Is it the coaching or the roster?

[Beast_from_East]

Just wanted to point out a couple ideas. I keep reading here that Garrett is terrible and he along with all the other coaches (save Rod) need to be fired cause they suck at their job. There are a lot of comparisons to the quick turn around with other franchises (Chiefs, Niners, etc). Here is some food for thought:

Almost every coach on the roster under Garrett was extremely successful prior to joining the Cowboys. They were considered great secondary coaches, LB coaches, OC/OL coaches, etc. So why aren't they having success here? Did the game pass them by? Did they get figured out?

Or perhaps they working with a roster that is not nearly as talented as its fan base believes. Take a trip down memory lane with me - destination, 2010. The hype that season was unreal. People claimed we had the best roster in the NFL. The Cowboys had finally got the monkey off the back and won a playoff game. We were poised to win the division again and this time go all the way. After a 1-7 start the head coach was canned. Lets take a look at that "super talented" team:


2010 Roster -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Dallas_Cowboys_season#Week_1_roster

Quarterbacks

• 3 Jon Kitna
• 7 Stephen McGee
• 9 Tony Romo

Running Backs

• 34 Deon Anderson FB
• 24 Marion Barber III
• 23 Tashard Choice
• 44 Chris Gronkowski FB
• 28 Felix Jones

Wide Receivers

• 19 Miles Austin
• 88 Dez Bryant PR
• 17 Sam Hurd
• 85 Kevin Ogletree
• 11 Roy Williams

Tight Ends

• 80 Martellus Bennett
• 82 Jason Witten

Offensive Linemen

• 71 Alex Barron T
• 79 Robert Brewster T
• 75 Marc Colombo T
• 67 Phil Costa C/G
• 70 Leonard Davis G
• 68 Doug Free T
• 65 Andre Gurode C/G
• 64 Montrae Holland G
• 63 Kyle Kosier G/C
• 76 Sam Young T

Defensive Linemen

• 72 Stephen Bowen DE
• 92 Josh Brent NT
• 97 Jason Hatcher DE
• 95 Sean Lissemore NT/DE
• 99 Igor Olshansky DE
• 90 Jay Ratliff NT
• 96 Marcus Spears DE

Linebackers

• 51 Keith Brooking ILB
• 57 Victor Butler OLB/DE
• 56 Bradie James ILB
• 50 Sean Lee ILB
• 93 Anthony Spencer OLB/DE
• 94 DeMarcus Ware OLB/DE
• 59 Brandon Williams OLB/DE
• 58 Jason Williams ILB
• 52 Leon Williams ILB

Defensive Backs

• 20 Alan Ball FS/CB
• 42 Barry Church SS
• 36 Michael Hamlin SS/FS
• 21 Mike Jenkins CB
• 40 Danny McCray FS
• 41 Terence Newman CB
• 27 Akwasi Owusu-Ansah FS/CB/KR
• 32 Orlando Scandrick CB
• 43 Gerald Sensabaugh SS

Special Teams

• 18 David Buehler K
• 91 L. P. Ladouceur LS
• 1 Mat McBriar P

Reserve Lists

• 55 Stephen Hodge ILB (PUP)
• 89 John Phillips (IR)

Practice Squad

• 60 Travis Bright G
• 86 Scott Chandler TE
• 16 Jesse Holley WR
• 15 Manuel Johnson WR
• 78 Cliff Louis OT
• 35 Lonyae Miller RB
• 83 Martin Rucker TE
• 29 Teddy Williams CB/WR

53 Active, 2 Inactive, 8 PS

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does that look at talented today as we thought it was when Garrett took over?
QB - Same
RB - Terrible
WR - 2 good players, rest suck
TE - Good
OL - Terrible, need to improve every spot (save Free, and even that is questionable)

DL - Good
OLB - Good
ILB - Terrible (Lee is only good player, and he is a back up)
CB - Terrible
S - Terrible

From a quick glance through - there are only like 11-12 guys on our 2010 team that are starters *on any team in the NFL*. There are only ~15-20ish guys that even make a game day roster. Think about that. The team that Garrett inherited was so bad that roughly 75% of the players aren't good enough to make it on any team in the NFL. Like, they suck so bad they cant help the Jags, Bucs, ANYONE.

I will save going through the same exercise with our current roster. But for everyone who keeps saying the coaches suck and we are too talented to be perennially 8-8 - Remember that you probably thought we were super talented in 2010 too... Maybe we should take a closer look into how talented we really are. Maybe its not the coaching, maybe its the roster.

If the 2010 team was so bad and just had scrubs all over the place.....................why was Wade fired?

Yea, they started out 1-7, but if what you say is true, it was the lack of talent and not the coaching that was the problem.

Also, the only blow out during that 1-7 stretch was to Green Bay. All the other losses were close. For example, the game against the Skins was a 6 point loss when a game winning TD pass was nulified due to an Alex Barron hold. Previously in the first half, Choice fumbled the ball and it was returned for a TD as the half expired. Both mistakes committed by the offense and yet Garrett skates and Wade is blamed?

Even Jerry has said Wade had nothing to do with the offense. Garrett had full autonomy over 50% of this team since 2007................so this crap that he inherited everything is laughable..............he was the freaking co-pilot when the plane crashed.

 

[Matts4313]

How does this prove Garrett is a good coach if Andy Reid turned around the Chiefs in one year and Jason Garrett is stuck at 8-8 with a team that won a play-off game, with a crappy secondary with Wade as coach? How does it prove your point when the 49ers have a garbage QB compared to Romo an Crabtree isn't even playing and can't touch Dez's jock strap as a WR?

dude... There are like 5 people that were on both those rosters..
how are you not getting this? By the time wade left, the talent was gone too. Unlike teams like the cheifs, that had a lot of talent but a terrible coach.

 

[Matts4313]

If the 2010 team was so bad and just had scrubs all over the place.....................why was Wade fired?

Yea, they started out 1-7, but if what you say is true, it was the lack of talent and not the coaching that was the problem.

Also, the only blow out during that 1-7 stretch was to Green Bay. All the other losses were close. For example, the game against the Skins was a 6 point loss when a game winning TD pass was nulified due to an Alex Barron hold. Previously in the first half, Choice fumbled the ball and it was returned for a TD as the half expired. Both mistakes committed by the offense and yet Garrett skates and Wade is blamed?

Even Jerry has said Wade had nothing to do with the offense. Garrett had full autonomy over 50% of this team since 2007................so this crap that he inherited everything is laughable..............he was the freaking co-pilot when the plane crashed.

wade was fired because of the inability to develop players. Every year he was here, our roster got worse. He isn't a bad DC, but there's got to be some reason why the entire culture and drafting changed when he was fired.


why didn't he implement the process needed to improve the culture? Why was the locker room so divided? Why did 30+ draft picks all flame out under him?

 

[BHendri5]

Just wanted to point out a couple ideas. I keep reading here that Garrett is terrible and he along with all the other coaches (save Rod) need to be fired cause they suck at their job. There are a lot of comparisons to the quick turn around with other franchises (Chiefs, Niners, etc). Here is some food for thought:

Almost every coach on the roster under Garrett was extremely successful prior to joining the Cowboys. They were considered great secondary coaches, LB coaches, OC/OL coaches, etc. So why aren't they having success here? Did the game pass them by? Did they get figured out?

Or perhaps they working with a roster that is not nearly as talented as its fan base believes. Take a trip down memory lane with me - destination, 2010. The hype that season was unreal. People claimed we had the best roster in the NFL. The Cowboys had finally got the monkey off the back and won a playoff game. We were poised to win the division again and this time go all the way. After a 1-7 start the head coach was canned. Lets take a look at that "super talented" team:


2010 Roster -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Dallas_Cowboys_season#Week_1_roster

Quarterbacks

• 3 Jon Kitna
• 7 Stephen McGee
• 9 Tony Romo

Running Backs

• 34 Deon Anderson FB
• 24 Marion Barber III
• 23 Tashard Choice
• 44 Chris Gronkowski FB
• 28 Felix Jones

Wide Receivers

• 19 Miles Austin
• 88 Dez Bryant PR
• 17 Sam Hurd
• 85 Kevin Ogletree
• 11 Roy Williams

Tight Ends

• 80 Martellus Bennett
• 82 Jason Witten

Offensive Linemen

• 71 Alex Barron T
• 79 Robert Brewster T
• 75 Marc Colombo T
• 67 Phil Costa C/G
• 70 Leonard Davis G
• 68 Doug Free T
• 65 Andre Gurode C/G
• 64 Montrae Holland G
• 63 Kyle Kosier G/C
• 76 Sam Young T

Defensive Linemen

• 72 Stephen Bowen DE
• 92 Josh Brent NT
• 97 Jason Hatcher DE
• 95 Sean Lissemore NT/DE
• 99 Igor Olshansky DE
• 90 Jay Ratliff NT
• 96 Marcus Spears DE

Linebackers

• 51 Keith Brooking ILB
• 57 Victor Butler OLB/DE
• 56 Bradie James ILB
• 50 Sean Lee ILB
• 93 Anthony Spencer OLB/DE
• 94 DeMarcus Ware OLB/DE
• 59 Brandon Williams OLB/DE
• 58 Jason Williams ILB
• 52 Leon Williams ILB

Defensive Backs

• 20 Alan Ball FS/CB
• 42 Barry Church SS
• 36 Michael Hamlin SS/FS
• 21 Mike Jenkins CB
• 40 Danny McCray FS
• 41 Terence Newman CB
• 27 Akwasi Owusu-Ansah FS/CB/KR
• 32 Orlando Scandrick CB
• 43 Gerald Sensabaugh SS

Special Teams

• 18 David Buehler K
• 91 L. P. Ladouceur LS
• 1 Mat McBriar P

Reserve Lists

• 55 Stephen Hodge ILB (PUP)
• 89 John Phillips (IR)

Practice Squad

• 60 Travis Bright G
• 86 Scott Chandler TE
• 16 Jesse Holley WR
• 15 Manuel Johnson WR
• 78 Cliff Louis OT
• 35 Lonyae Miller RB
• 83 Martin Rucker TE
• 29 Teddy Williams CB/WR

53 Active, 2 Inactive, 8 PS

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does that look at talented today as we thought it was when Garrett took over?
QB - Same
RB - Terrible
WR - 2 good players, rest suck
TE - Good
OL - Terrible, need to improve every spot (save Free, and even that is questionable)

DL - Good
OLB - Good
ILB - Terrible (Lee is only good player, and he is a back up)
CB - Terrible
S - Terrible

From a quick glance through - there are only like 11-12 guys on our 2010 team that are starters *on any team in the NFL*. There are only ~15-20ish guys that even make a game day roster. Think about that. The team that Garrett inherited was so bad that roughly 75% of the players aren't good enough to make it on any team in the NFL. Like, they suck so bad they cant help the Jags, Bucs, ANYONE.

I will save going through the same exercise with our current roster. But for everyone who keeps saying the coaches suck and we are too talented to be perennially 8-8 - Remember that you probably thought we were super talented in 2010 too... Maybe we should take a closer look into how talented we really are. Maybe its not the coaching, maybe its the roster.

great point, I was saying the same thing for since 2010. People are letting the media and the stupid analysts, former players and none players, do not know what the hell they are talking about, even former coaches. No, I'll amend that some do know what they are talking about but the networks they work for wants rating so they say crazy stuff, to keep the unknowing bamboozled.

Yes, it is the roster. That is why Garrett gets a very good grade in my opinion, he is and has done a masterful job of coaching the past 2 seasons and this season, but if you do not know, football or even care to give Garrett the benefit of the doubt to even do some research to learn, you'll jump on the let's get rid of Garrett and the coaches bandwagon. Jerry needs to let Garrett finish cleaning out those remaining holdovers from Parcells and Phillops regime and keep putting his type of guys on the team.

Nevis and Everette Brown are just 2 of the guys that fit the Tampa 2, DL type, they will stick and that helps us when the draft comes around. Plus we are seeing who will be our depth/rotational guys too .

 

[Beast_from_East]

wade was fired because of the inability to develop players. Every year he was here, our roster got worse. He isn't a bad DC, but there's got to be some reason why the entire culture and drafting changed when he was fired.


why didn't he implement the process needed to improve the culture? Why was the locker room so divided? Why did 30+ draft picks all flame out under him?

So Wade won 2 division titles and a playoff game in 3.5 seasons.....................and the culture and drafting sucked?

Garrett in just about the same time period has not even had 1 single winning season.................and the culture and drafting is excellent?


You are correct that everything changed with Garrett.............the drafting, the culture, and the actual winning of games.............all of that changed under Garrett.

 

[TrailBlazer]

Conversely, take a look at some of the other quick turn arounds. Chiefs are doing it with an identical (albeit more healthy) roster as the year before. The 9ers already had Davis, Crabtree, Gore, Willis, Bowman, Smith, Goldston, their entire OL, etc... When Harbaugh stepped in. The Colts just so happened to get the #1 overall pick the year Andrew Luck happened to declare - - not really a repeatable process.

The 49ers and chiefs took pretty much the same roster as the previous year and simply inserted a good HC and look what happened. They started playing up to their potential. They're contenders now.

How is that not a repeatable process?

 

[Beast_from_East]

The 49ers and chiefs took pretty much the same roster as the previous year and simply inserted a good HC and look what happened. They started playing up to their potential. They're contenders now.

How is that not a repeatable process?

Because the new excuse for Garrett is that he inherited expansion-like talent.

Thats the flavor of the month excuse as to why Andy Reid and Pete Carroll and Harbaugh can take over bad teams and get them good overnight and Garrett cant...........those teams all had way more talent then us and bad coaching was holding them back.

LOL..............whatever.................a team that was 2-14 with the #1 overall pick was just loaded with talent and Andy Reid is just benefiting from all that great talent. If Andy Reid inherited the talent level that Garrett inherited, he would go 500 every season also.

Sure.............................

 

[sbark]

Whats the age old quote that still applies............A good coach can take his'un and beat your'un..............and take your'un and beat his'un (the late great Bum Phillps)

 

[TrailBlazer]

By the time wade left, the talent was gone too. Unlike teams like the cheifs, that had a lot of talent but a terrible coach.

You keep on saying that. But that doesn't mean it's true. Show me something that can actually back up what you are spewing out as fact.

We had Romo. Having a good qb alone gives you a good chance to be successful.
Dez. Miles. Witten. Not bad options to throw to.
MB3 developed nicely and ran hard for Wade.
Seriously no talent?
Sean Lee. Still had Ware. Spencer, rat, tnew has played well in cincy. Pacman too. B. James.
This is just off the top of my head. We had talent then just as we do now. We under achieved. You can't understate the importance of good HC.

 

[TrailBlazer]

Because the new excuse for Garrett is that he inherited expansion-like talent.

Thats the flavor of the month excuse as to why Andy Reid and Pete Carroll and Harbaugh can take over bad teams and get them good overnight and Garrett cant...........those teams all had way more talent then us and bad coaching was holding them back.

LOL..............whatever.................a team that was 2-14 with the #1 overall pick was just loaded with talent and Andy Reid is just benefiting from all that great talent. If Andy Reid inherited the talent level that Garrett inherited, he would go 500 every season also.

Sure.............................

It's laughable really. JG apologists will go to extreme lengths to defend him.
Simply insert a good HC on this team and were a 10-6 team every year instead of 8-8.
Coaching and leadership makes the difference.

 

[xwalker]

I spend a lot of time reviewing the game from both the broadcast and the coaches film.

I really believe the problems are play calling on offense and the players on defense.

IMO, the offensive players are good enough, but defenses are guessing correctly on run/pass based on things like shotgun/no-shotgun.

On defense, they are overachieving their talent.

 

[budsboys]

i believe there have been some coaching issues on the offensive side of the ball as i thought was a problem for a while now. As for the defense i believe it is a lack of depth and talent as for the last two seasons the injuries have been killing us the dline has been crippling this d this year as we cannot produce constant pressure which in turn hurts the dbs along with the lbers

 

[DallasCowboysRule!]

I spend a lot of time reviewing the game from both the broadcast and the coaches film.

I really believe the problems are play calling on offense and the players on defense.

IMO, the offensive players are good enough, but defenses are guessing correctly on run/pass based on things like shotgun/no-shotgun.

On defense, they are overachieving their talent.

I think I agree with this. We know we have holes on defense. Lee is a beast at linebacker but due to injuries the OLBs aren't cutting it. We are weak at safety and our corners have underperformed. Our defensive line is decimated but you gotta give those guys a lot of credit for how they are playing. So an obvious lack of talent on defense.

On offense though, there is no excuse not to be producing like the Saints, Broncos, and other teams with high powered offenses. Romo obviously isn't Brees or Manning but he's a franchise caliber quarterback. Our WRs are better than New Orleans' and we have a great pass catching tight end. I also think Murray has the talent to be a good back and Witt the addition of Frederick on the line the line is no longer ghastly. Yet our offense is plan vanilla and mediocre. We don't use our weapon at RB or let our beast WR win the game for us on a deep pass. We dink and dunk, rarely taking a shot further than 15 yards down the field. Combined with a lack of running game it shrinks the area of the field defenses have to cover and negates our offensive talent. Garrett has been in control of this offense for almost a decade. He deserves a ton of blame on this side of the ball.

 

[dallasdave]

Funny how everybody was saying Wade was a lame-duck coach that was just buying time for Garrett to take the reigns and it was JJs plan and now want to say that JG inherited a mess from Wade. I guess JJ was just setting it upto make JG look like the worst coach ever in the 3 years he was here.. Brilliant plan....

Have not had a good coach in Dallas since Jimmy Johnson.

 

[Matts4313]

The 49ers and chiefs took pretty much the same roster as the previous year and simply inserted a good HC and look what happened. They started playing up to their potential. They're contenders now.

How is that not a repeatable process?

You have to have talent to coach up.

So Wade won 2 division titles and a playoff game in 3.5 seasons.....................and the culture and drafting sucked?

Garrett in just about the same time period has not even had 1 single winning season.................and the culture and drafting is excellent?


You are correct that everything changed with Garrett.............the drafting, the culture, and the actual winning of games.............all of that changed under Garrett.

You cant be serious. We have turned over 80%+ of that roster... and those guys are no longer in the league for ANY team. If they cant make any roster, how was that talent?

I dont understand whats so hard to see here. If those guys were any good, they would still be in the league.... Right?

LOL..............whatever.................a team that was 2-14 with the #1 overall pick was just loaded with talent and Andy Reid is just benefiting from all that great talent. If Andy Reid inherited the talent level that Garrett inherited, he would go 500 every season also.

Sure.............................

Do you even watch teams outside of the Cowboys? The Chiefs had like 8 probowlers in 2011. AND a lot of them were young. Charles, Berry, Hali, Bowe, Flowers, Albert, Johnson.... all of those guys were already there. Hell, I am pretty sure they won the division that year.

You keep on saying that. But that doesn't mean it's true. Show me something that can actually back up what you are spewing out as fact.

We had Romo. Having a good qb alone gives you a good chance to be successful.
Dez. Miles. Witten. Not bad options to throw to.
MB3 developed nicely and ran hard for Wade.
Seriously no talent?
Sean Lee. Still had Ware. Spencer, rat, tnew has played well in cincy. Pacman too. B. James.
This is just off the top of my head. We had talent then just as we do now. We under achieved. You can't understate the importance of good HC.

Read the above.

MB3? Really? Dude is out of the league. Pretty sure James is a back up, he could be out of the league too.
Rat, Lee, Austin cant help the team from the ice tub. A good TE and WR arent enough to win in the NFL.

I understand the importance of a good HC. But I understand if you gave Bill Walsh the current Jags roster, your still just coaching up a stinky turd. But your post is a great example of over hyping mediocre talent (Such as MBs, James).

 

[RS12]

Is it the coaching or the roster?

Both, you forgot to mention GM, so make it all three.

 

[T-RO]

Have not had a good coach in Dallas since Jimmy Johnson.

No way you can say that Parcells wasn't a good coach. And coordinators Payton, Zimmer, and Ryan were awesome. Viewed as a DC, Wade was top drawer.

But look: a fans' instinctive fast-twitch muscles most instinctively and most violently kick at their team's coaches for everything. It's comical sometimes to watch.

If this team's personnel is underperforming...which I doubt...it's not underperforming by much.

 

[Matts4313]

I spend a lot of time reviewing the game from both the broadcast and the coaches film.

I really believe the problems are play calling on offense and the players on defense.

IMO, the offensive players are good enough, but defenses are guessing correctly on run/pass based on things like shotgun/no-shotgun.

On defense, they are overachieving their talent.

I think this is fair. I still think we are not nearly as talented as some of you think. I mean - when we go out on the field Sunday we will be starting an UDFA and Career back up at each guard spot. A Same for both safety spots. The entire DL will be make shift cast offs if Hatcher cant go.

 

[TrailBlazer]

MB3? Really? Dude is out of the league. Pretty sure James is a back up, he could be out of the league too.
Rat, Lee, Austin cant help the team from the ice tub. A good TE and WR arent enough to win in the NFL.

I understand the importance of a good HC. But I understand if you gave Bill Walsh the current Jags roster, your still just coaching up a stinky turd. But your post is a great example of over hyping mediocre talent (Such as MBs, James).

You said wade couldn't draft and develop players, so I brought up MB3. Who he drafted in the 4th and produced like 1st rounder for him. Thought that was pretty clear. Who cares whos out of the league now, when it comes to talent on the roster when wade left?

Your post is a classic example for romo apologists. You're making excuses for JG saying he didn't inherit any talent. Which I disproved in my previous post. Then you decided to go off premise. When you show me something to back up your claims that we didnt have any talent when wade left, then I'll start to take you seriously.

 

[dallasdave]

No way you can say that Parcells wasn't a good coach. And coordinators Payton, Zimmer, and Ryan were awesome. Viewed as a DC, Wade was top drawer.

But look: a fans' instinctive fast-twitch muscles most instinctively and most violently kick at their team's coaches for everything. It's comical sometimes to watch.

If this team's personnel is underperforming...which I doubt...it's not underperforming by much.

I was wrong Barry Switzer was a good coach, he did win the Superbowl, even if it was with Jimmy's team. All the rest of these people did very little in Dallas(Parcells was good in New York). What is comical is the people on this board that think these other coaches were good in Dallas. Let me ask you what has been won since Barry Switzer left, hold on I will answer that, nothing.