is there such thing as choke/clutch QBs?

[theSHOW]

Believe it or not, many Giants fans still think Eli Manning is a bad QB despite having won 2 SBs.

because he is a bad QB.

 

[joseephuss]

Peyton Manning has a SB ring and some people still think he is a choker.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

That is why this thread was started. And then we can parley this into a manziel thread which in turn will solve our QB issues.

It's not but ok. You didn't even read the original post.

 

[birdwells1]

It's all perception. When somebody tries to define "choke" or "clutch," it ends up being more art than science.

Any time FOX or NFLN comes up with a stat to show how Romo is a choker, they have to be very, very careful how they set each of the parameters in order to keep guys like Brady and Rodgers from appearing there next to Romo in the results. They're playing to people's perceptions, after all, and no one perceives Brady and Rodgers that way.

When people say you are a choker they are saying that when the pressure of the situation increases that person's performance decreases. If a person is truly a chocker then he won't be able to get to a super bowl let alone win one, so in the case of Brady, Brees, and Rodgers they've won on the biggest stage and performed well. In that case its hard for the choker label to stick when they have already won the ultimate prize in their profession, no matter what they do afterwards.

 

[theSHOW]

It's not but ok. You didn't even read the original post.

Romo doesn't have the advantage of a coach who knows how to help him finish games. Tony's stats are not bad at all when Dallas needs a Captain Comeback imitation. Yeah JoeyBoy, I didn't mean to put it on you when I mentioned the Romo bashing that comes from these threads. I read the entire thread. I especially liked the part about Clint Longley making that clutch comeback

 

[OhSnap]

It always seems like a QB that flops in the big one is being asked to do too much or he's having a bad game and doesn't have a team good enough to carry him. It's mostly perception. If Brett Favre was as good as he was perceived to be he would have won 4 SB's. But maybe he was good enough to win 4 SB's but whats the odds of ANY team keeping a defense thats good enough to get to the SB every year that they have a SB worthy QB? Not bloody likely, too many moving parts. If you have that good QB your doing good to get the defense it takes to win allot of big games for more than 3 or 4 years out of his career in the age of free agency and he's gonna be carrying you in between while you try to find all the other missing pieces- so he ends up doing too much and it shows up when the other team is playing their hardest.

 

[theSHOW]

oh, and that ball up in Seatle was greased.

 

[percyhoward]

When people say you are a choker they are saying that when the pressure of the situation increases that person's performance decreases. If a person is truly a choker then he won't be able to get to a super bowl let alone win one, so in the case of Brady, Brees, and Rodgers they've won on the biggest stage and performed well. In that case its hard for the choker label to stick when they have already won the ultimate prize in their profession, no matter what they do afterwards.

Of course. A QB who's seen as a choker could have his worst season individually on what turned out to be his best team. If that team wins the Super Bowl, even while he played poorly, the perception would be that he's suddenly clutch.

 

[zack]

Of course. A QB who's seen as a choker could have his worst season individually on what turned out to be his best team. If that team wins the Super Bowl, even while he played poorly, the perception would be that he's suddenly clutch.

So true. Look at Cam Newton for instance. Stats last year were better than this year, yet they are saying he's arrived. Not really. Have you seen that defense?

 

[birdwells1]

Of course. A QB who's seen as a choker could have his worst season individually on what turned out to be his best team. If that team wins the Super Bowl, even while he played poorly, the perception would be that he's suddenly clutch.

Well If they won then he didnt do anything to lose the game (choke), it doesnt mean that he is clutch.

 

[Redball Express]

I've always been a Romo basher, mainly for "choking" in key games. But I'm wondering if such a thing really exists. I was watching Numbers Never Lie and they were saying how the Lions went 1-6 in the final 7 games to blow a division with 2 injured QBs in Cutler and Rodgers. I mean that's pretty awful. Marcellus Wiley was saying it was Stafford's fault. Also, I know Peyton caught flack his whole career for performing much worse in the playoffs as opposed to his Earth shattering regular season performances. Is Peyton a choke artist or are those playoff defenses just too much for him? Brady won 3 Super Bowls playing solid (but not great) football. Then once he reached his prime, he never won again. How does a QB go from clutch to choke? Is it because the Patriot's defense hasn't been the same since their last Super Bowl win? If so, then why does Brady get so much credit for those 3 Super Bowls? These are just a few questions regarding the choke/clutch phenomenon. And of course, what's a choke thread without mention of Romo? As much as I like to hate on him, he went to the playoffs 3 out of 4 years with a top 13 defense, and the only year he missed was when he missed 3 games due to injury. Does that make those playoff streaks that Peyton and Brady had look less impressive? Romo could have done it too with a decent defense. Flacco and Big Ben did it many years. I'm just kinda philosophizing but I just want to get people's opinions. Now that I think about it, this is probably better suited for the Rant or NFL forum.

Its not difficult..

Examples of Winning QBs
Meredith
Staubach
Aikman

Losers
Danny White
Tony Romo
Craig Morton
Steve Pelluer

See how this works?

 

[DFWJC]

I think there is. Game on the line, i think i'd want Eli Manning for that one play. I havent seen anybody as clutch as he is since probably Steve Young. In big games he just makes big throws.

I just don't see it.
I feel like I've possibly seen Eli throw game destroying picks at key moments possibly more than any current QB.
I guess you throw 20-30 picks a year, that will happen.

To be fair, I have seen him come up big several times too.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

Its not difficult..

Examples of Winning QBs
Meredith
Staubach
Aikman

Losers
Danny White
Tony Romo
Craig Morton
Steve Pelluer

See how this works?

So by your definition, any QB who hasn't won a Super Bowl is a loser. And since nobody wants a loser leading their team, they should cut them before they ever get a chance to win.

 

[Wood]

of course there are clutch vs choke QBs. Its why Joe Montana in the huddle is pointing out that its John Candy sitting in front row during super bowl and Donovan McNabb is throwing up from stress in his super bowl appearance. Stress can make or break people in pressure situations.

 

[Dday22t]

It's all media driven BS. If Romo played in Seattle he wouldn't get 75% of the negative things said or written about him.

 

[DandyDon1722]

of course there are clutch vs choke QBs. Its why Joe Montana in the huddle is pointing out that its John Candy sitting in front row during super bowl and Donovan McNabb is throwing up from stress in his super bowl appearance. Stress can make or break people in pressure situations.

Ok - explain this - shortly after Joe Cool pointed to Candy he had his team at the doorstep ready to throw the game winning TD pass and enjoy Super Bowl glory - except he didn't. He threw a perfectly thrown INT to Louis Billups of the Bengals who dropped it - that was game over and Montana chokes. The next play he threw the TD.

See how it works? You cannot use definitives because there are too many variables.

What if Danny White doesn't fumble against the Niners? What if Crayton catches Romo's pass for a TD against the Giants or Fasano in the same game?

Winners, chokers or benefactors of fate?

 

[Wood]

Ok - explain this - shortly after Joe Cool pointed to Candy he had his team at the doorstep ready to throw the game winning TD pass and enjoy Super Bowl glory - except he didn't. He threw a perfectly thrown INT to Louis Billups of the Bengals who dropped it - that was game over and Montana chokes. The next play he threw the TD.

See how it works? You cannot use definitives because there are too many variables.

What if Danny White doesn't fumble against the Niners? What if Crayton catches Romo's pass for a TD against the Giants or Fasano in the same game?

Winners, chokers or benefactors of fate?

overtime you get a collection of evidence. Your right...not one single play can define if they are clutch or not. The example I gave about cool Joe was more peering into mind of guy who didn't allow the stress of a situation to affect 'who he was' and thus had dramatic success overall in in post-season. McNabb (and many others) is example of someone who internalized the stress in a different way that ultimately moved them away from the player we would see in regular season. I think in future there will be alot more analysis done in this area and used by NFL. Just this year researchers are now saying that stress is an allergy to some people.

 

[percyhoward]

Well If they won then he didnt do anything to lose the game (choke), it doesnt mean that he is clutch.

Absolutely right, but the perception would be otherwise, because most people don't look at it that closely. When you get into separating individual performance from team performance, then you're getting away from what drives mass perception of a team sport.

Look no further than this page of this thread for examples.

 

[SultanOfSix]

Romo's a choke artist because he plays on the Cowboys. The only team he's been on that had a shot at winning the SB was the 2007 team, and it lost to one that played phenomenally in the post season and won the SB beating a team that was undefeated up until that point.

 

[Next Years Champ]

oh, and that ball up in Seatle was greased.

That play told us everything we needed to know about Romo.

We just didn't know it.

We know it now.

Romo's comeback against the Skins was against the worst team in the league.

Other than us.