Jimmuh was reportedly offered the Texans HC job

Irving Cowboy

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abersonc said:
And my point is that the NFL established a rule (i.e., a law). The owners voted on this rule and approved it. The Texans have to follow that rule or else they will be fined. By your logic therefore the Texans don't have the right to break that rule.
And any owner worth his salt would take any fine that the league might levy against him for not following the Rooney RULE (as opposed to law) and would easily win. An owner is going to hire the best person available, period. Unless of course that owner is Dan Snyder.

Like I said... you don't see people complaining about the combine's racial ratio being like 4:1 in favor of African-Americans... Owners and GMs are going to draft the guy who helps them the most. (Again, unless he is Dan Snyder) :)
 

Maikeru-sama

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BrAinPaiNt said:
Whether they have good players or not...if a coach is good enough to turn that franchise into a contender than they will be considered a saint.

Look at the bengals before Lewis went there...many said he was a fool and that the bengals would never be winners.

Now he is looking like a genius because the worse the team is, the better you make it and the better you look in making it a good team.

Chances are if Lewis wanted a job with another team many would put him HIGH on their list because of what he has done with such a poor franchise.

Right

All im saying is they have some good young players....which most coaches look at when trying to decide if they want to try to become a miracle worker for a franchise.

Most of Houston's picks (in the first round at least) have turned out fine. The coaching staff needs to be blown up and they must go OL with their first pick in this draft.

I really think this is a job for Big Bill Parcells...too bad he is doing his own miracle work I-45 North :cool: .
 

Maikeru-sama

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Irving Cowboy said:
An owner is going to hire the best person available, period. Unless of course that owner is Dan Snyder.

Yeah right...like that always happen when your talking about MAJOR bucks and real power.

Irving Cowboy said:
Like I said... you don't see people complaining about the combine's racial ratio being like 4:1 in favor of African-Americans... Owners and GMs are going to draft the guy who helps them the most. (Again, unless he is Dan Snyder) :)

Huh?

Apples and Oranges...

Institutions such as the Army and Sports are some of the first places where Blacks made the most strides because it was so obvious through our play on tv and the valor shown on the battlefield that blacks were just as equal as whites.

Now, when those black members of the army or a football team get old and want to start getting some real power and controlling Multi-Billion Dollar companies...that is a different subject.


- Mike G.
 

Irving Cowboy

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mickgreen58 said:
Yeah right...like that always happen when your talking about MAJOR bucks and real power.
A guy who hires someone who he knows might not do as good of a job but simply because he is white will not be holding onto his money for very long. In today's NFL, you have to win NOW, and I'm tired of hearing how when a white coach is fired after 3 years of losing, or even ONE OR TWO years of losing, no one says a word... but when a black coach is fired after 3 years (ala Ray Rhodes in Philadelphia) people scream about him not being given a chance...


mickgreen58 said:
Huh?

Apples and Oranges...

Institutions such as the Army and Sports are some of the first places where Blacks made the most strides because it was so obvious through our play on tv and the valor shown on the battlefield that blacks were just as equal as whites.

Now, when those black members of the army or a football team get old and want to start getting some real power and controlling Multi-Billion Dollar companies...that is a different subject.


- Mike G.
Ummm.... no. Not apples and oranges. You cannot dominate one facet of sports (playing) and ignore the obvious discrimination, (for lack of a better word) that comes with it while screaming discrimination when there are not so many opportunites at ownership. The league has not shot down a black owner who has the assets required to own a team. Fact is, there are not a lot of African-Americans out there who have those assets, and those that do, probably don't want to be bothered with owning a team. For those that do want to own one, but don't have the assets, what do we do, give them what they need? No, not any more than you would make a football team reflect the racial makeup of their community just to promote harmony. Your team will flounder and the owner will be out of business. Case Closed.
 

Maikeru-sama

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Irving Cowboy said:
A guy who hires someone who he knows might not do as good of a job but simply because he is white will not be holding onto his money for very long. In today's NFL, you have to win NOW, and I'm tired of hearing how when a white coach is fired after 3 years of losing, or even ONE OR TWO years of losing, no one says a word... but when a black coach is fired after 3 years (ala Ray Rhodes in Philadelphia) people scream about him not being given a chance...

Go look at the ratio of black players to blacks in the Front Office and Head Coaching Positions. There is nothing wrong with finally coming to grips with the fact that there is a problem. Why would the NFL even come out with this policy if they didnt think so?

Irving Cowboy said:
Ummm.... no. Not apples and oranges. You cannot dominate one facet of sports (playing) and ignore the obvious discrimination, (for lack of a better word) that comes with it while screaming discrimination when there are not so many opportunites at ownership. The league has not shot down a black owner who has the assets required to own a team. Fact is, there are not a lot of African-Americans out there who have those assets, and those that do, probably don't want to be bothered with owning a team. For those that do want to own one, but don't have the assets, what do we do, give them what they need? No, not any more than you would make a football team reflect the racial makeup of their community just to promote harmony. Your team will flounder and the owner will be out of business. Case Closed.

Probably dont want to be bothered with owning a team....right?

Please see my intial comments in this very post.

Im just forming rebuttals to be a good sport. Stats and history are all on my side and prove me right.

I dont even want to get into the fact that there is quite of bit of evidence that when they do get jobs it is the Bengals, Cardinals, and Tampa Bays of the world.

I think giving individuals that have had a historical disadvantage a little bit of an opportunity is not a bad thing, even if some owners fly them up for "token/phantom" meetings knowing they are going to go with someone else all along.

Im glad the NFL is addressing this. They dont address it one group is going to get mad, they do address it another group is going to get mad.

Im cool with hiring the best person but history shows me that that is not always what the case is.

- Mike G.
 

Irving Cowboy

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mickgreen58 said:
Go look at the ratio of black players to blacks in the Front Office and Head Coaching Positions. There is nothing wrong with finally coming to grips with the fact that there is a problem. Why would the NFL even come out with this policy if they didnt think so?
Should we bring up the obvious disparity in the number of white players in any of the big three sports while we're at it? I didn't think so. The BEST players are on the field, and you won't hear one African American saying that that needs to be addressed.


mickgreen58 said:
Probably dont want to be bothered with owning a team....right?.
Yes, that's right.

mickgreen58 said:
Im just forming rebuttals to be a good sport. Stats and history are all on my side and prove me right.

I dont even want to get into the fact that there is quite of bit of evidence that when they do get jobs it is the Bengals, Cardinals, and Tampa Bays of the world..
What a revelation!!! Could it be because the Bengals, Cardinals, and Tampa Bays (of old) were the ones firing head coaches about every other year?? What don't you understand about that? Are you going to say next that the NFL needs to change their draft rules now because the better black athletes are being chosen earlier in the draft by the crappier teams? Give me a break, Mick. I respect most everything you have written in the past but now, you better start bailing out your boat because it's taking on water..

mickgreen58 said:
I think giving individuals that have had a historical disadvantage a little bit of an opportunity is not a bad thing, even if some owners fly them up for "token/phantom" meetings knowing they are going to go with someone else all along..
If it's "token/phantom" and you know it, then you SHOULD be irritated... that is more of a slap in the face than not even looking the way of a minority.

mickgreen58 said:
Im glad the NFL is addressing this. They dont address it one group is going to get mad, they do address it another group is going to get mad.
True... very true.

mickgreen58 said:
Im cool with hiring the best person but history shows me that that is not always what the case is..
Hindsight is always 20/20.
 

LaTunaNostra

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Irving Cowboy said:
Ummm.... no. Not apples and oranges. You cannot dominate one facet of sports (playing) and ignore the obvious discrimination, (for lack of a better word) that comes with it while screaming discrimination when there are not so many opportunites at ownership. The league has not shot down a black owner who has the assets required to own a team. Fact is, there are not a lot of African-Americans out there who have those assets, and those that do, probably don't want to be bothered with owning a team. For those that do want to own one, but don't have the assets, what do we do, give them what they need? No, not any more than you would make a football team reflect the racial makeup of their community just to promote harmony. Your team will flounder and the owner will be out of business. Case Closed.
There is no comparison between the domination of black athletes in pro football and the dearth of black coaches in the college and pro ranks. The former is the result of merit, the latter, the vestiges of overt discrimination.

At one time black athletes were deliberately kept out of professional and collegiate sports. Even in my memory as a fan, 'quotas' existed that limited the number of blacks on a team for the reason that white owners felt white fans would not buy tickets to see a team with many black faces. In particular, positions where 'brains' mattered, as opposed to speed, were kept white..the olines and the leadership position of QB. Teams were the classic 'oreos' by design. White on the inside where thinking counted, black on the outside where speed did.

One of the reasons why so many promising black high school QBs were shunted to other positions in college was the feeling white teammates would not follow their leadership. It was not until the mid sixties that many southern schools even accepted black athletes on the team, and when they finally did , it was largely as Bear Bryant said, because the teams who did play black athletes would beat the teams who didn't.

It has been a LONG long hard road for black athletes to have a level enough playing field in society to be able to get to the position where they could compete for professional sports jobs..and now they they can, the dominate based on ability, on merit.

The coaching ranks have long been a landmine of nepotism, old boyism, and connections. Retreads and 'known quanitities' being preferred over the unknown makes sense, but what the fear of the unknown leads to is newblood being kept out. Because the college ranks have been so difficult for minority coaches to break into, the pool of viable coaching candidates in the NFL has lagged far behind the playing field, where a meritocracy finally evolved.

The Rooney Rule was established not to force a black hire on a white owner, It was passed after extensive research by the NFL indicated the problem was the 'comfort level' of white owners was challenged by the idea of working with a black coach or GM. Because in our still largely segregated society, (no area has been integrated as well as the military, civilian life lags far behind) many folks don't mingle with folks from other backgrounds, the NFL felt it was expedient to get owners to at least interview a minority candidate or two..so that perhaps in the process of the interview, owners could see that blacks are not so different, and that ideally, the owners comfort level would be threatened.

The idea was that sitting face to face in an interview, listening to a minority coach who had every bit as much interest in winning as a white coach, owners might be persuaded to say to themselves ' gee I think I can work with this guy, he's not so different from me, afterall'.

It's a darm shame something like the Rooney Rule is needed at this late stage. But it's achieved it's aim - competent minority coaching candidates who may never have gotten an interview because the owner felt the gap between black and white is too vast to do business on a day to day basis now get an occasional foot in the door.

Rest assured, the NFL did not want to take this step. But their research on 'the comfort level' of white owners with minority candidates was the driving force.
 

TruBlueCowboy

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Wow! Reading the last page of this thread, you'd have no idea that this sucker was originally about Jimmy Johnson returning to the coaching ranks. :D

I hope Jimmy comes back to football. Hell, most of his assistant coaches in the 90's have been kicked out, or on their way out of the NFL. He'd certainly be able to find some help.
 

Maikeru-sama

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Irving Cowboy said:
Give me a break, Mick. I respect most everything you have written in the past but now, you better start bailing out your boat because it's taking on water..

Taking on water LOL very funny.

I could rip all this stuff you have stated to shreds but looks like Mrs LTN has done it better than I ever could.

Oh and I guess America's Team, the 49ers, Dolphins, and Raiders have all been just ripping it up and winning game after game after game. Yeah right.

Im glad Lewis and Crennell took the "sucker" jobs and are doing good things with them.

Again, not everyone is racist in the NFL. I am just on record stating I support the fact that they are at least trying to do something. For years they just turned a blind eye to it...my guess they caved in under this "24-hour news" day and age we now live in.

- Mike G.
 

Maikeru-sama

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LaTunaNostra said:
There is no comparison between the domination of black athletes in pro football and the dearth of black coaches in the college and pro ranks. The former is the result of merit, the latter, the vestiges of overt discrimination.

At one time black athletes were deliberately kept out of professional and collegiate sports. Even in my memory as a fan, 'quotas' existed that limited the number of blacks on a team for the reason that white owners felt white fans would not buy tickets to see a team with many black faces. In particular, positions where 'brains' mattered, as opposed to speed, were kept white..the olines and the leadership position of QB. Teams were the classic 'oreos' by design. White on the inside where thinking counted, black on the outside where speed did.

One of the reasons why so many promising black high school QBs were shunted to other positions in college was the feeling white teammates would not follow their leadership. It was not until the mid sixties that many southern schools even accepted black athletes on the team, and when they finally did , it was largely as Bear Bryant said, because the teams who did play black athletes would beat the teams who didn't.

It has been a LONG long hard road for black athletes to have a level enough playing field in society to be able to get to the position where they could compete for professional sports jobs..and now they they can, the dominate based on ability, on merit.

The coaching ranks have long been a landmine of nepotism, old boyism, and connections. Retreads and 'known quanitities' being preferred over the unknown makes sense, but what the fear of the unknown leads to is newblood being kept out. Because the college ranks have been so difficult for minority coaches to break into, the pool of viable coaching candidates in the NFL has lagged far behind the playing field, where a meritocracy finally evolved.

The Rooney Rule was established not to force a black hire on a white owner, It was passed after extensive research by the NFL indicated the problem was the 'comfort level' of white owners was challenged by the idea of working with a black coach or GM. Because in our still largely segregated society, (no area has been integrated as well as the military, civilian life lags far behind) many folks don't mingle with folks from other backgrounds, the NFL felt it was expedient to get owners to at least interview a minority candidate or two..so that perhaps in the process of the interview, owners could see that blacks are not so different, and that ideally, the owners comfort level would be threatened.

The idea was that sitting face to face in an interview, listening to a minority coach who had every bit as much interest in winning as a white coach, owners might be persuaded to say to themselves ' gee I think I can work with this guy, he's not so different from me, afterall'.

It's a darm shame something like the Rooney Rule is needed at this late stage. But it's achieved it's aim - competent minority coaching candidates who may never have gotten an interview because the owner felt the gap between black and white is too vast to do business on a day to day basis now get an occasional foot in the door.

Rest assured, the NFL did not want to take this step. But their research on 'the comfort level' of white owners with minority candidates was the driving force.

Mrs LTN you have just demonstrated that you can articulate what I cannot.

All hail the Queen :bow:

- Mike G.
 

jterrell

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cowboys#1 said:
why would you want to go to a team that sucks that bad!
jimmy made a good decision.

Because they are gonna have the top pick.
Because they are near his original hometown and close enough so he can still deep sea fish.
Because they will be better next year if only because they can't be worse.
Because the owner has deep pockets from the new stadium.
Because you dont want the Dolphins fiasco to be your last NFL experience.
Because the Texans have talent but no focus whatsoever.

Jimmy could have taken the Bucs job and lead them to Super Bowls but instead let his ego lead him to Miami where they were cap-strapped and lead by an aging gunslinger at QB with a shoddy defense and no running back. Exactly opposite of his "type" of team. IF he does not take another head coaching job I will regard him one of the most overrated coaches in the history of the NFL. FWIW Switzer did win a Super Bowl here with the team Jerry and Jimmy built so it didn't take a lot of great psychology or x's and o's as Jimmy loved to pretend when he was the head man. I still think Jimmy was one of the best judges of defensive talent in the history of the game but he has also proven he can flat out be a bad judge of character if only because he doesn't care about it at all.
 

jay cee

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Irving Cowboy said:
Like I said... you don't see people complaining about the combine's racial ratio being like 4:1 in favor of African-Americans... Owners and GMs are going to draft the guy who helps them the most. (Again, unless he is Dan Snyder) :)
That does not fly, because historically anyone could tryout for an NFL team, and they pick the players they think will perform best for them. That process has always been open.

That has not been the case when hiring coaches. That's why the league put that rule in place.
 

jay cee

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Rush 2112 said:
Thanks for the history lesson Rush 2112. I should not have used the word historically.

I was certainly not talking about the Jim Crow era. So you are 100 percent correct that the process for choosing players has not always been open.

And like LaTuna said, even when it opened to include some Black players, it still did not open for certain positions like O-line and QB.

So when you look at it closely, it is even more important that the League made the move to put the minority interview practices in place.
 

Shotgun Dave

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Here's the thing...

Will we ever (and I mean "we" as in "our culture") ever truly achieve equality if we're artificially granting a leg up to certain people because of their race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc?

I'm all for equality, but I believe we do a diservice to everyone when we say, for example, that minority (ie, black) candidates get "extra credit" for being black and thus are given preferred treatment over others - as happened at Michigan Law.

I know if I was going up for a promotion and I was getting a leg up because I was (whatever) I would always wonder in the back of my mind if I was as good as the competition. I think guys like Dungy (and guys like Art Shell before him) have proven that black coaches are in no way less competent than white coaches. Some rule requiring owners to interview black HC candidates is not likely to help, IMO. What happens when a coach that is truly qualified interviews and is not hired in favor of a white coach? Will he think he just got the interview because he's black? He might, and that would be a shame.

I say let the best man win. Owners these days don't care what race the HC is - they want the best man for the job.

I will grant you, however, that racism used to be a serious problem. i just don't see it anymore. I really don't. Maybe I'm around enlightened people, but I don't see it.
 

Shotgun Dave

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jay cee said:
And like LaTuna said, even when it opened to include some Black players, it still did not open for certain positions like O-line and QB.

Let's consider this for a second. Why would a (supposedly racist) HC start black players at certain positions and not others? Did the coaches racism disappear when deciding who to play on the o-line or QB? Of course not. Such a statement only supports the fact that racism doesn't exist when someone is focused on putting the best players on the field. Racism doesn't apply only here and there. It's constant or it isn't.

Why do people insist that everything and everyone is racist? it simply isn't so.
 

DeaconBlues

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Shotgun Dave said:
Here's the thing...

Will we ever (and I mean "we" as in "our culture") ever truly achieve equality if we're artificially granting a leg up to certain people because of their race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc?

I'm all for equality, but I believe we do a diservice to everyone when we say, for example, that minority (ie, black) candidates get "extra credit" for being black and thus are given preferred treatment over others - as happened at Michigan Law.

I know if I was going up for a promotion and I was getting a leg up because I was (whatever) I would always wonder in the back of my mind if I was as good as the competition. I think guys like Dungy (and guys like Art Shell before him) have proven that black coaches are in no way less competent than white coaches. Some rule requiring owners to interview black HC candidates is not likely to help, IMO. What happens when a coach that is truly qualified interviews and is not hired in favor of a white coach? Will he think he just got the interview because he's black? He might, and that would be a shame.

I say let the best man win. Owners these days don't care what race the HC is - they want the best man for the job.

I will grant you, however, that racism used to be a serious problem. i just don't see it anymore. I really don't. Maybe I'm around enlightened people, but I don't see it.

There's a grand difference between "getting a leg up" and not being interviewed or considered at all. The only thing the Rooney rule did was to guarantee that a minority coach would be interviewed. No one was given an advantage, and no white coaches were denied an opportunity.

Why would someone consider the opportunity to interview as "shameful?" Having an interview does not guarantee the job. I doubt any of the white coaches interviewed and turned down were shamed - why would the minority coaches feel that way?

I also say let the best man win. But until the late '90s, with only a few exceptions [Flores, Snell, Dungy, Rhodes], the only "best men" considered were white.
 

DeaconBlues

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Shotgun Dave said:
Let's consider this for a second. Why would a (supposedly racist) HC start black players at certain positions and not others? Did the coaches racism disappear when deciding who to play on the o-line or QB? Of course not. Such a statement only supports the fact that racism doesn't exist when someone is focused on putting the best players on the field. Racism doesn't apply only here and there. It's constant or it isn't.

Why do people insist that everything and everyone is racist? it simply isn't so.

Did your knowledge of the NFL start in 1990? Moving black players from QB to WR, from the OL to the DL and LB was commonplace from the '60s through the early '80s. It was not a coincidence that most of the first black QBs [Joe Gilliam, Doug Williams] came from black colleges, because major colleges move them from QB to other positions. The "dumb" black athlete was a myth that stubbornly persisted until the old guard coaches went away.
 

Maikeru-sama

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Rush 2112 said:


Rush to the rescue wink wink :laugh2:

I know one thing, when reading one of my Cowboy Books, they said Marshall, who was the owner of the Commanders basically said it would be a cold day in hell when a Black Player plays on his stadium. But of course he was also the idiot trying to keep Dallas from getting a Franchise.

- Mike G.
 
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