Jerry improving as a GM?

[Supercowboy1986]

as hilarious i find this agrument between you two the real issue is just each's intrepration of what being "involved" is and thats why neither of you can agree with each other. but hey i will continue reading because its nice to read intelligent post with examples from each side. on a lighter note i just got on my lunch break and guess what? i'm eating tacos!

 

[Hostile]

No, it always goes back to the decision maker.

The GM should have more knowledge than those below him since he's making the final decision. So in your scenario, if it works out, Jerry should get the credit for hiring the right people to bring him that suggestion. If doesn't work out, Jerry should get blamed for not vetoing it, as well as for apparently hiring people that don't know what they're talking about (for the latter, such an extreme statement would only apply after a string of bad incidents, not just one).

Let's go back to you car analogy, with a different spin. You're buying a new car. You talk to people, do some reading on research done by others, talk to the salesperson, etc. But once you gather all that in, the decision is yours to make as the car buyer/general manager.

That's my problem with Jerry.

Okay, I really do think we have progress here. You have no idea how happy that makes me to say that.

Baltimore has a GM, Ozzie Newsome. As they go through the same scenario I just posted of a HC, GM, and Head Scout on our team, the GM then turns around to the Owner(s) and gets their okay.

Final say.

It is still the scouts and coaches who build the team. You cannot tell me you honestly believe Ozzie Newsome, whom I consider the best GM in the NFL, doesn't get his owner's okay.

That's my problem with the fairy tale you guys have dreamed up. It defies logic to think successful billionaires are willing pawns to GMs.

 

[Hostile]

Totally circumstantial and you know that, so why even bring it up? If you want to base an entire "Jerry isn't as involved as other GMs" on one offhand remark by Rob Ryan, that's your cross to bare.

I have other evidence though. I've asked. I literally have enver been guessing about this, and yes I know what I just posted will insult someone who hates my opinions. It should motivate them to ask for themselves, but it never does.

By the way, Jerry is more involved than most owners. I think we can agree with that.

Now, if you can simply give credit where it is due, we've reached an accord.

 

[DenCWBY]

In the offseason, Jerry did address our glaring need at cornerback extremely well. In the past three years we've also done pretty well in the draft. It's been some time since Jones' absurd trade for Joey Galloway and his drafting of Quincy Carter too high.

He seems to be allowing Garrett a lot of latitude in drafting at least. We'll see soon how well Jones addresses our obvious O- and D-line problems. If he does, maybe he's become a pretty good GM. Maybe there's hope. If he does another Galloway-type trade or drafts superstars and no lineman, I'll just hang my head and know, "Here we go again."

Fool me once. Fool me twice.
A leopard and his spots
Shall I go on...?

 

[Hostile]

as hilarious i find this agrument between you two the real issue is just each's intrepration of what being "involved" is and thats why neither of you cant agree with each other. but hey i will continue reading because its nice to read intelligent post with examples from each side. on a lighter note i just got on my lunch break and guess what? i'm eating tacos!

Thank you. I gained a ton of respect for Double Wing today, and I mean a ton. We have disagreed, but unlike so many others he keeps it about a discussion. Mad respect for him now.

 

[Irving Cowboy]

It defies logic to think successful billionaires are willing pawns to GMs.

You mean like Murchison and Bright did with Schramm?

 

[Hostile]

Fool me once. Fool me twice.
A leopard and his spots
Shall I go on...?

Sure. Bye. Write if you get work.

Maybe some employer is looking for someone to spout incomplete cliches when no one knows what the hell they have to do with the price of tea.

 

[Hostile]

You mean like Murchison and Bright did with Schramm?

You are sadly mistaken if you think they were not involved with their teams. Who gave Tom Landry the 10 year extension in 1965? Tex Schramm?

Who ordered Tex to fire Myers and hire Paul Hackett, and was doing the same to Ernie Stautner and ordering Landry switch the 3-4 before he sold the team to Jones?

~shower~

 

[Irving Cowboy]

I feel like my IQ just dropped 10 points.

 

[Hostile]

~snort~

Can't afford that.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

Okay, I really do think we have progress here. You have no idea how happy that makes me to say that.

Baltimore has a GM, Ozzie Newsome. As they go through the same scenario I just posted of a HC, GM, and Head Scout on our team, the GM then turns around to the Owner(s) and gets their okay.

Final say.

It is still the scouts and coaches who build the team. You cannot tell me you honestly believe Ozzie Newsome, whom I consider the best GM in the NFL, doesn't get his owner's okay.

That's my problem with the fairy tale you guys have dreamed up. It defies logic to think successful billionaires are willing pawns to GMs.

I wouldn't say "pawns", but yes, in most cases I believe that to be true. The whole reason for the President/GM job is because the owner delegates that personnel responsibility to someone they trust to do it. Because most owners have no football background and know they aren't fit to make those decisions. In fact, I think most General Managers have it written in their contract that they get "final say" on personnel issues. That's why every personnel guy in the league is dying to be a GM. They want that power. The same power a guy like Scott Pioli wanted when he left New England.

And in your scenario, Jerry Jones is Ozzie Newsome and Steve Bisciotti. So he doesn't need to take it to anyone else. He gets the same information Ozzie gets and then he makes that ultimate decision.

 

[Irving Cowboy]

Oh I can... trust me. But if I believe all your tales I'll go into the negative.

 

[CowboyGil]

One slightly unscientific method of evaluating Jerry is by the number of Pro-Bowlers he has drafted in the 1st and 2nd round -- the picks where you absolutely have to have a high success rate.

By Pro-Bowlers I am going to define it as players initially selected to the Pro-Bowl -- not guys who made it in as injury replacements (example Mike Jenkins for Antoine Winfield in 2009).

I am going to cheat a bit and start the analysis in 2006 which gives us 7 years of data and about 50 seasons of total players but the collection of Cowboys 1st and 2nd round draft picks:

2006

0 Probowls - Bobby Carpenter
0 Probowls - Anthony Fasono

2007

0 Probowls - Anthony Spencer

2008

0 Probowls - Felix Jones
0 Probowls - Mike Jenkins (did make it as a injury replacement once)
0 Probowls - Marty Bennett

2009

NA

2010

0 Probowls - Dez Bryant
0 Probowls - Sean Lee

2011

0 Probowls - Tyron Smith
0 Probowls - Sean Lee

2012

0 Probowls - Morris Claiborne

---------------------------------
Grand Total - 0 Probowls for the 11 players selected in the 1st and 2nd rounds from 2006 to today.

But isn't the general consensus that the Pro Bowl is a joke?

 

[Hostile]

I wouldn't say "pawns", but yes, in most cases I believe that to be true. The whole reason for the President/GM job is because the owner delegates that personnel responsibility to someone they trust to do it. Because most owners have no football background and know they aren't fit to make those decisions. In fact, I think most General Managers have it written in their contract that they get "final say" on personnel issues. That's why every personnel guy in the league is dying to be a GM. They want that power. The same power a guy like Scott Pioli wanted when he left New England.

And in your scenario, Jerry Jones is Ozzie Newsome and Steve Bisciotti. So he doesn't need to take it to anyone else. He gets the same information Ozzie gets and then he makes that ultimate decision.

Right!!!! Final say.

But where you miss a little, is Tom Ciskowski is also part Ozzie Newsome. Meaning the analysis of personnel.

 

[Hostile]

Never trust a cockroach.

~shower~

 

[DOUBLE WING]

So just to be clear, in what I'm describing as Jerry's duties, he gets full credit for vetoing the Shawn Merriman discussion and going with DeMarcus Ware. That's an example of exactly what I'm talking about. His staff brings him options, maybe they even make a suggestion, but he has the ultimate decision based on their research/his own research/his gut/roll of the dice/whatever.

But if we're giving him props for that, I'm sure as hell hammering him on the myriad of dumb decisions he's made too.

 

[Hostile]

So just to be clear, in what I'm describing as Jerry's duties, he gets full credit for vetoing the Shawn Merriman discussion and going with DeMarcus Ware. That's an example of exactly what I'm talking about. His staff brings him options, maybe they even make a suggestion, but he has the ultimate decision based on their research/his own research/his gut/roll of the dice/whatever.

But if we're giving him props for that, I'm sure as hell hammering him on the myriad of dumb decisions he's made too.

He never has from me.

I gave that credit to Jeff Ireland.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

Right!!!! Final say.

But where you miss a little, is Tom Ciskowski is also part Ozzie Newsome. Meaning the analysis of personnel.

I don't think either of us can really say how much or how little Ozzie is involved in actual "breaking down the game tape" player analysis compared to Jerry. And I certainly would hesitate to say Ciskowski is any more involved than the equivalent people to him in every other organization in the NFL. The Ravens have 22 people in their front office/personnel staff, so it isn't just Ozzie in there pouring over hours of tape every day. But he is intimately involved in the process of what the team is looking for and what direction they're going to go based on his staff's research, just like I believe Jerry is.

 

[DOUBLE WING]

He never has from me.

I gave that credit to Jeff Ireland.

But again, that goes back to my point. Parcells says we want Merriman, Ireland says we want Ware.

Ultimately it's up to Jerry. He's the "tiebreaker". These guys can all suggest whatever they want. And while Ireland gets props for pushing for Ware, it's ultimately Jerry that gets the credit for a.) having a guy in that position smart enough to vouch for Ware's talent and b.) sticking with that guy's suggestion.

 

[Hostile]

I don't think either of us can really say how much or how little Ozzie is involved in actual "breaking down the game tape" player analysis compared to Jerry. And I certainly would hesitate to say Ciskowski is any more involved than the equivalent people to him in every other organization in the NFL. The Ravens have 22 people in their front office/personnel staff, so it isn't Ozzie in there pouring over hours of tape every day. But he is intimately involved in the process of what the team is looking for and what direction they're going to go based on his staff's research, just like I believe Jerry is.

You are right. I can't. I give him a lot of credit because I respect him so much. It is entirely possible that credit belongs to Eric DeCosta who is very highly respected around the NFL.