Jason Campbell

[NIBGoldenchild]

He must not be very good at it in order for them to not have trust in him.

Or you're just finding whatever you can to diss him...which is the obvious answer here.

 

[CowboyWay]

They do, it's not a theory, because they have stated it publicly several times. They say things like "he's in a new system again, and taking time to learn it," "we want to make sure he works on his timing and routes first," "We'd like if he adjusted to the short slants before we let him throw deep." That's how we come up with these "theories" because the coaches spew it. It's not like we sit around all day making excuses for the guy.

Seriously, take a look at our long history of worthless QBS, and show me one example of when we ever latched on to a guy and made excuses for him. We say what we do about Campbell's potential, because he has proven that it's there, he is just unable to gain the confidence of the coaches, because we have top dollar receivers who can't hold on to a ball when it's thrown to theit hands.

All Skins fans hated Tony Banks, Heath Shuler, Mark Brunell, Jeff George, Danny Weurffel, etc. We aren't delirious, we just wish that we could use the talent we had instead of keeping it on a leash because our coaches have no balls.

Sounds like the coaches are making excuses to protect the kids psyche. Its pretty simple really.....if the kid could throw the ball accurately downfield, they'd let him do it. There's no "let him adjust to short slants first" stuff. Thats just ridiculous.

Look at the majority of this throws. The recievers are at a dead stop when the ball gets to them. The routes they make JC throw are so simple an 8th grader could throw them. I've never seen so many short passes, or recievers at dead stops in the NFL or college before. Its high school stuff.

Either campbell stinks, or his coaches think he stinks. Either way, its not good.

Personally, I don't think the kid has a very bright future in this league, I think he'd be a good back up qb.

You can tell me the "he's been in the system forever" argument all you want, but when collins came in last year, your team was completely different. They became very good very quickly. Just let that sink in a little bit. Collins was making throws that JC simply can't make. Throws with accuracy and touch. He was laying balls into recievers hands in mid stride. JC hasn't shown he can do that consistantly. I don't care about how many years Collins was in a particular "system". A qb can either throw the ball accurately or he can't. Makes no difference what system he is in.

And deep down, you know I'm right.

 

[DallasDW00ds0n]

Or you're just finding whatever you can to diss him...which is the obvious answer here.

lol youre not concerned the coaches dont trust Campbell to "throw over 15 yards"?

What do you think the reasoning is?

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

You can tell me the "he's been in the system forever" argument all you want, but when collins came in last year, your team was completely different. They became very good very quickly. Just let that sink in a little bit. Collins was making throws that JC simply can't make. Throws with accuracy and touch. He was laying balls into recievers hands in mid stride. JC hasn't shown he can do that consistantly. I don't care about how many years Collins was in a particular "system". A qb can either throw the ball accurately or he can't. Makes no difference what system he is in.

Aren't you arguing against your own point a little bit here? Todd Collins was drafted by Buffalo in the second round in 1995 to be the successor to Jim Kelly. In 1997 after Kelly retired, Collins was erratic as the Starter in Buffalo and was cut the next offseason. He was then shipped to KC where he stayed as a back-up and memorized Al Saunders playbook from 2001 through 2005.

The fact that Collins, after failing in Buffalo with a great rushing attack and Andre Reed/Eric Moulds as Wide-outs, could all of the sudden come in and play so well actually makes the point that he only became better because he spent time in the system.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

I'd take Q Carter > Jt o' Sullivan

JT isn't actually playing at this point so my original statement still stands for me at this point. But, yes, if JT was still starting for the Lions then I'd take Carter over him.

Or you're just finding whatever you can to diss him...which is the obvious answer here.

LOL! That's the worst attempt at making a defense for your guy, ever. The fact that your coaching staff has no faith in his ability to accurately throw things over the 15 yard mark is simply fans of other teams finding a way to diss him?

So what you're saying then is that Jason Campbell can be a beast throwing it over 15 yards, would be 100% better than he's been in the last month if he was allowed to do so, but the coaches are just being scared, and stubborn, and refuse to allow him to?


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTT!!!

Cause every coach in the NFL would risk their employment in the league by holding a QB back from doing things they know he can do just because they're afraid to let him do it.

The fact that they don't want him doing it, and they remark that they'd like him to learn to accurately hit the quick slants and short stuff first, tells you that every day in practice the coaches see a guy who is consistently inconsistent when they unleash him.

I'd think that the fact that they see him every day throwing the ball, and are not comfortable with unleashing him at this point, tells you that they have a good reason for it. That's why they're NFL coaches and you're a fan of an NFL team.

 

[DallasDW00ds0n]

^^^ EXACTLY! But hey, Im being ignorant.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

Sounds like the coaches are making excuses to protect the kids psyche. Its pretty simple really.....if the kid could throw the ball accurately downfield, they'd let him do it. There's no "let him adjust to short slants first" stuff. Thats just ridiculous.

Look at the majority of this throws. The recievers are at a dead stop when the ball gets to them. The routes they make JC throw are so simple an 8th grader could throw them. I've never seen so many short passes, or recievers at dead stops in the NFL or college before. Its high school stuff.

Either campbell stinks, or his coaches think he stinks. Either way, its not good.

Personally, I don't think the kid has a very bright future in this league, I think he'd be a good back up qb.

You can tell me the "he's been in the system forever" argument all you want, but when collins came in last year, your team was completely different. They became very good very quickly. Just let that sink in a little bit. Collins was making throws that JC simply can't make. Throws with accuracy and touch. He was laying balls into recievers hands in mid stride. JC hasn't shown he can do that consistantly. I don't care about how many years Collins was in a particular "system". A qb can either throw the ball accurately or he can't. Makes no difference what system he is in.

And deep down, you know I'm right.

Last year, in four games not including his abysmal playoff performance, Collins completed 63.8% of his passes for 222 yards/game with 5tds and 0 ints. This year, JC is completing 63.8% of his passes for 213.3 yards/game with 10tds and 4ints. Collins's numbers are better sure, but not by much. If you add in the playoff game, they are worse.

I really think it should be an uncontroversial position that the more repetitions a QB has in a system, the better he will be. JC will be better next year. And if we look at his statistics we see that he has been improving each year anyway.

2006 2007 2008
Completions percentage 53.1 60.0 63.8
Yds/game 185.3 207.7 213.3
Yds/attempt 6.3 6.5 6.8
Tds/int 10/6 12/11 10/4
Win/Loss 2-5 6-7 7-5

If we are patient with JC, he will turn into a top ten QB, good enough to give us a shot against anyone.

 

[CowboyWay]

Last year, in four games not including his abysmal playoff performance, Collins completed 63.8% of his passes for 222 yards/game with 5tds and 0 ints. This year, JC is completing 63.8% of his passes for 213.3 yards/game with 10tds and 4ints. Collins's numbers are better sure, but not by much. If you add in the playoff game, they are worse.

I really think it should be an uncontroversial position that the more repetitions a QB has in a system, the better he will be. JC will be better next year. And if we look at his statistics we see that he has been improving each year anyway.

2006 2007 2008
Completions percentage 53.1 60.0 63.8
Yds/game 185.3 207.7 213.3
Yds/attempt 6.3 6.5 6.8
Tds/int 10/6 12/11 10/4
Win/Loss 2-5 6-7 7-5

If we are patient with JC, he will turn into a top ten QB, good enough to give us a shot against anyone.

I don't think you give up on JC yet. I don't think he'll be great, but what do I know. You have alot of time and money invested in him. The problem is, isn't he a free agent at the end of this year? A decision is going to have to be made, thats for sure.

You can't measure statistics when comparing JC to Collins. They don't tell the whole story. Collins could stretch the field. Test Defenses. JC can't or the coaches don't let him. His yards per game is close but look at how he plays. JC throws the ball to Moss 3 yards downfield and lets moss run for 17 yards. Collins completes the pass 20 yards downfield to moss. While it might look the same on the stat sheet, its completely different when judging qb's.

People like to talk about JC's completion percentage or his lack of INT's. But look at his passes. dump offs. You should complete 80% of those in this league. His lack of INT's can be explained because of short passes as well.

I guess what I'm saying is the kid just isn't a difference maker. Not at this point in his career anyway. People like to blame the coaches for not "opening up" the playbook, but now its two different coaching staffs that won't open it up for him. This has to tell you something about the kid.

Other people like to talk about his lack of protection, but again, alot of it is on JC. Look at our Oline when we had bledsoe. Outside of Big, this is the same Oline that everyone laughed at when Bledsoe was under center. Romo came in and all of a sudden they were great???? No way. That responsibility is on the qb alot of the time. Not all, but alot of it.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

I don't think you give up on JC yet. I don't think he'll be great, but what do I know. You have alot of time and money invested in him. The problem is, isn't he a free agent at the end of this year? A decision is going to have to be made, thats for sure.

You can't measure statistics when comparing JC to Collins. They don't tell the whole story. Collins could stretch the field. Test Defenses. JC can't or the coaches don't let him. His yards per game is close but look at how he plays. JC throws the ball to Moss 3 yards downfield and lets moss run for 17 yards. Collins completes the pass 20 yards downfield to moss. While it might look the same on the stat sheet, its completely different when judging qb's.

People like to talk about JC's completion percentage or his lack of INT's. But look at his passes. dump offs. You should complete 80% of those in this league. His lack of INT's can be explained because of short passes as well.

I guess what I'm saying is the kid just isn't a difference maker. Not at this point in his career anyway. People like to blame the coaches for not "opening up" the playbook, but now its two different coaching staffs that won't open it up for him. This has to tell you something about the kid.

Other people like to talk about his lack of protection, but again, alot of it is on JC. Look at our Oline when we had bledsoe. Outside of Big, this is the same Oline that everyone laughed at when Bledsoe was under center. Romo came in and all of a sudden they were great???? No way. That responsibility is on the qb alot of the time. Not all, but alot of it.

He's signed through next year. I hope we give him an extension this offseason because I think he has shown enough to believe in him. As for the idea that his stats are exaggerated by yards after the catch, I think that is just part of the west coast offense. Zorn is trying to get the ball into the hands of the receivers quickly and in stride to let them make plays. It can be frustrating to watch at times now, but I think the offense will progress. Some of the blame lies with the WRs too. For example, Zorn said this week that Randle El had been running some routes incorrectly because he was trying to get past the first down marker before making his cut and getting the ball whereas the play called for him to make the cut immediately, get the ball, and run for the first.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

A big part of the problem for JC is no doubt his WR's. I've said before that Moss and ARE are not exactly stellar, or consistant, targets to have out there.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

A big part of the problem for JC is no doubt his WR's. I've said before that Moss and ARE are not exactly stellar, or consistant, targets to have out there.

Which is why it's frustrating that our 2nd round picks have been so slow to get on the field.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Which is why it's frustrating that our 2nd round picks have been so slow to get on the field.

Well with Kelly I think it's going to turn out to be that he simply isn't any good. The few times he's been on the field he's done absolutely nothing. Against the GMen on Sunday he had a couple of chances and dropped the passes.

At least Thomas showed some sort of ability on his end around.

 

[CowboyWay]

He's signed through next year. I hope we give him an extension this offseason because I think he has shown enough to believe in him. As for the idea that his stats are exaggerated by yards after the catch, I think that is just part of the west coast offense. Zorn is trying to get the ball into the hands of the receivers quickly and in stride to let them make plays. It can be frustrating to watch at times now, but I think the offense will progress. Some of the blame lies with the WRs too. For example, Zorn said this week that Randle El had been running some routes incorrectly because he was trying to get past the first down marker before making his cut and getting the ball whereas the play called for him to make the cut immediately, get the ball, and run for the first.

I didn't realize you got him one more year. Thats good. It gives you a little more time to see what he's got. And you're right as far as the west coast system and short passes, however, Gibbs didn't run a west coast system and they still had JC throwing very short passes. Two different coaching systems and both of them don't want to let the kid have the keys to the car so to speak. I hate to say it, but that speaks volumes. The recievers you have are bad, I'll give you that. Moss can be deadly one week, then have butterfingers the next, so you really don't know what to expect from him on a week to week basis, but I've always admired the heart he's shown, although I could do without him making an *** of himself after every first down reception. Irvin did the same thing though, and it didn't bother me near as much.

I will admit that they have done better thus far than I expected as far as their record goes. But lately, they have stunk. I wonder if its just other teams figuring out Zorns system a little?

 

[CowboyWay]

Aren't you arguing against your own point a little bit here? Todd Collins was drafted by Buffalo in the second round in 1995 to be the successor to Jim Kelly. In 1997 after Kelly retired, Collins was erratic as the Starter in Buffalo and was cut the next offseason. He was then shipped to KC where he stayed as a back-up and memorized Al Saunders playbook from 2001 through 2005.

The fact that Collins, after failing in Buffalo with a great rushing attack and Andre Reed/Eric Moulds as Wide-outs, could all of the sudden come in and play so well actually makes the point that he only became better because he spent time in the system.

I don't think so. Collins had 2 years under his belt before he became the starter. That may not be enough for some qb's. Heck, look at Drew Brees. he stunk until season 4.

I just don't think it has much to do with memorization of a system. You can either throw a football into tight spots or you can't. Collins proved that he could last year. But he had 10 years to mature to that point.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

I didn't realize you got him one more year. Thats good. It gives you a little more time to see what he's got. And you're right as far as the west coast system and short passes, however, Gibbs didn't run a west coast system and they still had JC throwing very short passes. Two different coaching systems and both of them don't want to let the kid have the keys to the car so to speak. I hate to say it, but that speaks volumes. The recievers you have are bad, I'll give you that. Moss can be deadly one week, then have butterfingers the next, so you really don't know what to expect from him on a week to week basis, but I've always admired the heart he's shown, although I could do without him making an *** of himself after every first down reception. Irvin did the same thing though, and it didn't bother me near as much.

I will admit that they have done better thus far than I expected as far as their record goes. But lately, they have stunk. I wonder if its just other teams figuring out Zorns system a little?

Yeah I think Zorn's playcalling has been a little predictable. He seems to think that the way to keep defenses guessing is by alternating between run and pass which of course becomes completely predictable. He did try a couple of trick plays last week, the reverse to Thomas and the Randle El endaround-throw. Both of them were succesful, so hopefully he keeps trying a couple of those per game.

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

I don't think so. Collins had 2 years under his belt before he became the starter. That may not be enough for some qb's. Heck, look at Drew Brees. he stunk until season 4.

I just don't think it has much to do with memorization of a system. You can either throw a football into tight spots or you can't. Collins proved that he could last year. But he had 10 years to mature to that point.

I guess my point was that Collins did not throw into those tight spots when he was at the same point in his career as Campbell either. he only had his "break-out" season last year and that was because he knew the system so well that it was second nature to throw to a the "spot" where the wide-outs were supposed to be. Al Saunders runs a timing based offense, so Collins just threw where it was supposed to go with no second guessing required. Not so much with Campbell or Brunell.

Once again, I don't think Campbell will be a top tier QB, but I do believe that he has the tools that he could be a good QB in this league IF he is brought along in a system slowly. That appears to be the way that Zorn is working him in. I guess we will all know who is right by this time next year if Colt McCoy is starting for the Commanders with Mike Martz as their new Head Coach.

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

lol youre not concerned the coaches dont trust Campbell to "throw over 15 yards"?

What do you think the reasoning is?

The fact of the matter is, the coaches HAVE called plays for the deep ball. Yet three things have consistently happened when those plays have called

1) Campbell changed the play at the line of scrimmage due to changes he saw in the defense.

2) He checked down due to the coverage, in which case, this could mean he's afraid to throw deep or he's just trying to be careful with the ball.

or 3) He gets sacked, or hurried, and throws the ball to his read in the flats to avoid a sack.

Zorn has stated numerous times on the Sports Reporters on Tuesdays, he calls plays to go deep but it never works out.

Personally, I think situation 2 is happening more often then the others and Campbell should just force it down there more. I'm not too worried about him throwing a pick (like he did last week), it's a high risk play, those things are going to happen. Bottomline, you can't make something out of nothing. You have to actually attempt to get it down there to make more running lanes for Portis, and the problem isn't the coaches don't trust Campbell....Campbell doesn't trust his recievers to get the ball.

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

The fact that Collins, after failing in Buffalo with a great rushing attack and Andre Reed/Eric Moulds as Wide-outs, could all of the sudden come in and play so well actually makes the point that he only became better because he spent time in the system.

Furthermore, he was uncomfortable in the WCO in preseason, he showed none of the quick decision-making or accuracy that he did last year.

 

[NIBGoldenchild]

So what you're saying then is that Jason Campbell can be a beast throwing it over 15 yards, would be 100% better than he's been in the last month if he was allowed to do so, but the coaches are just being scared, and stubborn, and refuse to allow him to?
.

Wow....I didn't say any of that at all, lol. You're doing a lot of assuming, buddy.

 

[DallasDW00ds0n]

The fact of the matter is, the coaches HAVE called plays for the deep ball. Yet three things have consistently happened when those plays have called

1) Campbell changed the play at the line of scrimmage due to changes he saw in the defense.

2) He checked down due to the coverage, in which case, this could mean he's afraid to throw deep or he's just trying to be careful with the ball.

or 3) He gets sacked, or hurried, and throws the ball to his read in the flats to avoid a sack.

Zorn has stated numerous times on the Sports Reporters on Tuesdays, he calls plays to go deep but it never works out.

Personally, I think situation 2 is happening more often then the others and Campbell should just force it down there more. I'm not too worried about him throwing a pick (like he did last week), it's a high risk play, those things are going to happen. Bottomline, you can't make something out of nothing. You have to actually attempt to get it down there to make more running lanes for Portis, and the problem isn't the coaches don't trust Campbell....Campbell doesn't trust his recievers to get the ball.

Well first Id like to say thanks for coming here and giving us Cowboys fans a different view while not causing trouble.

This may be legit, but you have to understand it does come off sounding bullish. How many QBs are having this trouble, I mean even Thygpen has more TDs. Im not trying to sound like a jerk, it just comes off like an excuse. Im not saying you are making the excuse, it just sounds like to me either Campbell or Zorn are making the excuse.

Something just isn't adding up.