are listening.

And to me, that is all I care about.

They play and compete.

 

[Redball Express]

I don't think we can really say either way because the Cowboys don't reveal how much of a role he plays in the draft process. We do know that his dad was a scout, but we don't know how much he learned from him over the years.

Really, the only evidence we have are the draft results:

His first draft was 2011: We got Tyron Smith, DeMarco Murray and Dwayne Harris in that draft, but missed on Bruce Carter (at least a partial miss because of the second-round value), David Arkin, Josh Thomas, Shaun Chapas and Bill Nagy. Since Garrett dumped an aging line and wanted to rebuild, you would have to say he influenced the Smith, Arkin and Nagy picks, but there's no evidence of whether he evaluated those players. (3 hits, 4 misses)

McClay became the director of football research (whatever that means) for the team in 2011 before being promoted to assistant director of player personnel in 2014.

In 2012, Morris Claiborne didn't prove worthy of the picks that we used on him, but Tyrone Crawford in the third was a good pick. Kyle Wilber in the fourth was OK and James Hanna was good value for the sixth. We missed on Matt Johnson, Danny Coale and Caleb McSurdy. (3 hits, 4 misses)

In 2013, only one pick turned out great for us: Travis Frederick, but Terrance Williams was a decent value in the third. We blew the Gavin Escobar pick in the second, and didn't get much for our third-round investment in J.J. Wilcox and B.W. Webb, Joseph Randle and DeVonte Holloman didn't turn out well. (2 hits, 5 misses)

In 2014, we did well with our first three picks, Zack Martin, DeMarcus Lawrence and Anthony Hitchens (in the fourth) and missed on the remaining six (Devin Street, Ben Gardner, Will Smith, Ahmad Dixon, Ken Bishop, Terrance Mitchell). (3 hits, 6 misses)

I believe 2014 was the first draft that McClay heavily influenced.

In 2015, Byron Jones and Geoff Swaim have proven at least worthy of what we spent on them. Randy Gregory hasn't proven to be worth a second-round pick yet while Damien Wilson was OK value in the fourth. Chaz Green, Ryan Russell, Mark Nzeocha and Lawrence Gibson were complete washouts. (3 hits, 5 misses ... I'm counting Gregory as a miss because his playing time hasn't been worth a second)

In 2016, we hit on Ezekiel Elliott, Jaylon Smith, Dak Prescott and Anthony Brown and at least partially hit on Maliek Collins and Kavon Frazier. The only clear misses were Charles Tapper, Darius Jackson and Rico Gathers. (6 hits, 3 misses or 5 hits, 4 misses)

In 2017, Taco Charlton is looking like a bust so far, while Chidobe Awuzie is a clear hit while Xavier Woods and Jourdan Lewis look like hits too and Noah Brown wasn't bad value for the seventh round. We missed on Ryan Switzer, Marquez White, Joey Ivie and Jordan Carrell. (4 hits, 5 misses right now)

For the 2018 class, it looks like we at least hit on LVE and Michael Gallup, while the jury's out on Connor Williams, Dorance Armstrong, Dalton Schultz, Mike White, Chris Covington and Cedrick Wilson. The only known miss we had was Bo Scarbrough.

Before Garrett took over, I would have probably only graded us with two clear draft hits in 2010 (Dez Bryant and Sean Lee), one in 2009 (John Phillips) and one in 2008 (Orlando Scandrick), but the further you get from drafts, the easier it is to evaluate them.

So, in conclusion, we did see an improvement in our draft results after Garrett took over as coach, and that was before McClay was given his first player personnel title. We don't know how much of a role McClay played in those drafts as director of football research, though.

Super analysis.

So much info.

Yes, so..Will Clay?

Who hired him?

Garrett, Jerrah, Stephen?

I do not know.

Anybody know his story and how he came here?

I remember Jeff Ireland was here and he was well regarded and he went to Miami to be with Jimmy Johnson.

He was a Parcells hire..I think.

But Clay?

 

[Jumbo075]

Super analysis.

So much info.

Yes, so..Will Clay?

Who hired him?

Garrett, Jerrah, Stephen?

I do not know.

Anybody know his story and how he came here?

I remember Jeff Ireland was here and he was well regarded and he went to Miami to be with Jimmy Johnson.

He was a Parcells hire..I think.

But Clay?

Paragraphs are your friends...

 

[Diehardblues]

This thread is as much about his flaws in player development/acquisition as his successes. You can't have a discussion about Garrett being a great talent evaluator and having "built" the system (or nudged the Jones along) that now helps select players without pointing out the flaws of the system, the fact that we still have had some flawed rosters, etc.

Of course. No doubt there’s still some flaws. This isn’t a championship caliber team. The ultimate measurement in any mgmt is: are we in a better place than when they took over?

And Garrett has really had to rebuild or retool this team twice. In 2014 I think we saw the culmination of his early years at the helm only to see that core of stars disrupted and now this the second phase.We often want to lump together his 8 1/2 years at the helm but it’s truly a tale of two stories IMO.

There’s plenty of criticism to be told but I think there’s also much accolades especially for a HC with no experience and in this dysfunctional situation.

 

[davidariust24]

Will McClay is the guy I'd credit. He knows what he is looking for

 

[kskboys]

I just can't get over that horrid Escobar pick. Reportedly, that was a Garrett pick, and it was beyond stupid.

 

[G2]

It's funny how you are all in on a draft pick and it really could go either way. Like Tapper for example. Man I was wrong, but I thought he would develop.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think it's really difficult to fairly evaluate Garrett. I mean, it's easy to just say that he is terrible because lets face it, we have suffered a lot of years now with his on the job training. To me, the truth is that Garrett is not terrible, on the whole. He is also not great. To me, Garrett is a middle of the pack kind of NFL Coach at this stage of his career. The problem is that he's been at this for awhile now and he really should be better then just middle of the road. There are things Garrett is very good at and one of them, IMO, happens to be his ability to manage infrastructure, do the day to day things required. I've said this many times, Garrett is not stupid, he's actually very intelligent. There are phases of the game that he is extremely good at IMO. Garrett falls down in the actual game time coaching IMO. In game adjustments are not his strong suit IMO. We see that over and over and it is what it is. Everybody gets hit hard in the NFL. The teams who can take the punch and make the adjustments are the teams that win out IMO. We are not great at that all the time. It's been said a few times on this board, Garrett may be a better GM then he is Coach. I think I tend to agree with that line of thought because he is good at aspects of the game that lend itself more to the GM role IMO.

JMO

 

[Sydla]

Of course. No doubt there’s still some flaws. This isn’t a championship caliber team. The ultimate measurement in any mgmt is: are we in a better place than when they took over?

And Garrett has really had to rebuild or retool this team twice. In 2014 I think we saw the culmination of his early years at the helm only to see that core of stars disrupted and now this the second phase.We often want to lump together his 8 1/2 years at the helm but it’s truly a tale of two stories IMO.

There’s plenty of criticism to be told but I think there’s also much accolades especially for a HC with no experience and in this dysfunctional situation.

And I would say no, we are not in a better place.

We are still a team that can't get beyond the divisional round of the playoffs like Phillips couldn't.

 

[Diehardblues]

And I would say no, we are not in a better place.

We are still a team that can't get beyond the divisional round of the playoffs like Phillips couldn't.

I understand but that’s not where we were when Garrett took over.

 

[Jumbo075]

I just can't get over that horrid Escobar pick. Reportedly, that was a Garrett pick, and it was beyond stupid.

Get over it. Everybody misses. Even Belichick, who is notorious for his poor evaluation of defensive backs in the draft, misses. That's why he's had to overpay in recent years for CB's Darelle Rivas, and Stephon Gilimore. Time to get over Escobar.

 

[Sydla]

I understand but that’s not where we were when Garrett took over.

That's exactly where we were when Garrett took over. That 1-7 season that got Phillips fired was not a reflection of the team Garrett took over that had an elite DE, a franchise QB, etc.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

And I would say no, we are not in a better place.

We are still a team that can't get beyond the divisional round of the playoffs like Phillips couldn't.

Gotta agree with this take. I mean, Garrett may have had to retool twice, I think only once really, but whatever. Point being, he may have had to do this but he was left with a stacked deck IMO and the team kinda pissed that away. He got Tony after he was developed and ready to start. He has had some pretty good receivers over the years and some decent Backs as well. We have had years with good OL play and a few defenses that were good enough to allow you to compete. I won't say that we have ever had a Defense here, while Garrett was HC, that was dominant because I don't really believe that but I also think that a big part of that is because we have been an Offense Heavy Team under Garrett, by design.

 

[Diehardblues]

That's exactly where we were when Garrett took over. That 1-7 season that got Phillips fired was not a reflection of the team Garrett took over that had an elite DE, a franchise QB, etc.

Regardless it was a dwindling roster that Wade took over because of the horrid drafts and FA moves after Parcells left which left the team with only a shell of itself needing a rebuild or at least retooling and more sound FA decisions and drafts moving forward which Garrett begun delivering in 2011 with the best draft since Parcells.

 

[ZekeTrain]

In no order:

Jimmy, Coach Landry, The Godfather, Parcells.

JG is not even top four let alone the best.

 

[DFWJC]

Still bad at his job. If he is so good evaluating talent move him to the FO. He is wasting the talent he “evaluated”.

I've always felt that Garrett was more suited to be a GM. I think he'd be great at that

 

[Sydla]

Gotta agree with this take. I mean, Garrett may have had to retool twice, I think only once really, but whatever. Point being, he may have had to do this but he was left with a stacked deck IMO and the team kinda pissed that away. He got Tony after he was developed and ready to start. He has had some pretty good receivers over the years and some decent Backs as well. We have had years with good OL play and a few defenses that were good enough to allow you to compete. I won't say that we have ever had a Defense here, while Garrett was HC, that was dominant because I don't really believe that but I also think that a big part of that is because we have been an Offense Heavy Team under Garrett, by design.

People, specifically those that defend Garrett and make him out to be so great and influential at player development, like to exaggerate how poor the team he took over was........... simply pointing at the 1-7 collapse as proof that the team was an untalented gaggle that Garrett rebuilt.