Jerry improving as a GM?

[Hostile]

:laugh2: And maybe someday you'll understand why the way Jerry runs things is a detriment to the Cowboys success.

Even if they are making decisions as a "group", it isn't working. Hasn't for quite some time. In fact, the only team this team has made forward advances under Jerry's ownership was when they had a strong football person providing the direction of the franchise.



Whoops, CB. I was listing positions and got ahead of myself. Sometimes words are confusing. Like "decisions" and "analysis"

How did I know any response would be preceded by the laughing icon?

The difference is I can accept the typo, tease you about it, and move on. You can't.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

This is pure semantics and isn't worth my time or yours. Who did the work to determine who to acquire Carr and Caliborne? We're talking about work here right? If I work for you and i tell you we need to switch from Ford Ranger's to Toyota trucks because they have a better warranty and lower insurance does that mean you researched the warranty? You have the final decisions.

You guys say I defend Jerry to the death, but here I am telling you he is barely involved and that upsets you too. It really gets old.

If I'm in a management position, why the hell would I make an important decision to invest millions of dollars into something without doing my own research? Would you expect me to just do it on a whim because you told me to? That's essentially what you're suggesting Jerry does. That he's just a robot who sits on his perch and signs the check when it's needed. You have no proof of this whatsoever.

Nobody is debating who does the scouting. No GM in the world spends hours pouring over tape of every prospect. That's why they have an army of scouts. But we DO know Jerry attends personnel meetings and film sessions. He is heavily involved in this entire process.

Ciskowski says: "Jerry, Claiborne is our highest ranked guy".

That's it. From there, it's up to Jerry to determine a.) If they're going to draft him and b.) How they're going to move up in the draft to acquire him. Maybe sometimes he does it just off the suggestion from his team. Maybe sometimes he does his own research.

I can't help but laugh at the thought that the guy who decides to pay Brandon Carr $50 million is "barely involved".

 

[junk]

How did I know any response would be preceded by the laughing icon?

Because it is laughable?

The difference is I can accept the typo, tease you about it, and move on. You can't.

Odd, that is what I thought I did.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

By the way, on Claiborne, it should be absolutely clear that they had a full day to determine whether they would take the deal or not and what they would pay. It was Stephen on the phone. Not Jerry.

Semantics.

There's only one man in that room who can say "We're moving up to get Claiborne."

It's not Tom Ciskowski.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

Yes, I do.

Unlike some, I don't mind his involvement, and I do think he is a football guy who knows more about the game than most posters here. But I am not going to pretend he's some super scout. Not for you or anyone else.

He isn't.

By the way, on Claiborne, it should be absolutely clear that they had a full day to determine whether they would take the deal or not and what they would pay. It was Stephen on the phone. Not Jerry.

Prove it.

 

[silver]

We are hit and miss with JJ at the wheel. We hit early in the 1st and 2nd rounds (sometimes) but have missed on the 4th round for 7 years in a row. Then we usually hit the 6th rounders. This is my biggest beef with Jerry, he's too inconsistent. He can be brilliant like when he overruled BP to take Ware, and he can pull the worst GM move in history to trade for Roy Willy for 3 first day picks and set back the franchise 2 years in one stroke. We have a mediocre record because of the mediocre GM. He's not totally inept. Just an average mediocre .500 GM. He's got one thing going for him though: he hasn't run out of cash. As long as he has cash he will carry on.

 

[Hostile]

If I'm in a management position, why the hell would I make an important decision to invest millions of dollars into something without doing my own research? Would you expect me to just do it on a whim because you told me to? That's essentially what you're suggesting Jerry does. That he's just a robot who sits on his perch and signs the check when it's needed. You have no proof of this whatsoever.

Nobody is debating who does the scouting. No GM in the world spends hours pouring over tape of every prospect. That's why they have an army of scouts. But we DO know Jerry attends personnel meetings and film sessions. He is heavily involved in this entire process.

Ciskowski says: "Jerry, Claiborne is our highest ranked guy".

That's it. From there, it's up to Jerry to determine a.) If they're going to draft him and b.) How they're going to move up in the draft to acquire him. Maybe sometimes he does it just off the suggestion from his team. Maybe sometimes he does his own research.

I can't help but laugh at the thought that the guy who decides to pay Brandon Carr $50 million is "barely involved".

Because you pay someone to do the research and report to you.

You're telling me Bill Gates personally does all the research and development for Microsoft?

 

[Hostile]

Semantics.

There's only one man in that room who can say "We're moving up to get Claiborne."

It's not Tom Ciskowski.

Decisions are not made by one man. They are made by analysis and discussion.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

Because you pay someone to do the research and report to you.

You're telling me Bill Gates personally does all the research and development for Microsoft?

I'm telling you Microsoft releases nothing without Gates' involvement. Do you think a group of guys just came to Steve Jobs and said "Hey Steve, we just invented this iPhone thing, is it cool if we slap an Apple logo on it and start selling it?" and Jobs was like "Go ahead, sounds great!"

What a General Manager/CEO/whatever would do is say.."OK team, we're looking for a Cornerback (or in Jobs/Gates case, a processing chip or whatever), let's get to work on that". Team does research, reports findings the manager. Ultimately, the MANAGER takes that information and makes the decision.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

Decisions are not made by one man. They are made by analysis and discussion.

"There’s no way that I would be involved here and not be the final decision-maker on something as important as players" - Jerry Jones.

""That is one of the luxuries of my position as owner as well as the ultimate decision maker, general manager and president..." - Jerry Jones.

Dig the hole deeper.

 

[Hostile]

I'm telling you Microsoft releases nothing without Gates' involvement. Do you think a group of guys just came to Steve Jobs and said "Hey Steve, we just invented this iPhone thing, is it cool if we slap an Apple logo on it and start selling it?" and Jobs was like "Go ahead, sounds great!"

What a General Manager/CEO/whatever would do is say.."OK team, we're looking for a Cornerback (or in Jobs/Gates case, a processing chip or whatever), let's get to work on that". Team does research, reports findings the manager. Ultimately, the MANAGER takes that information and makes the decision.

Oh wait, are you now agreeing with me? I believe you are. Suddenly the final decision is made after others do the ground work.

You can credit Jerry for the improvement of the secondary then. I'm not going to. Because all he did was agree to do what the analysis determined were the moves to make. He didn't figure the cap hit, scout the players, or any of the background checks, but according to you he improved the secondary because he okayed the anaylsis done.

Damn, if he wasn't our GM someone might want him. He can flat out run a team. <--sarcasm

 

[LatinMind]

Decisions are not made by one man. They are made by analysis and discussion.

But you dont think Jerry has input on that process?

 

[DOUBLE WING]

Oh wait, are you now agreeing with me? I believe you are. Suddenly the final decision is made after others do the ground work.

You can credit Jerry for the improvement of the secondary then. I'm not going to. Because all he did was agree to do what the analysis determined were the moves to make. He didn't figure the cap hit, scout the players, or any of the background checks, but according to you he improved the secondary because he okayed the anaylsis done.

Damn, if he wasn't our GM someone might want him. He can flat out run a team. <--sarcasm

There has never been a debate on my end about the legwork. That's an imaginary argument that only exists in your head.

We're no different than any other organization in the NFL. Every team has a salary cap expert. Every team has scouts. Every team has pro personnel directors. The GM delegates responsibilities to them.

If your argument is that Jerry sits there and does nothing but sign off on stuff, then you're basically saying that's what every GM in the NFL does. Just sits back in their high chair until one of their underlings tells them what to do.

Hmm.. maybe that's why guys like Ciskowski and Gamble want to be GM's so bad. What a cush job.

 

[Hostile]

There has never been a debate on my end about the legwork. That's an imaginary argument that only exists in your head.

We're no different than any other organization in the NFL. Every team has a salary cap expert. Every team has scouts. Every team has pro personnel directors. The GM delegates responsibilities to them.

If your argument is that Jerry sits there and does nothing but sign off on stuff, then you're basically saying that's what every GM in the NFL does. Just sits back in their high chair until one of their underlings tells them what to do.

Hmm.. maybe that's why guys like Ciskowski and Gamble want to be GM's so bad. What a cush job.

Now, when I say that CL and the others of his ilk lose their damned minds. Let's see how they will respond to you repeating what I tell you guys all the time.

No, I am NOT saying that is what every GM in the NFL does. I am saying that is what our GM does. I have been telling you guys for over a year that every team has cap guys. That every team has scouts and a main scout who funnels all of the information. I've been telling you all for over a year that GM is a title not a job description. Tex Schramm does not fit the job description as you guys have outlined. You're telling me he was not a GM? Bull. That was his title.

You have all patently rejected that GMs on different teams have different jobs. Just like you've all rejected that other teams do this too and that all owners are involved.

Slowly but surely each one of you is grasping that what I have been telling you for a long damned time is that our GM is not a talent evaluator. That when you throw your little fits about personnel that he is only partially to blame because he isn't a talent evaluator.

Gil Brandt
Bob Ackles
Larry Lacewell
Jeff Ireland
Tom Ciskowski

All talent evaluators.

Tex Schramm
Jerry Jones

Shrewd businessmen with "final say" which you yourself just admitted is based upon the hard work of others.

Thank you. I've only been saying this forever.

 

[Hostile]

You're saying one man doesn't make the decision.

Jerry is saying I make the decision.

Who's full of crap?

I can't figure out which one you guys are more hung up on.

"Final say" or the title of GM. It's like you see those things and can't see anything else. It's hilarious, but maddening to try and discuss.

Head Coach: "Jerry, I want Dez Bryant."

Jerry: "Tom, what have we learned about him?"

Ciskowski: "His Head Coach says he loves the game...fill in all kinds of detail...all signs indicate he's worth the risk."

Jerry: "Do it."



Good job Jerry?

Screw that. Good job Coach that wants him and Scouts that have done their jobs.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

Now, when I say that CL and the others of his ilk lose their damned minds. Let's see how they will respond to you repeating what i tell you guys all the time.

No, I am NOT saying that is what every GM in the NFL does. I am saying that is what our GM does. I have been telling you guys for over a year that every team has cap guys. That every team has scouts and a main scout who funnels all of the information.

You have all patently rejected that. Just like you've all rejected that other teams do this too and that all owners are involved.

Slowly but surely each one of you is grasping that what I have been telling you for a long damned time is that our GM is not a talent evaluator. That when you throw your little fits about personnel that he is only partially to blame because he isn't.

Gil brandt
Bob Ackles
Larry Lacewell
Jeff Ireland
Tom Ciskowski

All talent evaluators.

Tex Schramm
Jerry Jones

Shrewd businessmen with "final say" which you yourself just admitted is based upon the hard work of others.

Thank you. I've only been saying this forever.

Well that's where I have a problem. There is no evidence to suggest Jerry Jones is any less involved in that process than Thomas Dimitroff, Trent Baalke, Ozzie Newsome or any other General Manager in the NFL. If your theory that Jerry is essentially a figurehead is true, he wouldn't hold onto the "General Manager" title for dear life like he does.

Everything else, I agree. My issue has NEVER been the structure of the organization. It's the fact that the guy at the top of it isn't fit to make the decisions he's tasked with making. The guys you listed? They're scouts. Every organization has them. They don't make personnel decisions. Not here or anywhere else.

 

[Hostile]

But you dont think Jerry has input on that process?

I don't know how many times I need to tell you guys all owners are advised of impending moves. That is involvement.

 

[Hostile]

Well that's where I have a problem. There is no evidence to suggest Jerry Jones is any less involved in that process than Thomas Dimitroff, Trent Baalke, Ozzie Newsome or any other General Manager in the NFL. If your theory that Jerry is essentially a figurehead is true, he wouldn't hold onto the "General Manager" title for dear life like he does.

Everything else, I agree. My issue has NEVER been the structure of the organization. It's the fact that the guy at the top of it isn't fit to make the decisions he's tasked with making. The guys you listed? They're scouts. Every organization has them. They don't make personnel decisions. Not here or anywhere else.

Rob Ryan and Tom Ciskowski videos.

Jerry wasn't praised. He wasn't even mentioned. I call that evidence. It may be circumstantial in your eyes, but it's damned good circumstantial evidence.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

I can't figure out which one you guys are more hung up on.

"Final say" or the title of GM. It's like you see those things and can't see anything else. It's hilarious, but maddening to try and discuss.

Head Coach: "Jerry, I want Dez Bryant."

Jerry: "Tom, what have we learned about him?"

Ciskowski: "His Head Coach says he loves the game...fill in all kinds of detail...all signs indicate he's worth the risk."

Jerry: "Do it."



Good job Jerry?

Screw that. Good job Coach that wants him and Scouts that have doen their jobs.

No, it always goes back to the decision maker.

The GM should have more knowledge than those below him since he's making the final decision. So in your scenario, if it works out, Jerry should get the credit for hiring the right people to bring him that suggestion and being smart enough to agree with it. If doesn't work out, Jerry should get blamed for not vetoing it, as well as for apparently hiring people that don't know what they're talking about (for the latter, such an extreme statement would only apply after a string of bad incidents, not just one).

So yes, he should get credit for going with DeMarcus Ware instead of what others were telling him about Merriman.

Let's go back to you car analogy, with a different spin. You're buying a new car. You talk to people, do some reading on research done by others, talk to the salesperson, etc. But once you gather all that in, the decision is yours to make as the car buyer/general manager, is it not?

That's my problem with Jerry.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

Rob Ryan and Tom Ciskowski videos.

Jerry wasn't praised. He wasn't even mentioned. I call that evidence. It may be circumstantial in your eyes, but it's damned good circumstantial evidence.

Totally circumstantial and you know that, so why even bring it up? If you want to base an entire "Jerry isn't as involved as other GMs" on one offhand remark by Rob Ryan, that's your cross to bare.