Is it the coaching or the roster?

[Alexander]

Instead, he probably marvels at all the talent and approaches games saying how will "they" stop all our weapons when in reality, "they" don't need to. Opponents just need to do what they do best and watch us fall apart when we get to a point in the game when we need to actually out-execute the opponent in a situation that is obvious to both sides. Yes, it's coaching.

Often effective coaching is not just stopping the opposing talent. It is stopping what the talent is doing. The way they are doing it. Exceptional players can tip the balance, but those exceptional types are not common and no roster can be constructed to make the balance skew.

 

[Matts4313]

Wait, Garrett wasn't responsible for the picks on offense since 2007 when he was here and jerry was asking him if he wanted Felix Jones? You mea Jon Kitna wasn't here because he essentally ran the same offense in Detroit that Garrett ran here. I guess Wade wanted Brad Johnson during that time.

BTW, many of these guys that one claims Garrett cleaned up were veterans, which is why they are not on the roster anymore, meaning it was only Jason's timing as HC that coincided with their departure. Anybody who took over would have that same roster turnover.

Obviously the drafting and player development has been DRAMATICALLY better under Garrett than Phillips. I dont know exactly why, but the proof is there. Is it because Garrett covets a different type of player, and the scouts have adjusted to his demands? IS it because we got rid of camp cup-cake and have a real legit camp now? Is it because practices are tougher? More detailed? Is it because there is greater accountability? Is it because we are more cohesive now? Maybe there is better leadership?

Could be some, could be all of those. All I know is that the team struggled to find young talent and develop it for several years in a row. That lead to a roster that was not nearly as talented as we all thought.

---------------------

Conversely, take a look at some of the other quick turn arounds. Chiefs are doing it with an identical (albeit more healthy) roster as the year before. The 9ers already had Davis, Crabtree, Gore, Willis, Bowman, Smith, Goldston, their entire OL, etc... When Harbaugh stepped in. The Colts just so happened to get the #1 overall pick the year Andrew Luck happened to declare - - not really a repeatable process.

 

[Alexander]

Obviously the drafting and player development has been DRAMATICALLY better under Garrett than Phillips. I dont know exactly why, but the proof is there.

How is there "proof" it is dramatically better? What is the criteria being used?

Two of our top players, Lee and Bryant were drafted when Phillips was the head coach.

 

[Matts4313]

Funny how everybody was saying Wade was a lame-duck coach that was just buying time for Garrett to take the reigns and it was JJs plan and now want to say that JG inherited a mess from Wade. I guess JJ was just setting it upto make JG look like the worst coach ever in the 3 years he was here.. Brilliant plan....

Wade inherited a roster that had like 15 freaking probowlers on it and by the time he left, there was barely 15 people who should even been in the NFL. You can try to blame that on Garrett, but it sure sounds silly.

 

[texbumthelife]

I think Garrett has done a better job committing to playing the younger guys. I do, however, think it's a stretch to say he has drafted much better.

 

[Matts4313]

How is there "proof" it is dramatically better? What is the criteria being used?

Two of our top players, Lee and Bryant were drafted when Phillips was the head coach.

But they were developed under Garrett. Neither player was even a starter for Phillips. And though I have no doubts that Lee would still be a player - you must be kidding me if you think that Dez would have not struggled to develop under Phillips system of no player accountability, a splintered WR group, special WR meetings were they can sit around and bish about the OC, on top of blaming their QB for having special Witten plays.

Please, that would of turned Dez into TO part two. Hell, the most "Diva" thing Dez ever did was under Phillips when he refused to carry the pads.

The locker room that Garrett fosters clearly led to Dez being a better person. Dez has even said so himself.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Wade inherited a roster that had like 15 freaking probowlers on it and by the time he left, there was barely 15 people who should even been in the NFL. You can try to blame that on Garrett, but it sure sounds silly.

He inherited a roster with four originally selected Pro Bowlers: Romo, Ware, Roy Williams, and McBriar.

I guarantee you weren't claiming in 2010 that we had no talent. Then it was that our idiot coach couldn't get anything out of all the talent we had.

Please, this thread is so biased it's ridiculous. You clearly started from a place of "defend Garrett" and bent the facts to fit your point of view.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

A pretty smart old soul once said about another pretty smart old horse, the following:

“He can take his’n and beat your’n, and then turn around and take your’n and beat his’n.”

 

[Matts4313]

I think Garrett has done a better job committing to playing the younger guys. I do, however, think it's a stretch to say he has drafted much better.

Its not just drafting, its drafting and player development. Camp Cupcake did not make the players better. Being soft and a players coach did not make players better. Having no rules didnt make the players better. Making an excuse for every mistake the players made didnt make the players better.

From 2006 - 2009 we had 34 draft picks. Wade successfully developed 4 players (Hatcher, Spencer, Scandrick, Free). Maybe thats because Wade let Jerry do all the drafting and he stayed out of it, but even if thats true, it was a stupid for him to do that. The vast majority of players selected/developed under Wade only started a handful of games, and thats if they became a starter at all.

But again - here are the facts. Wade took over a TRULY talented roster, and by the time he was fired, it was lacking talent. And though I like the direction Garrett is taking the team, I still think we are not as talented as other believe (though its headed in the right direction). Some of that is injuries, some of that is trying to replace so many holes.

 

[Matts4313]

He inherited a roster with four originally selected Pro Bowlers: Romo, Ware, Roy Williams, and McBriar.

I guarantee you weren't claiming in 2010 that we had no talent. Then it was that our idiot coach couldn't get anything out of all the talent we had.

Please, this thread is so biased it's ridiculous. You clearly started from a place of "defend Garrett" and bent the facts to fit your point of view.

Actually that is exactly my point. I thought we had a talented roster in 2010. I was just as hyped as everyone else. I thought it was poor coaching. All of what you just said is correct.

But I learned from it that sometimes you may think you have a talented roster, and you really dont. That is the whole point of this thread.

 

[Bullflop]

Most any team that has had the absurd number of injuries that the Cowboys have experienced for the past two years is almost guaranteed to have serious problems. Especially so with the highly limited talent this team has had at the backup positions on both lines. In addition to that, the Cowboys are one of the most over-hyped teams in the NFL talentwise. Granted, they're talented enough but certainly not to the extent that their hype would like to suggest. Serving that particular priority is undoubtedly one of Jerry's most notable and active functions.

 

[BigStar]

I thought Garrett's mismanagement of the clock in Detroit was a fireable offense, he's not a big time coach and I'm not sure he ever will be. With that said, the early returns on Bill Callahan as a play caller show the offense regressing, at least imo, and that's with a slightly improved o-line. Also, no way in hell Jerry makes a better hire if JG is let go. He'll get someone just as bad or worse.

Defensively, I can't stand the cover 2, much prefer the 3-4 to the 4-3, but if we are blaming Kiffin here that's been the pattern of behavior for over a decade now. First, it was Mike Zimmer's fault. What's Zim up to these days? (wink, wink). Then it was that dope Wade Phillips fault, right? Right? He's only been coaching successful defense for 30 years. So we get Rob Ryan and can him after 2 years. Now Kiffin sucks. I would think at some point the blame lies with the players or perhaps the man in charge of player acquisition?

Guess my point is - that while we have a few players, primarily at skill positions that are above average, this team is nowhere close to championship caliber in the trenches, at safety, at linebacker (Lee excluded), or probably at running back.

I agree with just about everything you said but the problem being that recent SB winners haven't exactly been elite at every position so some fans (me included) can't accept this reasoning. How can the team be THAT close in terms of competitveness against good teams (Den, Detroit(ish), KC) and not have some talent. If this team and its lacking talent can compete and only lose mainly due to clock management and an erratic, stale, offense; it seems that coaching HAS to play a part.

 

[ChooChoo73]

Garrett has openly said his draft philosophy is to draft best player available, not by need. They only draft by need when the issue of best player available is 'disputed'...

And when you do not have an infrastructure or philosophy for the team, you then are bringing that talent into something random which is how this team has looked under his leadership. If you are committed to balance, or spread em and shred em, or a play action based offense, or read option, than it is much easier to know which of the talented options to select from he should choose.

 

[Nova]

I hate to be the guy that brings this up, but the reason this team is average is because the offensive and defensive lines are average to below.

We're headed in the right direction, so don't take that as me blindly complaining.

We need to continue the commitment of getting better on the offensive and defensive lines. It's easy to look at the DL and say 'we need to get better', but we really need to continue that with the offensive line as well.

Keep getting younger.

That said. I hate the offensive playbook. It's quite pathetic the majority of the time.

 

[khiladi]

Obviously the drafting and player development has been DRAMATICALLY better under Garrett than Phillips. I dont know exactly why, but the proof is there. Is it because Garrett covets a different type of player, and the scouts have adjusted to his demands? IS it because we got rid of camp cup-cake and have a real legit camp now? Is it because practices are tougher? More detailed? Is it because there is greater accountability? Is it because we are more cohesive now? Maybe there is better leadership?

So your saying JG had no say in drafting offensive players but had total control of the offense while here in Dallas? When Dallas bartered away 3 draft picks to get Roy Williams, do you think Jerry got Wade's input or a guy calling all the plays?

 

[khiladi]

And when you do not have an infrastructure or philosophy for the team, you then are bringing that talent into something random which is how this team has looked under his leadership. If you are committed to balance, or spread em and shred em, or a play action based offense, or read option, than it is much easier to know which of the talented options to select from he should choose.

Exactly, which is why none of his defenders can really say that Garrett wanted Frederik. Floyd was the best available player per their draft boards. Jerry over-ruled the reports when he asked Marinelli what he thought. And we needed to hve protection for Romo up front, especially considering JG couldn't adjust to a bllitz up the middle against the Skins.

 

[khiladi]

If Wade could do what he want with Jason Garrett, why was Wade forced to fire Brian Stewart, the guy he was grooming to become a DC? The excuses for JG are just comical...

 

[khiladi]

But again - here are the facts. Wade took over a TRULY talented roster, and by the time he was fired, it was lacking talent. And though I like the direction Garrett is taking the team, I still think we are not as talented as other believe (though its headed in the right direction). Some of that is injuries, some of that is trying to replace so many holes.

By the time he was fired, the offense was performing like it's still was performing with Jason Garrett as head coach... The offense wouldn't run the ball the to control TOP and it doesn't now and didn't when JG was OC. It still doesn't deploy any motion and having it' number one receiver running in the slot and it still relies on Romo to wing it.

 

[big dog cowboy]

There are 44 new players on the 53 man roster since 2010, that's 83% turnover in 3 seasons along with majority of new coaches, it's been rebuild process, imo.

JG is instilling his philosophy the rebuilding process while learning his job, those three things makes very challenging task, on top of that he has to deal with meddling owner.

Holy Moly.

 

[khiladi]

Conversely, take a look at some of the other quick turn arounds. Chiefs are doing it with an identical (albeit more healthy) roster as the year before. The 9ers already had Davis, Crabtree, Gore, Willis, Bowman, Smith, Goldston, their entire OL, etc... When Harbaugh stepped in. The Colts just so happened to get the #1 overall pick the year Andrew Luck happened to declare - - not really a repeatable process.

How does this prove Garrett is a good coach if Andy Reid turned around the Chiefs in one year and Jason Garrett is stuck at 8-8 with a team that won a play-off game, with a crappy secondary with Wade as coach? How does it prove your point when the 49ers have a garbage QB compared to Romo an Crabtree isn't even playing and can't touch Dez's jock strap as a WR?