CFZ Jets Matchup and What We Have Learned from the Giants

baltcowboy

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The Jets Breece Hall is big time but he is on a pitch count so the team can’t just run him all game. Cook actually will be the key for them. I don’t think the Jets want Wilson to throw so I expect their offense to play like the Cowboys did against the Rams last season. Cowboys must get ahead and stop the run.
 

visionary

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It’s not a myth. It’s an empirically corroborated fact.
Only because the data it is based on is imperfect. Unless you understand stats it will be tough ti explain but when you analyze data you have to ‘correct it’ for other variables that are going on and the data you are talking about is not corrected. Show me multivariate analysis or Cindex analysis showing this to be the case and then we can talk. I already discussed this with AdamJT13 several years back and he had to admit that he had no idea how the data he was analyzing was collected and that it was not corrected for other important variables.

Lets make it more simple, do you think NFL teams dont “know” this so called “fact”? They have amazing data analytics departments and are multi billion dollar businesses trying to win. So it woukd stand to reason that if you know it, they know it

If they know this, why does every single HC, DC and defensive captain say: we want to stop the run game as our first priority? Why?

It is because they know that an effective run game is the key
 

blueblood70

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The Jets Breece Hall is big time but he is on a pitch count so the team can’t just run him all game. Cook actually will be the key for them. I don’t think the Jets want Wilson to throw so I expect their offense to play like the Cowboys did against the Rams last season. Cowboys must get ahead and stop the run.
You mean The Jets will play much like we did with Cooper rush but that only works if you can keep the score down.....

But Dude Hall will not be much of A pitch count,

seriously... I realize he only had 10 carries but he had 12 yards per carry and went off.. So now they'll put them at 15 or 16 and they'll give cook 15 or 16.. They will do everything they can to keep this a defensive low scoring game and they can do that well right now... Our weakness in years past has been a team with a great defense and a strong run game...

All the holes they plug from last year to this year to help Aaron Rodgers be successful are still there this isn't the same jets team as last year.. So Zach Wilson will benefit some from what they did to help Aaron Rodgers.. people keep saying well yeah but with this zach wilson team there were 7 and 10.. This ain't last year they plugged a lot of holes...
 

ScipioCowboy

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Only because the data it is based on is imperfect. Unless you understand stats it will be tough ti explain but when you analyze data you have to ‘correct it’ for other variables that are going on and the data you are talking about is not corrected. Show me multivariate analysis or Cindex analysis showing this to be the case and then we can talk. I already discussed this with AdamJT13 several years back and he had to admit that he had no idea how the data he was analyzing was collected and that it was not corrected for other important variables.

Lets make it more simple, do you think NFL teams dont “know” this so called “fact”? They have amazing data analytics departments and are multi billion dollar businesses trying to win. So it woukd stand to reason that if you know it, they know it

If they know this, why does every single HC, DC and defensive captain say: we want to stop the run game as our first priority? Why?

It is because they know that an effective run game is the key
It really isn’t, though. The running game is only important insomuch as it helps your passing efficiency, which is where games are won and lost. The team that passes the ball more efficiently wins at least 80 percent of the time. Running well has absolutely no correlation to winning.

Let’s make this simple. To which position do front offices allocate the most salary and draft resources—quarterback or running back?

Boom.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Only because the data it is based on is imperfect. Unless you understand stats it will be tough ti explain but when you analyze data you have to ‘correct it’ for other variables that are going on and the data you are talking about is not corrected. Show me multivariate analysis or Cindex analysis showing this to be the case and then we can talk. I already discussed this with AdamJT13 several years back and he had to admit that he had no idea how the data he was analyzing was collected and that it was not corrected for other important variables.

Lets make it more simple, do you think NFL teams dont “know” this so called “fact”? They have amazing data analytics departments and are multi billion dollar businesses trying to win. So it woukd stand to reason that if you know it, they know it

If they know this, why does every single HC, DC and defensive captain say: we want to stop the run game as our first priority? Why?

It is because they know that an effective run game is the key
What hidden variables are you alleging would change the outcome?
 

visionary

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What hidden variables are you alleging would change the outcome?
Game situation has a ton of variables, are you trying to run out the clock, are you trying to get 1 yard on 3rd 1 or 3 or 4 or 5 yards, which down is the run on and what are your tendencies, how many is the defense playing in the box, if the defense is keying on the run and making it easier to throw it will look like tge run game wasnt effective and throwing won the game and a multitude of other variables that are not accounted for. Context matters

Bottomline is that the stats thrown around are based on garbage data without context and analyzed without accounting for said variables
 

visionary

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It really isn’t, though. The running game is only important insomuch as it helps your passing efficiency, which is where games are won and lost. The team that passes the ball more efficiently wins at least 80 percent of the time. Running well has absolutely no correlation to winning.

Let’s make this simple. To which position do front offices allocate the most salary and draft resources—quarterback or running back?

Boom.
Yeah, of course passing efficiency is important but it is much more efficient with an effective run game

Im not saying passing efficiently is not important, im just saying that blanket statements like “the run game has no correlation with winning” dont tell the whole story and IMO speaks to a lack of understanding

there is a reason offensive coaches say “we have to establish the run” and the defensive coaches say “we have to stop the run as our first priority”. Either theyre just stupid or the statement you made is inaccurate

Anyway, this debate just keeps going and going, so, im out
 

shabazz

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……..or one can just conclude that the home team is better overall and SHOULD win.
 

JoeKing

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This is going to be a much tougher game than many of you seem to think. That Jets defense is formidable. They will keep the score down. I wouldn't be surprised if the final score is something like 13-9 Cowboys.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Game situation has a ton of variables, are you trying to run out the clock, are you trying to get 1 yard on 3rd 1 or 3 or 4 or 5 yards, which down is the run on and what are your tendencies, how many is the defense playing in the box, if the defense is keying on the run and making it easier to throw it will look like tge run game wasnt effective and throwing won the game and a multitude of other variables that are not accounted for. Context matters

Bottomline is that the stats thrown around are based on garbage data without context and analyzed without accounting for said variables
Sure and situationally like at the end of games and with a lead, running effectively obviously helps you win. There is still no correlation to winning or scoring points in the aggregate.

It is one thing to say that things correlate and it be misrepresentative because of hidden variables. It is quite another when things do not correlate. Both change the distribution but to create correlation it has to change it in a very specific manner.

Football outsiders considers all that situational leverage. Unfortunately their site is down right now. Let's revisit this later.
 

visionary

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Sure and situationally like at the end of games and with a lead, running effectively obviously helps you win. There is still no correlation to winning or scoring points in the aggregate.

It is one thing to say that things correlate and it be misrepresentative because of hidden variables. It is quite another when things do not correlate. Both change the distribution but to create correlation it has to change it in a very specific manner.

Football outsiders considers all that situational leverage. Unfortunately their site is down right now. Let's revisit this later.
Yeah but correlation does not equal causation. In addition to what i said above, there is also the whole issue of multiple evaluations of the same data, ie multi-collinearity of variables, no reputable statistician will do that because it is not worth the paper it is printed on. When a drug company is evaluating a new drug, they have to go to the FDA apriori with a data analysis plan. They also have to outline the variables they will study for significance and what order they will analyze them in. This is all done before the trial even begins. So if they have submitted 10 variables and number 2 is not significant, they cannot even present the next 7 even if they turn out to be significant. This is because it is well understood that when you take a large database and just look for any correlation between factors a ton of things will come up as correlated by chance when in reality they are not, and vice versa.

Anyway, ive been down this rabbit hole with other posters and in the end it is: “yeah but” so it is not worth the time and effort. Like i said, show me multivariable analysis or C index analysis showing the run game is useless, then we can talk
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Yeah but correlation does not equal causation. In addition to what i said above, there is also the whole issue of multiple evaluations of the same data, ie multi-collinearity of variables, no reputable statistician will do that because it is not worth the paper it is printed on. When a drug company is evaluating a new drug, they have to go to the FDA apriori with a data analysis plan. They also have to outline the variables they will study for significance and what order they will analyze them in. This is all done before the trial even begins. So if they have submitted 10 variables and number 2 is not significant, they cannot even present the next 7 even if they turn out to be significant. This is because it is well understood that when you take a large database and just look for any correlation between factors a ton of things will come up as correlated by chance when in reality they are not, and vice versa.

Anyway, ive been down this rabbit hole with other posters and in the end it is: “yeah but” so it is not worth the time and effort. Like i said, show me multivariable analysis or C index analysis showing the run game is useless, then we can talk
Sure, mechanics and experimentation do. Since we don't have that I do not see what difference it makes.
 

EPL0c0

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It will be a defensive battle, but our Offense is much better than theirs. Imagine if we trade Rush to the Jets for a good round pick.
Their DL is good. This will test the run game and pass protection by the RBs.

As for Cooper Rush, I'd rather keep him. But if Jerry's gonna Jerry, I'd settle for no less than a 3rd. Ideally a 2nd.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Your conclusion is basically "since we cannot do controlled experiments we can never know anything."

In a way I agree with you particularly when it comes to the some of the softer sciences like economics when they speak with certainty. At the same time I won't say macroeconomics doesn't show us anything.
 

shabazz

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This is going to be a much tougher game than many of you seem to think. That Jets defense is formidable. They will keep the score down. I wouldn't be surprised if the final score is something like 13-9 Cowboys.
The important thing is that the Players know how tough this game is. Just like the rest of the free world, they are aware of the Hard knocks, and nonstop media drumbeat declaring the Jets super bowl bound.

Even the Rodgers injury isn’t enough for most people to discount them. Ballers on defense, and all the offensive skill positions.

Just thankful that we didn’t prep for Rodgers and wind up seeing Wilson instead. Wilson is the target

we layin for that boy……
 

baltcowboy

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You mean The Jets will play much like we did with Cooper rush but that only works if you can keep the score down.....

But Dude Hall will not be much of A pitch count,

seriously... I realize he only had 10 carries but he had 12 yards per carry and went off.. So now they'll put them at 15 or 16 and they'll give cook 15 or 16.. They will do everything they can to keep this a defensive low scoring game and they can do that well right now... Our weakness in years past has been a team with a great defense and a strong run game...

All the holes they plug from last year to this year to help Aaron Rodgers be successful are still there this isn't the same jets team as last year.. So Zach Wilson will benefit some from what they did to help Aaron Rodgers.. people keep saying well yeah but with this zach wilson team there were 7 and 10.. This ain't last year they plugged a lot of holes...
The Jets won those 7 games with a combination of Flacco, Moore, and Wilson. The fan base turned on Wilson so they had to deactivate him. Less than a year ago Hall tore his ACL. They are coming off a short week against a non AFC opponent with an elite defense on the road. Hall at best might get 10 carries. They plugged holes for Rodgers not Wilson.
 

Kevinicus

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It really isn’t, though. The running game is only important insomuch as it helps your passing efficiency, which is where games are won and lost. The team that passes the ball more efficiently wins at least 80 percent of the time. Running well has absolutely no correlation to winning.

Let’s make this simple. To which position do front offices allocate the most salary and draft resources—quarterback or running back?

Boom.
Three statements to look at here:

  1. The running game is only important insomuch as it helps your passing efficiency
  • The team that passes the ball more efficiently wins at least 80 percent of the time.



Three seems contradictory to 1 and 2 to me.
 

tyke1doe

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Previous to this year, since the post-Jimmy Johnson era, I would always have this feeling that when we started to look good, doom was around the corner.
Some how, some way, we'd lose the game we were supposed to win.
I scantly feel that way now.
I think this defense is legit.
We don't need much offense to win - only to manage the clock, score when the opportunity arises and not turn the ball over.
If we do that, this should be a cake walk.
If the Jets get behind by 14, this game is officially over.
I'm sorry, but I'm not a believer in Zack.
He ... WILL ... turn ... the ... ball ... over ... if ... pressured.
We should be 2-0 after this game.

Dallas 23
NY Jets 9
 

ScipioCowboy

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Three statements to look at here:





Three seems contradictory to 1 and 2 to me.
It’s not. A team with with a poor running game can win consistently as long as it passes efficiently. A team with a poor passing game cannot win consistently no matter how well it runs.

This is why Brady, Manning, and Rodgers can win Super Bowls with running backs you’ve never heard of. And Adrian Petersen and Derrick Henry have never been to one.
 
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