is there such thing as choke/clutch QBs?

[JoeyBoy718]

I've always been a Romo basher, mainly for "choking" in key games. But I'm wondering if such a thing really exists. I was watching Numbers Never Lie and they were saying how the Lions went 1-6 in the final 7 games to blow a division with 2 injured QBs in Cutler and Rodgers. I mean that's pretty awful. Marcellus Wiley was saying it was Stafford's fault. Also, I know Peyton caught flack his whole career for performing much worse in the playoffs as opposed to his Earth shattering regular season performances. Is Peyton a choke artist or are those playoff defenses just too much for him? Brady won 3 Super Bowls playing solid (but not great) football. Then once he reached his prime, he never won again. How does a QB go from clutch to choke? Is it because the Patriot's defense hasn't been the same since their last Super Bowl win? If so, then why does Brady get so much credit for those 3 Super Bowls? These are just a few questions regarding the choke/clutch phenomenon. And of course, what's a choke thread without mention of Romo? As much as I like to hate on him, he went to the playoffs 3 out of 4 years with a top 13 defense, and the only year he missed was when he missed 3 games due to injury. Does that make those playoff streaks that Peyton and Brady had look less impressive? Romo could have done it too with a decent defense. Flacco and Big Ben did it many years. I'm just kinda philosophizing but I just want to get people's opinions. Now that I think about it, this is probably better suited for the Rant or NFL forum.

 

[perrykemp]

Tough question.

Aaron Rodgers is like 3-17 in comeback / 4th quarter situations yet NOBODY calls Aaron Rodgers a choke artist.

Tony Romo has like a 100+ QB rating in the same scenario and is considered a choke-artist by many.

Its obviously complicated.

Here is my theory -- once a QB wins a Superbowl -- the choke artist monicker won't stick anymore no matter how deserved.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

And didn't the Giants back into the playoffs both years or one of the years they won? So they almost shot themselves in the foot, but got lucky enough to barely make the playoffs, and then went hot and won the Super Bowl. How can a team almost have an epic choke job and then go on an epic hot streak?

 

[Kevinicus]

Facts: Romo performs better than most at "key" (I think all points are equally key, and making late game more important is silly) points in games.
All QB's have failures and INT's to end games, even the best (Brady ended 3 games with INT's this year alone, and should have had a 4th, but the Saints gave him another chance).
Winning/Losing is a product of team performance and no individual can win or lose a game by themselves or "carry their team".

 

[TwoDeep3]

I believe there is a mindset that causes an individual to freeze up during a high stress point. Make a poor decision in the heat of a crisis.

Why do some seem comfortable with those moments and others do not? I do not believe Romo exhibits this behavior as much as trying to do too much.

 

[DanteEXT]

Tough question.

Aaron Rodgers is like 3-17 in comeback / 4th quarter situations yet NOBODY calls Aaron Rodgers a choke artist.

Tony Romo has like a 100+ QB rating in the same scenario and is considered a choke-artist by many.

Its obviously complicated.

Here is my theory -- once a QB wins a Superbowl -- the choke artist monicker won't stick anymore no matter how deserved.

Rodgers I think has 5 now actually. Though the one against Bears this past Sunday MAY have been the first against a team .500 or better.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

I believe there is a mindset that causes an individual to freeze up during a high stress point. Make a poor decision in the heat of a crisis.

Why do some seem comfortable with those moments and others do not? I do not believe Romo exhibits this behavior as much as trying to do too much.

That's actually interesting. I can definitely see that being the case. It's not that Romo is afraid of the big moment. He obviously embraces it. It might be that Romo doesn't trust the players around him (or the system) so he tries to do too much, and makes awful mistakes in critical moments. It's hard to really get out of that mindset. I think the organization may have ruined him. You can kinda see it. For example, he still looked nervous behind our offensive line this season when they were obviously a much better unit. There were times when it looked like he was trying to dodge a defender or get rid of the ball when he didn't have to, just because he assumes the guys aren't doing their job.

 

[noshame]

When Tony focuses too hard he loses some of his peripheral vision. He trying so hard to see a receiver, he doesn't see things going on around him(a LB crouching down in between).

great thing to have if you're a baseball, tennis, or golfer, but doesn't serve you well as a nfl QB.
However, he's not a choker per se.

 

[LatinMind]

I've always been a Romo basher, mainly for "choking" in key games. But I'm wondering if such a thing really exists. I was watching Numbers Never Lie and they were saying how the Lions went 1-6 in the final 7 games to blow a division with 2 injured QBs in Cutler and Rodgers. I mean that's pretty awful. Marcellus Wiley was saying it was Stafford's fault. Also, I know Peyton caught flack his whole career for performing much worse in the playoffs as opposed to his Earth shattering regular season performances. Is Peyton a choke artist or are those playoff defenses just too much for him? Brady won 3 Super Bowls playing solid (but not great) football. Then once he reached his prime, he never won again. How does a QB go from clutch to choke? Is it because the Patriot's defense hasn't been the same since their last Super Bowl win? If so, then why does Brady get so much credit for those 3 Super Bowls? These are just a few questions regarding the choke/clutch phenomenon. And of course, what's a choke thread without mention of Romo? As much as I like to hate on him, he went to the playoffs 3 out of 4 years with a top 13 defense, and the only year he missed was when he missed 3 games due to injury. Does that make those playoff streaks that Peyton and Brady had look less impressive? Romo could have done it too with a decent defense. Flacco and Big Ben did it many years. I'm just kinda philosophizing but I just want to get people's opinions. Now that I think about it, this is probably better suited for the Rant or NFL forum.

I think there is. Game on the line, i think i'd want Eli Manning for that one play. I havent seen anybody as clutch as he is since probably Steve Young. In big games he just makes big throws.

 

[DanteEXT]

I think there is. Game on the line, i think i'd want Eli Manning for that one play. I havent seen anybody as clutch as he is since probably Steve Young. In big games he just makes big throws.

I good layer of Stickum on the WR helmet doesn't hurt either.

 

[durrrr]

confirmation bias

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

Allow me to mention the extremes: Joe Montana/Roger Staubach
and Tony Romo/Danny White (though Danny half more playoff wins and has lots more charisma)

 

[Rockport]

Allow me to mention the extremes: Joe Montana/Roger Staubach
and Tony Romo/Danny White (though Danny half more playoff wins and has lots more charisma)

I wondered who would be the first to turn this into a bash Romo thread.

 

[DallasEast]

Football is a team sport. Players are prone to making mistakes which cost their team wins. Tony Romo is no exception.

Throughout his career, Tony Romo alone has committed mistakes which have cost his team games. However, his solo responsible mistakes have been magnified by game losses which should be contributed in part or solely by the poor play of his teammates.

I would label Romo a choker if he had lost more games due to his solo mistakes than he has won. He hasn't. Likewise, I will not call him clutch because of the games he has lost on his own.

There are very few quarterbacks whom I have called clutch in 38 years of watching football at all levels. But there have been hundreds upon hundreds of high school, college and NFL games where I have routinely stated two simple observations. The first statement being, "That's the quarterback's fault." The second being, "What else can you possibly ask the quarterback to do?"

I yelled the former when Kyle Orton threw his second interception. I voiced the latter, both when DeMarco Murray put the ball on the carpet and Jason Witten did not catch a poorly thrown pass, which he and the best receivers in the game have routinely caught. Two turnovers. 10 points. Game over before Orton threw an uncatchable pass well behind Miles Austin late in the fourth quarter.

Please excuse the rambling everyone. The question of whether a quarterback is clutch or is a choker really gets me sometimes.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

I wondered who would be the first to turn this into a bash Romo thread.

I like to think of it more as a comparison.

But if Romo is not allowed in this discussion I would like to know so I can edit out Romo's name and replace it with . . . i dunno, someone who chokes at the worst times, has great PERSONAL stats and is rich beyond compare.

Best wishes and a happy news year

 

[durrrr]

"choke/clutch" are constantly abused in the sports world, and almost always applied to small sample sizes, which is ridiculous

 

[Super_Kazuya]

I like to think of it more as a comparison.

. . . i dunno, someone who chokes at the worst times, has great PERSONAL stats and is rich beyond compare.

Best wishes and a happy news year

That was Orton... well, except he's not rich and he has average stats.

Edit: rich, relatively speaking.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

"choke/clutch" are constantly abused in the sports world, and almost always applied to small sample sizes, which is ridiculous

Well, I created this thread with Matthew Stafford in mind. I was watching ESPN and they were saying how the Lions went 1-6 in the last 7 games of the season when they had a 2 game lead over 2 division rivals who were missing their starting QBs. And Marcellus Wiley was putting that on Stafford. It just made me curious. But that's not one single bad throw. That's 7 entire games. Obviously it's not all on Stafford, but Wiley was putting a lot of it on him. And I think Big Ben choked away 2 seasons in the final month. Eli did it a few times. Romo did it before if I'm not mistaken. So is checking away a stretch of games worse than choking away a final drive of a single game? And is it more on the team and less on the QB if it's a stretch of games?

 

[cej757]

I think there have been games against good teams were Romo has looked jittery in the pocket. I go back to the two New England games in 07 and 11 as examples. Tony looked nervous to start those games and it took him awhile to settle down. I think Tony does get too tight and presses when the offense has a couple of bad series. I also think the Head Coaches rectum gets tight too. So I don't know.

 

[JD_KaPow]

Start with the null hypothesis: QBs who make it to the point of starting in the NFL are not guys whose performance changes dramatically in "pressure" situations. Given that hypothesis, we'd expect a fairly normal distribution of late-game/final-drive/playoff performances: some guys will do better than they normally do, some will do worse, most will do about the same. Which is pretty much what we see. This will be impacted by some specific things that aren't character-related: defenses are better in the playoffs, some guys do better against certain types of defenses than others, etc.

I don't believe that anyone who's made it to this level has a problem with performing under pressure. They've been doing it their whole lives. And I don't think there's any solid evidence pointing otherwise.