Is Stephen Jones a "Football Guy?"

[texmex]

Stephen and Jerry are both football guys...that's not really up for debate...regardless of who has what job title and who has more control now or in the past between the two, the bottom line those two are at the center of player acquisition and management. Now to call them mediocre football guys over the last 15 years isn't a stretch.

The team's record in that time is 120-120. That seems par for the course for mediocre football guys. Are they bad football guys? No. I would expect a much worse record than 120-120 if they were bad.

 

[Hostile]

Is Jason Garrett a football guy? Of course he is but would you hire him to negotiate contracts and manage the salary cap?

The term "football guy" is a bit generic in other words. Stephen Jones more than capable of handling his responsibilities in the organization, probably better than some in his position. I'm not sure where he would rate amongst his peers but I would venture atleast above average.

Great post.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Is Jason Garrett a football guy? Of course he is but would you hire him to negotiate contracts and manage the salary cap?

The term "football guy" is a bit generic in other words. Stephen Jones more than capable of handling his responsibilities in the organization, probably better than some in his position. I'm not sure where he would rate amongst his peers but I would venture atleast above average.

That is a great post.

 

[Dodger12]

It isn't to prop up Jerry. It is to show that building a champion like we had here requires a symbiosis. In Miami do you think he had an owner giving him all that he was getting here?

I don't. Call me jaded, but I never saw that during Jimmy's years in Miami, and I think he was every bit as great a coach there as here.

Everything works together or something pulling a piece apart sinks the whole ship. It has always been that way.

We have these debates all the time and I don't think you'll find someone say that Jerry wasn't involved in some capacity, at least not me. It's not an all or nothing proposition.....not then and not today.

But I don't underestimate what Jimmy brought to the table in that era or over estimate what Jerry contributed to the football side.

 

[Hostile]

We have these debates all the time and I don't think you'll find someone say that Jerry wasn't involved in some capacity, at least not me. It's not an all or nothing proposition.....not then and not today.

But I don't underestimate what Jimmy brought to the table in that era or over estimate what Jerry contributed to the football side.

No one under estimates what Jimmy brought. Not one single person. But it does seem a lot of people want to remove Jerry form the success picture.

You can't. Like it or not what THEY did together is what worked.

 

[Risen Star]

That is a great post.

I thought it was terrible. He is the Director of Player Personnel and he has no prior scouting experience.

If you believe that's a great post, I suggest you brush up on the successful NFL front offices.

 

[Risen Star]

No one under estimates what Jimmy brought. Not one single person. But it does seem a lot of people want to remove Jerry form the success picture.

You can't. Like it or not what THEY did together is what worked.

But they didn't. Jerry was scenery. He was so occupied with fixing the team's finances at that time he had zero input into personnel matters. This was the reason he eventually got "miserable" and ran Jimmy out of town with his nonsense.

Even if I was completely clueless and didn't know that at the time, I certainly would have figured it out in the decade that followed. Hey, wait a minute here....we've gone from the best personnel eye in the league to one of the worst. What are the odds the architect of that dynasty is still on the team?

Jerry's never in his life built a successful football team. Jimmy did it for him initially and then Parcells was brought in to fix his mess and turn the direction around. We still reap the rewards of his time here. We'd still be 5-11 every year without it.

But as for Jerry, the GM, building a core group of players on his own? It's never happened. It never will happen either because the guy can't evaluate talent. He was involved in that dynasty in the sense that he owned the team and signed the checks.

 

[Hostile]

But they didn't. Jerry was scenery. He was so occupied with fixing the team's finances at that time he had zero input into personnel matters. This was the reason he eventually got "miserable" and ran Jimmy out of town with his nonsense.

Even if I was completely clueless and didn't know that at the time, I certainly would have figured it out in the decade that followed. Hey, wait a minute here....we've gone from the best personnel eye in the league to one of the worst. What are the odds the architect of that dynasty is still on the team?

Jerry's never in his life built a successful football team. Jimmy did it for him initially and then Parcells was brought in to fix his mess and turn the direction around. We still reap the rewards of his time here. We'd still be 5-11 every year without it.

But as for Jerry, the GM, building a core group of players on his own? It's never happen. It never will happen either because the guy can't evaluate talent. He was involved in that dynasty in the sense that he owned the team and signed the checks.

You're making my points for me from previous discussions about his role.

It is still a symbiotic relationship. I would argue that Jimmy not winning without Jerry is just as compelling as Parcells not winning without the Mara's or the Hoodie is.

 

[cowboy_ron]

You're making my points for me from previous discussions about his role.

It is still a symbiotic relationship. I would argue that Jimmy not winning without Jerry is just as compelling as Parcells not winning without the Mara's or the Hoodie is.

Isn't this like trying to convince a teenager they're wrong?...Always swim upstream from the herd

 

[Risen Star]

You're making my points for me from previous discussions about his role.

It is still a symbiotic relationship. I would argue that Jimmy not winning without Jerry is just as compelling as Parcells not winning without the Mara's or the Hoodie is.

Jimmy didn't win without the scouting department he assembled in Dallas. He also didn't win without pulling a historic trade that rained down extra picks for him. It's hard to duplicate a dynasty.

BTW, Jimmy's time in Miami wasn't a failure. He rebuilt that defense in pretty short order. What he did there was much better than what Jerry was doing in Dallas.

You're suggesting Jerry had personnel input into that dynasty. That is a complete distortion of the truth.

 

[Risen Star]

Same reason as today with Jerry I suppose -- the workload associated with "running the business" is large enough that affects the ability to dedicate the time towards managing the cap, negotiating contracts, player evaluation, etc.

Or, when you don't win in nearly 20 years, you change direction. Starting with the GM.

 

[cowboy_ron]

Jimmy didn't win without the scouting department he assembled in Dallas. He also didn't win without pulling a historic trade that rained down extra picks for him. It's hard to duplicate a dynasty.

BTW, Jimmy's time in Miami wasn't a failure. He rebuilt that defense in pretty short order. What he did there was much better than what Jerry was doing in Dallas.

You're suggesting Jerry had personnel input into that dynasty. That is a complete distortion of the truth.

So in your weak comparison...Jerry is involved in the bad movements and none of the good ones...SUPER weak sauce dude...you look bad with those types of comparisons

 

[Hostile]

Jimmy didn't win without the scouting department he assembled in Dallas. He also didn't win without pulling a historic trade that rained down extra picks for him. It's hard to duplicate a dynasty.

BTW, Jimmy's time in Miami wasn't a failure. He rebuilt that defense in pretty short order. What he did there was much better than what Jerry was doing in Dallas.

You're suggesting Jerry had personnel input into that dynasty. That is a complete distortion of the truth.

Symbiotic relationship = input into personnel?

How?

I do believe Jerry is involved. I don't believe it is nearly to the level some of you imagine. In fact I have called him a figurehead and pretty much the evidence from this last draft weighs that out. He is the marketer. He is not the talent evaluator. His job is to give Jason whatever he wants.

Show me where he is not doing that.

 

[TwoDeep3]

Symbiotic relationship = input into personnel?

How?

I do believe Jerry is involved. I don't believe it is nearly to the level some of you imagine. In fact I have called him a figurehead and pretty much the evidence from this last draft weighs that out. He is the marketer. He is not the talent evaluator. His job is to give Jason whatever he wants.

Show me where he is not doing that.

There was a blurb from an article posted on the Draft Zone a few days before the draft. It was written by Broadus or some other writer and it commented that Jerry normally goes with the last guy he talks to about the draft.

The response from the fans here was that he needs to talk with his scouts last.

That has two distinct pieces of information that applies here.

1. Jerry is the final arbiter of what we do. He has said it over and over, and yet there are people defending him and suggesting he is nothing but a figurehead.

You hear Jones in a presser after Murray ripped off near 1000-yards last year that no he didn't agree Murray should be the starter. That after several years of this then maybe they would name him as such.

Now that may have been smoke, but I saw the interview and have a close friend that was at that interview and he didn't think Jerry was joking.

But be that as it may, why is Jerry giving interviews about on field decisions? Why does he run his mouth, always including himself in the decision making when he does?

And after over two decades of this, why do you not acknowledge that he is very much involved in the decision making?

Occam's Razor says "Whenever possible, substitute constructions out of known entities for inferences to unknown entities."

Jerry as a figurehead is an unknown quantity. Jerry stating over and over he makes the final decision is a known quantity.

2. While he may be making a decision based on input, which is different from being a figurehead, he may be getting better advice now.

But...

And this is a big but.

He also decided to allow Robinson to go and to pay Spencer top five money.

That was a decision of the GM and no one else.

This leaves us in a precarious spot. Both Dez and Austin miss time occasionally.

Dez hasn't learned to not fight for an unimportant extra yard and get hurt doing so. He plays tough, and I love it. But sometimes the better part of valor is to get them the next play and not be sidelined because of injury.

Austin is curious to me. He worked so hard to get where he was and then came in out of shape last year.

In any event, if either of these two go down we have Ogletree and Coale and a bunch of JAGs to back this up.

They have suggested they would go out and get someone.

Jabar Gaffney is there. Doesn't that thrill you, Hos? Gaffney with a star.

So the thinking was this. Allow a guy that showed he could step in and not only learn the playbook, but get in sync with the QB. Then he reeled off what....five straight games with TD's.

And then allow him to walk away.

But they had a talk with Otree and he now, after three years, has his mind right and has had the best off-season for him EVER.

This is where the rubber meets the road for me. Because that offense last year was pretty potent. Top 10, I believe. The passing game was higher than that.

So we take away a part that was working very well because of money. Jerry and Stephen could work that magic and retain the guy. But this was a decision about money.

And now we are one season ending injury away from scrubs as starting WR's for this team.

Or Jabar Gaffney.

I can deal with the offensive line as it is.

I can deal with the defensive line, because perhaps the corners and DBs in general will make this work.

But we definitely overpaid for Spencer.

And we are rolling the dice on Austin and Bryant staying healthy.

And still we have Larry, Curly, and Moe as the slot receiver if nothing happens to the starters.

At least they could have tied up Spencer long term and made it cap friendly to go get Robinson.

If Jerry came on TV taking credit for everything including air and told me the team had to keep the POS Spencer to keep Robinson, I would have said great move Jer!

As it stands, we kept the wrong guy.

Even if that old baller Jerry the GM had tossed the franchise on Robinson, not sure if that was possible, I would have rejoiced.

What have we got now?

Magic beans.

That makes no sense at all. Not if you are trying to milk the remainder of Romo's career and get him in position to play in an NFC Championship game.

The clock is ticking on Romo. That is the eye of the storm in my opinion. As Romo goes so does the team.

So by all means let's allow a guy that gets open and then can score to walk for a bunch of guys that cannot get on the field when he was here.

Ya feel me here, Hos? They kept the guys that could not supplant Robinson and now are telling me, the consumer, they made the right choice because they had a chat with Otree and Radaway was just about to be put on the 53 last year.

Really?

Taking away a proven weapon and betting on the come is a fool's errant.

I'll let you guess where the jester's hat sits at this very moment.

 

[junk]

Jerry is fine as an owner. He makes a ton of money, the team has a great stadium and, for the most part, he'll do whatever he can to help the team win.

It is when he injects himself in decisions related to personnel that things seem to go awry.

Jimmy had personnel control in his contract. He recently said on Twitter that he was in charge of all the trades as well.

 

[Dave_in-NC]

There was a blurb from an article posted on the Draft Zone a few days before the draft. It was written by Broadus or some other writer and it commented that Jerry normally goes with the last guy he talks to about the draft.

The response from the fans here was that he needs to talk with his scouts last.

That has two distinct pieces of information that applies here.

1. Jerry is the final arbiter of what we do. He has said it over and over, and yet there are people defending him and suggesting he is nothing but a figurehead.

You hear Jones in a presser after Murray ripped off near 1000-yards last year that no he didn't agree Murray should be the starter. That after several years of this then maybe they would name him as such.

Now that may have been smoke, but I saw the interview and have a close friend that was at that interview and he didn't think Jerry was joking.

But be that as it may, why is Jerry giving interviews about on field decisions? Why does he run his mouth, always including himself in the decision making when he does?

And after over two decades of this, why do you not acknowledge that he is very much involved in the decision making?

Occam's Razor says "Whenever possible, substitute constructions out of known entities for inferences to unknown entities."

Jerry as a figurehead is an unknown quantity. Jerry stating over and over he makes the final decision is a known quantity.

2. While he may be making a decision based on input, which is different from being a figurehead, he may be getting better advice now.

But...

And this is a big but.

He also decided to allow Robinson to go and to pay Spencer top five money.

That was a decision of the GM and no one else.

This leaves us in a precarious spot. Both Dez and Austin miss time occasionally.

Dez hasn't learned to not fight for an unimportant extra yard and get hurt doing so. He plays tough, and I love it. But sometimes the better part of valor is to get them the next play and not be sidelined because of injury.

Austin is curious to me. He worked so hard to get where he was and then came in out of shape last year.

In any event, if either of these two go down we have Ogletree and Coale and a bunch of JAGs to back this up.

They have suggested they would go out and get someone.

Jabar Gaffney is there. Doesn't that thrill you, Hos? Gaffney with a star.

So the thinking was this. Allow a guy that showed he could step in and not only learn the playbook, but get in sync with the QB. Then he reeled off what....five straight games with TD's.

And then allow him to walk away.

But they had a talk with Otree and he now, after three years, has his mind right and has had the best off-season for him EVER.

This is where the rubber meets the road for me. Because that offense last year was pretty potent. Top 10, I believe. The passing game was higher than that.

So we take away a part that was working very well because of money. Jerry and Stephen could work that magic and retain the guy. But this was a decision about money.

And now we are one season ending injury away from scrubs as starting WR's for this team.

Or Jabar Gaffney.

I can deal with the offensive line as it is.

I can deal with the defensive line, because perhaps the corners and DBs in general will make this work.

But we definitely overpaid for Spencer.

And we are rolling the dice on Austin and Bryant staying healthy.

And still we have Larry, Curly, and Moe as the slot receiver if nothing happens to the starters.

At least they could have tied up Spencer long term and made it cap friendly to go get Robinson.

If Jerry came on TV taking credit for everything including air and told me the team had to keep the POS Spencer to keep Robinson, I would have said great move Jer!

As it stands, we kept the wrong guy.

Even if that old baller Jerry the GM had tossed the franchise on Robinson, not sure if that was possible, I would have rejoiced.

What have we got now?

Magic beans.

That makes no sense at all. Not if you are trying to milk the remainder of Romo's career and get him in position to play in an NFC Championship game.

The clock is ticking on Romo. That is the eye of the storm in my opinion. As Romo goes so does the team.

So by all means let's allow a guy that gets open and then can score to walk for a bunch of guys that cannot get on the field when he was here.

Ya feel me here, Hos? They kept the guys that could not supplant Robinson and now are telling me, the consumer, they made the right choice because they had a chat with Otree and Radaway was just about to be put on the 53 last year.

Really?

Taking away a proven weapon and betting on the come is a fool's errant.

I'll let you guess where the jester's hat sits at this very moment.

I love this post.:clap2:

 

[CowboyMike]

When did this become a Jerry thread?

 

[JoseyWales]

I would argue that Jimmy not winning without Jerry is just as compelling as Parcells not winning without the Mara's or the Hoodie is.

Jimmy was missing two important things during his time in Miami.

1. He no longer had the advantage of knowing the college players himself as he did when he first arrived in Dallas. 2. Herschel Walker.

 

[Hostile]

When did this become a Jerry thread?

It's what this same crowd does. Call it keeping up with the Jones.

 

[Hostile]

Jimmy was missing two important things during his time in Miami.

1. He no longer had the advantage of knowing the college players himself as he did when he first arrived in Dallas. 2. Herschel Walker.

Three things, an owner who was willing to take risks. The thing I liked best about Jimmy was he had guts. His guts worked in Dallas. Not so much with the Dolphins.