JG Offense Versus Top 5 Defenses

khiladi

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Do you watch the games, or do you just have an agenda and make crap up to fit your agenda??

taking a sample-size of a drive that isn't normal Garrett, does nothing for your case. Ignoring four drives prior to that drive where Romo overthrew Miles Austin, when they ran two times prior does nothing for your case. In fact, it does exactly opposite for your case.

This says all I need to know. the "sync" of the offense has nothing to do with turnovers. It has to do with players getting careless, it's execution. That you would even attempt to blame Garrett for this just means that I know where your opinions can be placed as far as I'm concerned. That would be here....

That 'careless' attitude, as I said before, gets us a score one drive and a turnover the next. It is the same old, Tony Romo will throw a couple of INTs, because he is a risk-taker. Guess what? That risk-taking got us those 2 TDs, but it also gets us fumbles and INTs. The fact is, you want to give credit to Garrett when we score, yet we are scoring because Romo is running around in the pocket, keeping plays alive with his feet. His carelessness is what leads to those scores. His recklessness is what leads to those scores. If garrett didn't have him, our sacks allowed would be up significantly, because of the nature of the passing game Garrett employs.

Tony Romo overcomes a lot of the suckiness that is Garrett..
 

dbair1967

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rangers71;2585085 said:
This thread has given me tired head. No matter what kind of stats you give to the Garrett haters they will never ever change their mind. It just doesn't matter. They will continue to gripe hoping for him to leave. Then when he leaves and become good elsewhere they will ***** and complain that Jerry let him leave. And then it will all be on Jerry. It's a never ending cycle. I for one am glad that Jason is still here. Sure he had some rough spots but people need to realize the other team has coaches also.

:hammer:
 

peplaw06

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khiladi;2585037 said:
Second Quarter, first drive:

Romo to Choice, checkdown, -1 yards...
Romo to TO, deep crossing pattern, 22 yard gain
Choice, 3 yards to left
Romo throws to Choice in the falt, for no gain, because nobody is open downfield.
Romo throws incomplete to Owens.

In that drive, Garrett ran the ball once, went deep twice. Drive took a total of 2 minutes and 40 seconds. Pathetic play-calling. yeah, Garret suckes.
On first down, Romo was blitzed by an untouched Bart Scott. On the deep pass to TO, the Cowboys kept both TEs in to block, the Ravens rushed 3 and dropped 8. So we had two patterns out in the play and Choice out of the backfield. TO ran a 15 yard pattern over the middle after Austin had run off the safeties deep.

On the play that Romo threw to Choice, it looked like a busted screen, because Davis chips on the DT Ngata then lets him go free to Romo. Romo didn't check down because nothing was open, he checked down because that's how the play was designed and because he was pressured.

On the last play, Romo wasn't ready for the snap, and Gurode jumped it. So no one was in sync, but it's surely not Garrett's fault.

Prior to that drive, last drive of the first:

Romo, short pass to barber, for 7 yards on a screen pass.
Barber to the left, with Proctor blocking, for 1 yard.
Barber for a -1 yard loss.

Total time of the drive, 3 minutes. Horrible play-calling.
So every drive that is three and out, is "horrible play calling?" This is so pathetic. The Ravens are a GOOD DEFENSE!!! Oh, and yes Procter lines up at LG, but nothing he did on either run contributed to Barber not getting the first. Barber was hurt too.

At 4:25 in the second:

Tony Romo, incomplete to Witten for no gain.
Choice, 2 yards running to right. dallas is in a 2nd and 10. Typical predictabily, garrett doesn't play manageable downs.
Tony Romo on an incomplete pass to Owens deep down the field.

Total time f drive, 1 minute and 15 seconds.
On this drive we started on our 2. Everyone struggles deep in their own end zone. Barber injured, how is it predictable to throw the ball on 1st down from the 2? Play one was playaction, Romo was pressured, and SHOCK there were two or three underneath routes. Romo threw to a triple covered Witten. 2nd down a run from our own 2, wow, really shocking there. How dare he? 3rd down, from the 5, in the SHOTGUN (how is that predictable?)!!! There were 5 routes, Witten ran a short out, Choice out of the backfield, Crayton ran out at the sticks an Owens and RW were deep. Romo threw it away because no one was open. But again, I don't see how you can fault Garrett here because we were so backed up.......... unless you're being irrational.

Again, dalls with 1:44 seconds left, dallas operating hurry-up:

TR pass to Choice, -1 yards.
2nd play, TR pass to Witten over the middle, for 8 yards
Very next play, no huddle by Romo, 9 yard gain with pass to Witten over the middle.
8 yard pass to Choice over the middle. Obviously check-down, with ravens playing the deep play.
Tony Romo, deep pass to Owens in the seam, incomplete
Next play, deep pass intended for Owens on the left, INT...

Their most yardage was gained in hurry up.. The 2nd quarter was pathetic..
again, we started at the 13 yard line.

first play was a completed pass out of bounds for a loss of one, so the clock was stopped and we huddled up. so the 8 yards to Witten was not out of the hurry up. 3rd down was no huddle, yes but a simple route. Nothing to credit romo over Garrett for. The pass to Choice he got out of bounds, so the clock stopped. We were at the 38 with 49 seconds and 1 timeout. You have to go down the field sometime, and we did on 2nd and short. TO was wide open and Romo overthrew him slightly, and TO didn't see the ball. Probably should have been a TD. How do you fault Garrett for this drive?? Oh right, agenda.

Regardless your theory about us being only successful in the no huddle has been obliterated.

It's like you're going to a play by play box score and trying to make judgments based on what they write. If you want to sound like you know what you're talking about WATCH THE GAMES!!!
 

peplaw06

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khiladi;2585069 said:
4th quarter, drive starting at 6:30:

3 no-huddles, 6 plays that were called out of shotgun, besides the no-huddles. Dallas again in hurry-up... One run called on a draw at 3rd and 1.
total drive time, 2:40 seconds.

Total drive time of next posssession that led to a TD, 1:56 seconds. Again, this offense was in hurry-up. The first series of this drive, Dallas went 2 and out, with a 3rd and 10 situation yet again. TR keeps playsalive with his feet, hitting Witten for 14. Again, no game manageability from Garrett. Just TR keeping plays alive with his feet.

Very next series, 2 and out, with a 3rd and ten situation again. 3rd and 10, Romo again finds Crayton deep. Same situations. No gamae manageability from Garrett.

Very nexy play, Romo is sacked in no-huddle. the franatical pace of this offense, again. It takes big chunks out of the field or TR gets sacked or gets a costly TO. Very next play, TR finds TO again deep.

The next series, Romo finds Witten down the seam.

Total time of the drive, 1:56 seconds. You think garrett had anything to do with that. Please...

Very next series, Dallas is in a 3rd and 20, with similar play-calling. Garrett calls a screen on 4th and 2. Pathetic....
Are you this dense? Your whole point has been that the hurry up (read no huddle) is where we're being successful. You're wrong.

Shotgun does not mean we're in hurry up mode.

If I was this clueless I would off myself.
 

peplaw06

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khiladi;2585086 said:
taking a sample-size of a drive that isn't normal Garrett, does nothing for your case. Ignoring four drives prior to that drive where Romo overthrew Miles Austin, when they ran two times prior does nothing for your case. In fact, it does exactly opposite for your case.

That 'careless' attitude, as I said before, gets us a score one drive and a turnover the next. It is the same old, Tony Romo will throw a couple of INTs, because he is a risk-taker. Guess what? That risk-taking got us those 2 TDs, but it also gets us fumbles and INTs. The fact is, you want to give credit to Garrett when we score, yet we are scoring because Romo is running around in the pocket, keeping plays alive with his feet. His carelessness is what leads to those scores. His recklessness is what leads to those scores. If garrett didn't have him, our sacks allowed would be up significantly, because of the nature of the passing game Garrett employs.
It's painfully obvious that you either don't watch the games, or when you do you're so blinded by an irrational hatred for someone that you blame every little mistake on him.

Either way, your opinion means nada.
 

khiladi

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peplaw06;2585105 said:
Are you this dense? Your whole point has been that the hurry up (read no huddle) is where we're being successful. You're wrong.

Shotgun does not mean we're in hurry up mode.

If I was this clueless I would off myself.

No, that is not my whole point. My whole point is that we are in hurry-up, which includes no-huddle. The fact that you run a no-hudel wtice in a series, shows that the team is in hurr-yup mode. And you know my point is valid, that is why you have tried to limit the argument to simply 'no-huddle'.

The fact is you have no case... Garrett sucks...
 

Maikeru-sama

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peplaw06;2585105 said:
Are you this dense? Your whole point has been that the hurry up (read no huddle) is where we're being successful. You're wrong.

Shotgun does not mean we're in hurry up mode.

If I was this clueless I would off myself.

Khiladi is just disagreeing with you, no need to take this type of tone.
 

peplaw06

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khiladi;2585120 said:
No, that is not my whole point. My whole point is that we are in hurry-up, which includes no-huddle. The fact that you run a no-hudel wtice in a series, shows that the team is in hurr-yup mode. And you know my point is valid, that is why you have tried to limit the argument to simply 'no-huddle'.

The fact is you have no case... Garrett sucks...
How can you be in a "hurry up mode" when you run the play clock down under 10 seconds?? That's what happens when we get in a huddle and Romo makes checks at the LOS.

Can you define your "hurry up mode?" Is that just when you get so hyped up on caffeine and adrenaline and hatred for Garrett because we're losing?
 

EPL0c0

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Maikeru-sama;2584314 said:
Again, Stats never really show the true story.

When one watches the games, then Jason Garrett's failures are alot more appearant.
Weren't the Cowboys 3-5 in those games? 3 of those 5 losses came in December when things mattered most.

Maikeru-sama is right...the stats alone don't tell the whole story.
 

khiladi

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On first down, Romo was blitzed by an untouched Bart Scott. On the deep pass to TO, the Cowboys kept both TEs in to block, the Ravens rushed 3 and dropped 8. So we had two patterns out in the play and Choice out of the backfield. TO ran a 15 yard pattern over the middle after Austin had run off the safeties deep.

On the play that Romo threw to Choice, it looked like a busted screen, because Davis chips on the DT Ngata then lets him go free to Romo. Romo didn't check down because nothing was open, he checked down because that's how the play was designed and because he was pressured.

On the last play, Romo wasn't ready for the snap, and Gurode jumped it. So no one was in sync, but it's surely not Garrett's fault.

So when is Garrett at fault when the offense is out-of-sync?


So every drive that is three and out, is "horrible play calling?" This is so pathetic. The Ravens are a GOOD DEFENSE!!! Oh, and yes Procter lines up at LG, but nothing he did on either run contributed to Barber not getting the first. Barber was hurt too.

Uh yes, every drive that is 3 and out is pathetic play-calling, when those 3 and outs happened continuously, one after another. Esepcially 5 in a two quarter span.

BTW, theogt posted a statistic that said Dallas first downs in the 2nd and 3rd quarters against the Ravens was equivalent to the worst teams in the league that played against the Ravens. While the Ravens may be a good defense, the ineptitude of the Dallas offense to do anything against the Ravens defense was more on the Cowboys than the great Ravens defense.

Further, Choice was playing well, so the Barber excuse doesn't wash. In fact, it can be leigitmately argued that Choice was running better than Barber this whole year. The fact thatGarrett very rarely employed play-action when Choice was running well, again is a makr on garrett. He has no ability to set-up the passing game with the run, or keep defenses honest. You can continue to make excuses for Garrett, but he suchs plain and simple.

BTW, I gues it was

Barber's fault when he fumbled in the eagles gae, because you need to defend garrett, right?


On this drive we started on our 2. Everyone struggles deep in their own end zone. Barber injured, how is it predictable to throw the ball on 1st down from the 2? Play one was playaction, Romo was pressured, and SHOCK there were two or three underneath routes. Romo threw to a triple covered Witten. 2nd down a run from our own 2, wow, really shocking there. How dare he? 3rd down, from the 5, in the SHOTGUN (how is that predictable?)!!! There were 5 routes, Witten ran a short out, Choice out of the backfield, Crayton ran out at the sticks an Owens and RW were deep. Romo threw it away because no one was open. But again, I don't see how you can fault Garrett here because we were so backed up.......... unless you're being irrational.

again, we started at the 13 yard line.

We were throwing on first the whole game. It is an established pattern. Further, we were down and garrett running play-action at a time when it usually isn't done is pathetic. Also, Choice was running well the whole game, so to buy the excuse that we didn't run because of a lack of Barber is absurd. Further, it was a seven-step drop yet again, not a three step drop. Amazing that Romo was pressured... That is sarcasm by the way. Well, not really considering Garrett is calling plays. The Ravens werent fooled a bit. And you wonder why Ray Lewis and Ed Reed made the comments they did.

You can continue to make excuses about what other teams do. The pattern isn;t confined to field position. Garrett is backed up, so he tried to throw deep instead of play the sticks. Amazing, also, that your two best receivers are running deep in that situation. Roy Williams goes deep as well, though he is how tall and how good at moving the chains? How effective was Roy the whole game in running these dee patters?

first play was a completed pass out of bounds for a loss of one, so the clock was stopped and we huddled up. so the 8 yards to Witten was not out of the hurry up. 3rd down was no huddle, yes but a simple route. Nothing to credit romo over Garrett for. The pass to Choice he got out of bounds, so the clock stopped. We were at the 38 with 49 seconds and 1 timeout. You have to go down the field sometime, and we did on 2nd and short. TO was wide open and Romo overthrew him slightly, and TO didn't see the ball. Probably should have been a TD. How do you fault Garrett for this drive?? Oh right, agenda.

Regardless your theory about us being only successful in the no huddle has been obliterated.

It's like you're going to a play by play box score and trying to make judgments based on what they write. If you want to sound like you know what you're talking about WATCH THE GAMES!!!

the evidence is right there. I brought up, and nothing has been obliterated by you. Hell, youve come up with some pretty good excuses now. Barber was injured, Dallas didn't have good field position, the Ravens defense is pretty good. But none of it comes on Garrett... keep the excuses coming.

3 and out after 3 and out... TOP, dallas lost by around 6 minutes. And 6 of those minutes came on only one drive in the end of the third and fourth of the Cowboys. Absolutely pathetic game managing by garrett... Pathetic...
 

khiladi

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peplaw06;2585131 said:
How can you be in a "hurry up mode" when you run the play clock down under 10 seconds?? That's what happens when we get in a huddle and Romo makes checks at the LOS.

Can you define your "hurry up mode?" Is that just when you get so hyped up on caffeine and adrenaline and hatred for Garrett because we're losing?

When you run 2 no-huddles in a less then two minute series, I think it is quite obvious what is hurry-up mode.
 

peplaw06

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khiladi;2585140 said:
So when is Garrett at fault when the offense is out-of-sync?
Most of the sync has to do with the players. Are they playing smart, are they executing? Are they snapping the ball on time, are they running the right routes. Garrett has nothing to do with the timing of the snap from Gurode to Romo.

Uh yes, every drive that is 3 and out is pathetic play-calling, when those 3 and outs happened continuously. BTW, theogt posted a statistic that said Dallas first downs in the 2nd and 3rd quarters against the Ravens was equivalent to the worst teams in the league that played against the Ravens. While the Ravens may be a good defense, the ineptitude of the Dallas offense to do anything against the Ravens defense was more on the Cowboys than the great Ravens defense.
We also scored 24 on their defense. They gave up more than that 3 times this season, and since Nov. 23, they gave up 7, 3, 10, 13, 24 and 7. Doesn't seem too inept to me.

Further, Choice was playing well, so the Barber excuse doesn't wash. You can continue to make excuses for Garrett, but he suchs plain and simple. So was it Barber;s fault when he fumbled in the eagles gane? Oh yes it was, because you need to defend garrett, right?
The fact that you keep saying Garrett's at fault for Barbers fumble is way more pathetic than Garrett's playcalling.

the evidence is right there. I brought up, and nothing has been obliterated by you. Hell, youve come up with some pretty good excuses now. Barber was injured, Dallas didn't have good field position, the Ravens defense is pretty good. But none of it comes on Garrett... keep the excuses coming.
We're both making excuses, the difference is mine are rational. You blame Garrett for everything. It's not on anyone else.... fumbles early snaps dropped passes. All because we're out of sync and it's Garrett's fault. You don't have to think to come up with that excuse. It's just convenient.
 

peplaw06

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khiladi;2585142 said:
When you run 2 no-huddles in a less then two minute series, I think it is quite obvious what is hurry-up mode.
Obvious? Obvious to me that the actual no-huddle was not successful at all, that we're more successful when we huddle. Just because we have a few choice plays in the no huddle doesn't mean we're hurrying. When we really hurried then we sucked in that game.

If you just have a feeling of some amorphous definition of "hurry up mode," you can make it mean anything you want, even when the commonly used definition of hurry up has been proven to be unsuccessful.
 

khiladi

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Most of the sync has to do with the players. Are they playing smart, are they executing? Are they snapping the ball on time, are they running the right routes. Garrett has nothing to do with the timing of the snap from Gurode to Romo.

Ah yes, two pro-bowl WRs have no idea how to run routes, one being a HoF receiver, who ran in the same system prior, having a pretty good year. The other, playing in the same system at detroit that Garrett ran. How logical is that. I guess Bennett doesn't know how to run routes, nor does Crayton. So even if we were to assum they don't know how to run routes, whose fault is that? Where is garrett during practice? Whose job is it to make sure everybody gets on the same page? Isn't that the job of the coach?

We also scored 24 on their defense. They gave up more than that 3 times this season, and since Nov. 23, they gave up 7, 3, 10, 13, 24 and 7. Doesn't seem too inept to me.

But we don't know how to run routes and execute, right? Imagine what this team would do with a competent OC. Thank our lucky stars we have Tony Romo and TO, and Witten. Hell, Garrett is lucky he didn't get the Rams job. Talk about being exposed as pathetic.

The fact that you keep saying Garrett's at fault for Barbers fumble is way more pathetic than Garrett's playcalling.

Keep trying... Do turn-overs happen when offenses are out-of-sync, and players are trying to make things happen? Is there a correlation or not? Simple question....

We're both making excuses, the difference is mine are rational. You blame Garrett for everything. It's not on anyone else.... fumbles early snaps dropped passes. All because we're out of sync and it's Garrett's fault. You don't have to think to come up with that excuse. It's just convenient.

yeah, like HoF receiver's don't know how to run routes is rational, especially in a system he ran last year. Yeah, keep believing it.

It is Garret's fault, just like our defense not performing was Stewart's fault. When Wade took over, we led the league in sacks and were pressuring the QB like crazy. Thanks to Garrett, and his lack of time management, our defense wore out.
 

khiladi

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peplaw06;2585164 said:
Obvious? Obvious to me that the actual no-huddle was not successful at all, that we're more successful when we huddle. Just because we have a few choice plays in the no huddle doesn't mean we're hurrying. When we really hurried then we sucked in that game.

If you just have a feeling of some amorphous definition of "hurry up mode," you can make it mean anything you want, even when the commonly used definition of hurry up has been proven to be unsuccessful.

They were 'hurry-up'. That is why 'hurry-up' offense is even a term in the NFL.
 

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gbrittain;2584312 said:
Thought this was interesting.

Dallas played the the #1, #2, #3, #4, and #5 rated defenses in the NFL. Wanted to see how Dallas compared.

#1 Defense Pittsburgh - Dallas put up 289 yards. Only Indy with 290, and the Titans with 322 did better. Not to mention we did that horrible weather is worth noting.

#2 Defense Baltimore - Dallas put up 327 yards. Only Indy with 334, Miami with 359, Houston with 355, and NY with 353 yards did better.

#3 Defense Philly - Dallas put up 380 and 298 yards. Only 2 teams did better than 380 yards and that was Washington with 388 and NY Giants with 401. With the next bar being 298 yards only the Falcons did better with 335 yards.

#4 Defense Washington - Dallas put up 344 and 315 yards. Only NY Giants with 354, NY Giants with 404, and 49ers with 359 did better than Dallas 344.
With the next bar being 315 only the teams already mentioned above did better than 315.

#5 Defense NY Giants - Dallas put up 321 yards (Sorry not taking into account a Brad Johnson led offense). Only Cinncy with 347 yards, Brown with 454 yards, Cardinals with 371 yards, Eagles with 331 yards, Panthers with 343, and Vikings with 328 did better.

So we played the #1 defense once, the #2 defense once, the #3 defense twice, the #4 defense twice, and the #5 defense twice. Half of our games came against the top 5 defenses in the NFL.

Romo missed 3 games, Barber our starting RB essentially missed the last 4 games, our second string RB missed from week seven on, and we lost our starting Guard and replaced him with 'Ole Procter and Dallas still finished 13 in offensive yardage in the NFL.


Excellent post.
 

AMERICAS_FAN

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This post "masters" the obvious: we played playoff-calliber defenses and failed to play well eough offense to make the playoffs.

Everyone should admit that it was time and time gain that the defense kept keeping the season alive; yet in the end the offense fell apart.

Thanks Jason! :rolleyes:
 

gbrittain

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AMERICAS_FAN;2585248 said:
This post "masters" the obvious: we played playoff-calliber defenses and failed to play well eough offense to make the playoffs.

Everyone should admit that it was time and time gain that the defense kept keeping the season alive; yet in the end the offense fell apart.

Thanks Jason! :rolleyes:

So can you admit that Dallas moved the ball better against Pittsburgh than all but two teams and we did it at their house in terrible conditions?

Can you admit that if not for an ill advised throw and poor special teams play that Dallas beats Pittsburgh?

Can you admit that Dallas O put up more points than the NY Giants O and Dallas won?

Can you admit as poorly as Romo performed that once he caught fire in the 4th quarter Dallas in all likelihood wins that game if not for an epic melt down by the defense and not the offense?

If you want to put the Philly game on Garrett then it smacks of not even trying to be objective in the least.

I mean I can admit when Garrett screwed up and things he needs to impove on...cough cough first Washington game as an example.

But no it pretty much appears to be Dallas did not make the playoffs, Garrett's fault. Offense was 13th in the league. Had nothing to do with injuries and playing the top 5 defenses 8 times.

Could somebody humor me and tell me what kind of impact playing those top 5 defenses 8 times had on our offense? I mean that is why offenses even good ones do better against say average and mid range defenses than they do the top 5 rated defenses.

Could somebody admit that losing Romo for three games may have had a negative impact on our offensive rankings?

Could somebody admit that for a pretty simple and poorly constructed offense that Dallas pretty much did better than most offenses that played the top rated defenses?

Does JG deserve some criticism? Absolutely. Show me a team that did not make the playoffs and a coaching staff for one of those teams that does not bare some blame.
 

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Maikeru-sama;2584550 said:
Yep.

However, a competent Offensive Coordinator would have scaled back the Offense.


He did. At least with Brad Johnson

and the ignorant haters called him " predictable ".

The bottom line is that people who are blasting Garrett because he's not a " genius " don't know what the pointed end of a football is even if they sat on one.

Garrett was never a " genius ", nor is he an " idiot ". He's a brilliant, young coordinator who will have terrific seasons and not so good years, just like any other coordinator in the league.

Funny thing is that the question was asked: Who would have done better than Garrett under the same environment that Garrett was under ?

I've yet to see an answer.
 
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