Is it the coaching or the roster?

Matts4313

Matts4313

Well-Known Member
Messages
346
Reaction score
267
Just wanted to point out a couple ideas. I keep reading here that Garrett is terrible and he along with all the other coaches (save Rod) need to be fired cause they suck at their job. There are a lot of comparisons to the quick turn around with other franchises (Chiefs, Niners, etc). Here is some food for thought:

Almost every coach on the roster under Garrett was extremely successful prior to joining the Cowboys. They were considered great secondary coaches, LB coaches, OC/OL coaches, etc. So why aren't they having success here? Did the game pass them by? Did they get figured out?

Or perhaps they working with a roster that is not nearly as talented as its fan base believes. Take a trip down memory lane with me - destination, 2010. The hype that season was unreal. People claimed we had the best roster in the NFL. The Cowboys had finally got the monkey off the back and won a playoff game. We were poised to win the division again and this time go all the way. After a 1-7 start the head coach was canned. Lets take a look at that "super talented" team:


2010 Roster -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Dallas_Cowboys_season#Week_1_roster

Quarterbacks
Running Backs

Wide Receivers

Tight Ends

Offensive Linemen
Defensive Linemen

Linebackers
Defensive Backs

Special Teams

Reserve Lists
Practice Squad

53 Active, 2 Inactive, 8 PS

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does that look at talented today as we thought it was when Garrett took over?
QB - Same
RB - Terrible
WR - 2 good players, rest suck
TE - Good
OL - Terrible, need to improve every spot (save Free, and even that is questionable)

DL - Good
OLB - Good
ILB - Terrible (Lee is only good player, and he is a back up)
CB - Terrible
S - Terrible

From a quick glance through - there are only like 11-12 guys on our 2010 team that are starters *on any team in the NFL*. There are only ~15-20ish guys that even make a game day roster. Think about that. The team that Garrett inherited was so bad that roughly 75% of the players aren't good enough to make it on any team in the NFL. Like, they suck so bad they cant help the Jags, Bucs, ANYONE.

I will save going through the same exercise with our current roster. But for everyone who keeps saying the coaches suck and we are too talented to be perennially 8-8 - Remember that you probably thought we were super talented in 2010 too... Maybe we should take a closer look into how talented we really are. Maybe its not the coaching, maybe its the roster.
 
tecolote

tecolote

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,038
Reaction score
1,196
Matts4313 said:
Just wanted to point out a couple ideas. I keep reading here that Garrett is terrible and he along with all the other coaches (save Rod) need to be fired cause they suck at their job. There are a lot of comparisons to the quick turn around with other franchises (Chiefs, Niners, etc). Here is some food for thought:

Almost every coach on the roster under Garrett was extremely successful prior to joining the Cowboys. They were considered great secondary coaches, LB coaches, OC/OL coaches, etc. So why aren't they having success here? Did the game pass them by? Did they get figured out?

Or perhaps they working with a roster that is not nearly as talented as its fan base believes. Take a trip down memory lane with me - destination, 2010. The hype that season was unreal. People claimed we had the best roster in the NFL. The Cowboys had finally got the monkey off the back and won a playoff game. We were poised to win the division again and this time go all the way. After a 1-7 start the head coach was canned. Lets take a look at that "super talented" team:
Click to expand...

Except Garrett, and there lies your problem.
 
Matts4313

Matts4313

Well-Known Member
Messages
346
Reaction score
267
tecolote said:
Except Garrett, and there lies your problem.
Click to expand...

Really? Thats all the response you could muster? Youre not even going to address my contention?

Seems kind of lazy to say that, especially since he neither calls the offense or the defense and both of those are being ran by well thought of coordinators.
 
LucaBrasi

LucaBrasi

Sleeps with the fishes
Messages
5,589
Reaction score
7,495
I thought Garrett's mismanagement of the clock in Detroit was a fireable offense, he's not a big time coach and I'm not sure he ever will be. With that said, the early returns on Bill Callahan as a play caller show the offense regressing, at least imo, and that's with a slightly improved o-line. Also, no way in hell Jerry makes a better hire if JG is let go. He'll get someone just as bad or worse.

Defensively, I can't stand the cover 2, much prefer the 3-4 to the 4-3, but if we are blaming Kiffin here that's been the pattern of behavior for over a decade now. First, it was Mike Zimmer's fault. What's Zim up to these days? (wink, wink). Then it was that dope Wade Phillips fault, right? Right? He's only been coaching successful defense for 30 years. So we get Rob Ryan and can him after 2 years. Now Kiffin sucks. I would think at some point the blame lies with the players or perhaps the man in charge of player acquisition?

Guess my point is - that while we have a few players, primarily at skill positions that are above average, this team is nowhere close to championship caliber in the trenches, at safety, at linebacker (Lee excluded), or probably at running back.
 
tecolote

tecolote

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,038
Reaction score
1,196
Matts4313 said:
Really? Thats all the response you could muster? Youre not even going to address my contention?
Seems kind of lazy to say that, especially since he neither calls the offense or the defense and both of those are being ran by well thought of coordinators.
Click to expand...

Look, the team that Garret inherited had won 2 NFC East crowns, had an 11 and 13 win season and won a playoff game the year before Garrett was named interim coach, as a matter of fact, they were regarded by some as favorites to represent the NFC in the SB in that year. So your reasoning may be a little flawed.

I do give credit to Garrett in improving the talent on the team, we are a better team on paper than we were in 2010, but, the results on the field have been the same, his game managment still leave a lot to be desired and his offense is as stale and uncreative as it has ever been.

So, to sum it up, if the players are better but the results are the same I have no option but to put the blame on the head coach.
 
roughneck266

roughneck266

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,367
Reaction score
2,841
At least defensively speaking, and that at this moment is a very large part of what is "wrong" with the Cowboys. They arent coaching a large portion of the players they intended to be. These guys we got off the street are doing an awesome job, but I dont think they are doing the job that we would have gotten from a healthy Spencer, Rat, and even Ware. This means the secondary has to cover longer and that doesnt help them either. Also means the Offense has to play a different game in order to try and keep the defense off the field.
I think there have been issues with the coaching, but I do not believe that is the only reason we have had issues.
 
Corso

Corso

Offseason mode... sleepy time
Messages
34,768
Reaction score
63,194
Matts4313 said:
Just wanted to point out a couple ideas. I keep reading here that Garrett is terrible and he along with all the other coaches (save Rod) need to be fired cause they suck at their job. There are a lot of comparisons to the quick turn around with other franchises (Chiefs, Niners, etc). Here is some food for thought:

Almost every coach on the roster under Garrett was extremely successful prior to joining the Cowboys. They were considered great secondary coaches, LB coaches, OC/OL coaches, etc. So why aren't they having success here? Did the game pass them by? Did they get figured out?

Or perhaps they working with a roster that is not nearly as talented as its fan base believes. Take a trip down memory lane with me - destination, 2010. The hype that season was unreal. People claimed we had the best roster in the NFL. The Cowboys had finally got the monkey off the back and won a playoff game. We were poised to win the division again and this time go all the way. After a 1-7 start the head coach was canned. Lets take a look at that "super talented" team:


2010 Roster -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Dallas_Cowboys_season#Week_1_roster

Quarterbacks
Running Backs

Wide Receivers

Tight Ends

Offensive Linemen
Defensive Linemen

Linebackers
Defensive Backs

Special Teams

Reserve Lists
Practice Squad

53 Active, 2 Inactive, 8 PS

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does that look at talented today as we thought it was when Garrett took over?
QB - Same
RB - Terrible
WR - 2 good players, rest suck
TE - Good
OL - Terrible, need to improve every spot (save Free, and even that is questionable)

DL - Good
OLB - Good
ILB - Terrible (Lee is only good player, and he is a back up)
CB - Terrible
S - Terrible

From a quick glance through - there are only like 11-12 guys on our 2010 team that are starters *on any team in the NFL*. There are only ~15-20ish guys that even make a game day roster. Think about that. The team that Garrett inherited was so bad that roughly 75% of the players aren't good enough to make it on any team in the NFL. Like, they suck so bad they cant help the Jags, Bucs, ANYONE.

I will save going through the same exercise with our current roster. But for everyone who keeps saying the coaches suck and we are too talented to be perennially 8-8 - Remember that you probably thought we were super talented in 2010 too... Maybe we should take a closer look into how talented we really are. Maybe its not the coaching, maybe its the roster.
Click to expand...


I think this a very good post and puts some things into perspective.

Thank you.
 
03EBZ06

03EBZ06

Need2Speed
Messages
7,984
Reaction score
411
There are 44 new players on the 53 man roster since 2010, that's 83% turnover in 3 seasons along with majority of new coaches, it's been rebuild process, imo.

JG is instilling his philosophy the rebuilding process while learning his job, those three things makes very challenging task, on top of that he has to deal with meddling owner. I still think JG has lot to learn and can be a better HC, which I believe he will with some more seasoning. As for players like I said we have lot of players, especially on defensive side and they are learning as well, so I say little of both.
 
Alexander

Alexander

What's it going to be then, eh?
Messages
62,482
Reaction score
67,294
Matts4313 said:
Really? Thats all the response you could muster? Youre not even going to address my contention?

Seems kind of lazy to say that, especially since he neither calls the offense or the defense and both of those are being ran by well thought of coordinators.
Click to expand...

He called the offense last year and it is still his offensive system as it has been for the last seven years.

One thing to consider about the coaching versus talent debate. It is not either or. It is not black or white.

They are interwoven.

The coaches are not just handed a roster and told to coach. Their input, the selection of their systems, all of it--plays into the talent that is selected and retained from year to year.

Overall the philosophical approaches taken will drive the talent acquisition process.

Blaming either side and expecting one to be truly responsible for struggles is not especially beneficial. It would be nice to have an answer, it is just not that simple.
 
khiladi

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,965
Reaction score
37,488
Wait, Garrett wasn't responsible for the picks on offense since 2007 when he was here and jerry was asking him if he wanted Felix Jones? You mea Jon Kitna wasn't here because he essentally ran the same offense in Detroit that Garrett ran here. I guess Wade wanted Brad Johnson during that time.

BTW, many of these guys that one claims Garrett cleaned up were veterans, which is why they are not on the roster anymore, meaning it was only Jason's timing as HC that coincided with their departure. Anybody who took over would have that same roster turnover.
 
khiladi

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,965
Reaction score
37,488
I just love these false assumptions from the get go, the primary being JG had no part in any of the drafting on offense during his years here. It's not like Wade wasn't given a bunch of veterans to deal with from Parcells crew, like Jason Ferguson, Bradie James, ANthony Henry and youn crubs like Jacques Reeves and many other players. The excuses are just hilarious for this guy JG...

This is the very guy that got over-ruled on Floyd for Frederik, when the weak link of the team was OL, especially up the middle...
 
ABQCOWBOY

ABQCOWBOY

Regular Joe....
Messages
58,929
Reaction score
27,716
garrett316 said:
I thought Garrett's mismanagement of the clock in Detroit was a fireable offense, he's not a big time coach and I'm not sure he ever will be. With that said, the early returns on Bill Callahan as a play caller show the offense regressing, at least imo, and that's with a slightly improved o-line. Also, no way in hell Jerry makes a better hire if JG is let go. He'll get someone just as bad or worse.

Defensively, I can't stand the cover 2, much prefer the 3-4 to the 4-3, but if we are blaming Kiffin here that's been the pattern of behavior for over a decade now. First, it was Mike Zimmer's fault. What's Zim up to these days? (wink, wink). Then it was that dope Wade Phillips fault, right? Right? He's only been coaching successful defense for 30 years. So we get Rob Ryan and can him after 2 years. Now Kiffin sucks. I would think at some point the blame lies with the players or perhaps the man in charge of player acquisition?

Guess my point is - that while we have a few players, primarily at skill positions that are above average, this team is nowhere close to championship caliber in the trenches, at safety, at linebacker (Lee excluded), or probably at running back.
Click to expand...

Not everybody agrees that Garrett mismanaged the clock.
 
khiladi

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,965
Reaction score
37,488
Don't even get me started on how Jerry Jones has done everything in his power to make life easy for his clown. Wade was straddled with Dave Campo as his secondary coach with better CBs than he had his first year with Jacques Reeves and Anthony Henry and he still got more out of than seconday than Campo did with his talent. And Jerry decides to give Jason Garrett a Pro-Bowl corner and the top CB in the draft essentially, while firing Campo who was brought here by Jerry anyways, not Wade and now got him the best DL coach in the game in Marinelli as well.

Jerry went out and bartered a 1, 2, and 3 in 2009 to help the ailing offense of Jason Garrett wth Roy Williams. Wade always made it clear he would't draft a WR in the first round, yet that's put on Wade. Wade wantd Chris Johnson and Mike Solari, and JJ went out and got Felix Jones, whome Garrett openly said he wantd and an aging Hudson Houck to, who BTW retired for Jason Garrett. Yet, that's all put on Wade, not JG.

JG doesn't even need to do politics, cause his homers do it for him by spreading all these myths.
 
ChooChoo73

ChooChoo73

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,100
Reaction score
603
Garrett seems to embrace the practice of acquiring talent for talent sake just like Jerry and not to build an actual team. When you don't build a team but acquire talent randomly but instead because it's available you get teams that have too much talent in spots to finish last, but no identity to lean on to be good at anything in particular. The Cowboys can have success but it will be despite themselves and most likely when/if a few stars can have a 4-5 game stretch where they are all on fire at the same time and dominant. Otherwise, we will continue to look at crappy, schizophrenic play from game to game and most certainly when the game is on the line. Garrett needs to declare what we are, build and practice it, and deploy it. Instead, he probably marvels at all the talent and approaches games saying how will "they" stop all our weapons when in reality, "they" don't need to. Opponents just need to do what they do best and watch us fall apart when we get to a point in the game when we need to actually out-execute the opponent in a situation that is obvious to both sides. Yes, it's coaching.
 
khiladi

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,965
Reaction score
37,488
Funny how everybody was saying Wade was a lame-duck coach that was just buying time for Garrett to take the reigns and it was JJs plan and now want to say that JG inherited a mess from Wade. I guess JJ was just setting it upto make JG look like the worst coach ever in the 3 years he was here.. Brilliant plan....
 
Alexander

Alexander

What's it going to be then, eh?
Messages
62,482
Reaction score
67,294
khiladi said:
Anybody who took over would have that same roster turnover.
Click to expand...
The assumption that since he was not the head coach and was just waiting to take over to clean up the roster is a huge stretch--one that I find amazing people actually believe.
 
khiladi

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,965
Reaction score
37,488
Bwareinrings94 said:
Garrett seems to embrace the practice of acquiring talent for talent sake just like Jerry and not to build an actual team. When you don't build a team but acquire talent randomly but instead because it's available you get teams that have too much talent in spots to finish last, but no identity to lean on to be good at anything in particular. The Cowboys can have success but it will be despite themselves and most likely when/if a few stars can have a 4-5 game stretch where they are all on fire at the same time and dominant. Otherwise, we will continue to look at crappy, schizophrenic play from game to game and most certainly when the game is on the line. Garrett needs to declare what we are, build and practice it, and deploy it. Instead, he probably marvels at all the talent and approaches games saying how will "they" stop all our weapons when in reality, "they" don't need to. Opponents just need to do what they do best and watch us fall apart when we get to a point in the game when we need to actually out-execute the opponent in a situation that is obvious to both sides. Yes, it's coaching.
Click to expand...

Garrett has openly said his draft philosophy is to draft best player available, not by need. They only draft by need when the issue of best player available is 'disputed'...
 
texbumthelife

texbumthelife

Well-Known Member
Messages
22,738
Reaction score
23,273
While I like the original post and agree with many of the ideas;

Callahan was under a lot of fire, and had been for years, for his play calling before we brought him in. He was only supposed to work with the OL originally and then it mushroomed into his current role.

Kiffin, while historically successful in the NFL, had endured some of the worst defensive seasons in the history of USC.

Even Garrett, when he took over as head coach, was under the spotlight because he had previously had no head coaching experience at any level.

Obviously, this season is a mixture of coaching, growing pains and injuries, as well as lack of talent at some key positions. I believe those who blame either coaching or lack of talent could absolutely be right.
 
khiladi

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,965
Reaction score
37,488
Alexander said:
The assumption that since he was not the head coach and was just waiting to take over to clean up the roster is a huge stretch--one that I find amazing people actually believe.
Click to expand...

It's uttery absurd. JG had absolute control over this offense and it was well-documented that Wade didn't even really attend the practices of offense. Yet, Garrett was supposedly just coaching players, though it's been his system in place for a little over 6 years, and had no say in his offensve coaching staff or roster picks... It's a big joke the xcuses they make for this guy...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top